Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances

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Hectic said:
See, you would have a point if it was just Berbatov...Rooney and Giggs both were the same with Nani! Maybe not as much, but the actions were very much the same. It wasn't because Berbatov had some personal dislike with Nani and couldn't get over it, but that players were frustrated with his inability to act in the final third.

Also, when is Berbatov allowed to do this then? You are saying it's okay for Giggs, Scholes, even Rooney because they are senior figures who have been here for a long time. So if everyone played Berbatov shite balls through for the first year, he could never complain as he's not been here long enough? That doesn't make much sense, a player will complain regardless of how long they've served the club because the one thing they are being paid to do is perform, and when that doesn't happen, whether it's down to you or someone else, frustration will be expressed. Some deal with that like Scholes are prefer to molest opposition players legs, others react within the team.
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This is the point. Berbatov was doing no better than Nani a couple of seasons ago. Half of the time, Nani's "mistake" seemed to be an inability to read Berba's mind.

To my mind, Berba had absolutely no right to be having a go at anyone. He had to get his own shit in order first.

Now he's doing well, I wouldn't mind if he had the odd pop at others. He's been the main man this season. Strangely though, he doesn't seem to be doing it half as much now.
 
But that's under the assumption 'having a go' has some sort of negative impact on the players and is a inherently bad thing.

What most are saying is that it doesn't, and is experienced at every level of football. It's a part of the sport, I'm sure the players are aware of that, and don't read into it at all.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
This is the point. Berbatov was doing no better than Nani a couple of seasons ago. Half of the time, Nani's "mistake" seemed to be an inability to read Berba's mind.

To my mind, Berba had absolutely no right to be having a go at anyone. He had to get his own shit in order first.

Now he's doing well, I wouldn't mind if he had the odd pop at others. He's been the main man this season. Strangely though, he doesn't seem to be doing it half as much now.
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Thank goodness for that.

Berbatov can sleep easy now.
 
Hectic said:
But that's under the assumption 'having a go' has some sort of negative impact on the players and is a inherently bad thing.

What most are saying is that it doesn't, and is experienced at every level of football. It's a part of the sport, I'm sure the players are aware of that, and don't read into it at all.
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Maybe you're right.

Perhaps it just reminded me of the rumours that circulated about two similar players in similar positions a couple of years previously?

"Why do you keep onto the ball, why don't you pass to me? I am in position, I am the striker. Get the ball to me." - RVN to Ronaldo.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Maybe you're right.

Perhaps it just reminded me of the rumours that circulated about two similar players in similar positions a couple of years previously?

"Why do you keep onto the ball, why don't you pass to me? I am in position, I am the striker. Get the ball to me." - RVN to Ronaldo.
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You see, it is commonplace after all. Nothing to concern yourself about.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Maybe you're right.

Perhaps it just reminded me of the rumours that circulated about two similar players in similar positions a couple of years previously?

"Why do you keep onto the ball, why don't you pass to me? I am in position, I am the striker. Get the ball to me." - RVN to Ronaldo.
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Of course it can be an indication of a problem between two players, but I wouldn't ever put it as the actual cause of it.

It could intensify an issue between players who already don't like each other, but I can't see a player finishing a game and thinking back to an indicent involving a player raising his arms up in frustration.

Is that a quote, or just something he was rumoured to have said?
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Maybe you're right.

Perhaps it just reminded me of the rumours that circulated about two similar players in similar positions a couple of years previously?

"Why do you keep onto the ball, why don't you pass to me? I am in position, I am the striker. Get the ball to me." - RVN to Ronaldo.
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I wouldn't say the players are that similar for the purposes of this argument - from what I know it would seem to me that RVN and Ronaldo have bigger egos than Berbatov and Nani appear to have.

You should also bear in mind that Nani and Berbatov's perceptions of each other will be based on a lot more than what happens in the 90-180mins a week you see them together, in a high pressure situation, and that will have the strongest influence on how criticisms between the two players are received. Seeing as there are plenty of times when the two players do link up well in play, and there's a total absence of any evidence of the two having issues with each other off the pitch, I really don't think there's any cause for concern.
 
Hectic said:
Of course it can be an indication of a problem between two players, but I wouldn't ever put it as the actual cause of it.

It could intensify an issue between players who already don't like each other, but I can't see a player finishing a game and thinking back to an indicent involving a player raising his arms up in frustration.

Is that a quote, or just something he was rumoured to have said?
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I dunno what it is, to be honest, I actually got it from here (which isn't a great source but it does seem to be referencing an article by Graham Hunter of Setanta or something.

It was also mentioned on this garbled mess of a semi-deleted BBC webpage.

I don't necessarily think that any of this is proof of a more serious problem between Nani and Berbatov and that wasn't my point at all. I just felt that Berba wasn't in a position to be criticising anyone and that his chosen target was a bit of a soft one. It was bully behaviour.

The comparison to the situation with RVN and Ronaldo was to show that Fergie doesn't necessarily appreciate the older player picking on the kid, either.
 
Meh.

I think Berbatov has done well this season, it may be the title is determined on goal difference, and haven't we been crying out for games where we just rape (hehe) the opposition and stick 5 past the keeper? He looks more eager, more focused, more industrious, while retaining his silks, and anyone who questions his place in the squad right now has an agenda.

But when he got here, he was being compared to Cantona. He was hailed as the final jigsaw. He was deemed so important that instead of bedding him in gradually, like we did with hernandez, he knocked out Tevez, who at the time was in such good form that posters (Pogue in particular) made a thread saying Tevez should be starting over Rooney, who couldn't trap a bag of cement at the time. It's why I can never bring myself to hate Tevez, because IMO he was unfairly benched.

And Berbatov takes 2 seasons to settle! We'd get the occasional brilliant flick or stroke of genius from him, but mostly garbage, IMO. I didn't want him to come, and he just was not justifying his price tag, and starting over a better striker. The FA cup game against Everton was the final straw for me, the way he just took the penalty, making the effort of the likes of Welbeck, Evans and Macheda naught in one lackadaisal second.

The worse part is he is almost never selected for the big games. What other elite team in world football drops one of their best performers for every single big game? He was supposed to help in Europe, as the one who unlocks those tight defenses. How can he do that from the bench?

I'm glad he's made me eat most of my words this season. It does get a bit grating when the likes of Feed Me taunt those who questioned him all along, as if their doubts were not valid. He's a Manchester United player, period. Is he a special player? He isn't, and given what it took to get him, that's a minor disappointment. I want to see how he will perform in this crucial stretch of the season, and I'm hoping he will prove himself even further.
 
But it wasn't bully behavior. 'Chosen target'? Berbatov didn't survey the pitch, and think, aha, weak Portuguese, and then start tormenting him.
 
adexkola said:
Meh.

I think Berbatov has done well this season, it may be the title is determined on goal difference, and haven't we been crying out for games where we just rape (hehe) the opposition and stick 5 past the keeper? He looks more eager, more focused, more industrious, while retaining his silks, and anyone who questions his place in the squad right now has an agenda.

But when he got here, he was being compared to Cantona. He was hailed as the final jigsaw. He was deemed so important that instead of bedding him in gradually, like we did with hernandez, he knocked out Tevez, who at the time was in such good form that posters (Pogue in particular) made a thread saying Tevez should be starting over Rooney, who couldn't trap a bag of cement at the time. It's why I can never bring myself to hate Tevez, because IMO he was unfairly benched.

And Berbatov takes 2 seasons to settle! We'd get the occasional brilliant flick or stroke of genius from him, but mostly garbage, IMO. I didn't want him to come, and he just was not justifying his price tag, and starting over a better striker. The FA cup game against Everton was the final straw for me, the way he just took the penalty, making the effort of the likes of Welbeck, Evans and Macheda naught in one lackadaisal second.

The worse part is he is almost never selected for the big games. What other elite team in world football drops one of their best performers for every single big game? He was supposed to help in Europe, as the one who unlocks those tight defenses. How can he do that from the bench?

I'm glad he's made me eat most of my words this season. It does get a bit grating when the likes of Feed Me taunt those who questioned him all along, as if their doubts were not valid. He's a Manchester United player, period. Is he a special player? He isn't, and given what it took to get him, that's a minor disappointment. I want to see how he will perform in this crucial stretch of the season, and I'm hoping he will prove himself even further.
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I think that's a pretty fair summation of the situation with Berbatov.

Some people do seem to think that Berba-critics are willing him to fail when nothing could be further from the truth for most.
 
Well you can all bleat until you're blue in the face , I think Berba's having a wonderful season and this ridiculous slating of him , just when we are getting to the important part of thes season, is becoming tedious in the extreme
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
I think that's a pretty fair summation of the situation with Berbatov.

Some people do seem to think that Berba-critics are willing him to fail when nothing could be further from the truth for most.
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I think it's the fact that some people are still focusing on the negatives when there are so many positive things to talk about regarding Berba's season. Thankfully the critics seem to be in the minority at this point in time, but it does seem like certain people react strangely when he does well.

I think it was yourself who made a comment about his goal against Bolton, saying something like it wasn't a goal of a £30m striker. Tell me though, if it had been Rooney or Cheech or one of the twins or almost anyone else who stuck home that rebound, would you have been anything other than overjoyed that we'd pulled three points out of the bag near the death?
 
adexkola said:
Meh.

I think Berbatov has done well this season, it may be the title is determined on goal difference, and haven't we been crying out for games where we just rape (hehe) the opposition and stick 5 past the keeper? He looks more eager, more focused, more industrious, while retaining his silks, and anyone who questions his place in the squad right now has an agenda.

But when he got here, he was being compared to Cantona. He was hailed as the final jigsaw. He was deemed so important that instead of bedding him in gradually, like we did with hernandez, he knocked out Tevez, who at the time was in such good form that posters (Pogue in particular) made a thread saying Tevez should be starting over Rooney, who couldn't trap a bag of cement at the time. It's why I can never bring myself to hate Tevez, because IMO he was unfairly benched.

And Berbatov takes 2 seasons to settle! We'd get the occasional brilliant flick or stroke of genius from him, but mostly garbage, IMO. I didn't want him to come, and he just was not justifying his price tag, and starting over a better striker. The FA cup game against Everton was the final straw for me, the way he just took the penalty, making the effort of the likes of Welbeck, Evans and Macheda naught in one lackadaisal second.

The worse part is he is almost never selected for the big games. What other elite team in world football drops one of their best performers for every single big game? He was supposed to help in Europe, as the one who unlocks those tight defenses. How can he do that from the bench?

I'm glad he's made me eat most of my words this season. It does get a bit grating when the likes of Feed Me taunt those who questioned him all along, as if their doubts were not valid. He's a Manchester United player, period. Is he a special player? He isn't, and given what it took to get him, that's a minor disappointment. I want to see how he will perform in this crucial stretch of the season, and I'm hoping he will prove himself even further.
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What, so Berbatov notched 21 goals and 16 assists in two "mostly garbage" seasons, whilst it's a disaster that Tévez got "knocked out", when in his two seasons at United in the league, he got 19 goals and 9 assists?

It's not even as if he was knocked out. He played 1,877 minutes in the league in 08/09, whilst Berbatov played 2,564. Berbatov got almost twice as many league goals (9 to 5) and over three times as many assists (10 to 3) with only just over 25% more playing time.

I'd say SAF made the right call in keeping Berba over Tévez, wouldn't you? Especially as Berba has gone on to improve his goal tally year on year, and even with Tévez performing very well at a club where he is the focal point of most attacks and plays far more minutes, he's still getting outperformed by Berba in the productivity stakes.
 
MrK said:
I think it's the fact that some people are still focusing on the negatives when there are so many positive things to talk about regarding Berba's season. Thankfully the critics seem to be in the minority at this point in time, but it does seem like certain people react strangely when he does well.

I think it was yourself who made a comment about his goal against Bolton, saying something like it wasn't a goal of a £30m striker. Tell me though, if it had been Rooney or Cheech or one of the twins or almost anyone else who stuck home that rebound, would you have been anything other than overjoyed that we'd pulled three points out of the bag near the death?
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Hey, listen, when that goal went in, it could have been Ronald fecking MacDonald who scored it, I didn't care.

I've lost my appetite for this debate for the moment. I suspect I've been far too subjective in my criticism of Berbatov and I'm not liking myself for it.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
What, so Berbatov notched 21 goals and 16 assists in two "mostly garbage" seasons, whilst it's a disaster that Tévez got "knocked out", when in his two seasons at United in the league, he got 19 goals and 9 assists?

It's not even as if he was knocked out. He played 1,877 minutes in the league in 08/09, whilst Berbatov played 2,564. Berbatov got almost twice as many league goals (9 to 5) and over three times as many assists (10 to 3) with only just over 25% more playing time.

I'd say SAF made the right call in keeping Berba over Tévez, wouldn't you? Especially as Berba has gone on to improve his goal tally year on year, and even with Tévez performing very well at a club where he is the focal point of most attacks and plays far more minutes, he's still getting outperformed by Berba in the productivity stakes.
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I mentioned at the time. At the time, there was absolutely no justification IMO. Tevez is the attack of the city team, he creates and scores, in a way Berba has not done, so stats comparisons are meaningless. City are impotent upfront without him, can the same be said about Berbatov?

I didn't mean to make this a Tevez Berba debate again though. Berbatov is the United player at the moment. And he's the one I support.
 
adexkola said:
I mentioned at the time. At the time, there was absolutely no justification IMO. Tevez is the attack of the city team, he creates and scores, in a way Berba has not done, so stats comparisons are meaningless. City are impotent upfront without him, can the same be said about Berbatov?

I didn't mean to make this a Tevez Berba debate again though. Berbatov is the United player at the moment. And he's the one I support.
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:lol: What?

I think you'll find that he has done, more so than Tévez. How can stats comparisons be meaningless when they disprove what you are trying to argue?

city are hardly impotent up front without him as well. I suspect you're basing this largely on the Chelsea game, which they would have approached the same way and likely had a similar amount of attacking impetus with Tévez as they did at home to us or away to Arsenal, i.e. none. Before Chelsea, he missed 3 games in the league for city this year - they scored 8 goals. Almost 3 a game, whereas with him they have 37 in 27 - 1.37 a game. It's not exactly the lengthiest amount of games to talk about statistically, but it certainly damages your claim they are impotent without him.

I've heard several city fans question his finishing and greed, and a few claim he's not in their top 3 players, rating Silva, Kompany and Yaya ahead of him. That he's more important to city than Berba is to us is questionable looking on this season alone, when at times Berba almost single-handedly kept us in the title chase, along with Nani. Even if it is true, I don't really see what point it makes - city are not as good a football team as we are, hence it's not really a slight that they rely on one player more than we do. Charlie Adam is more important to Blackpool than Paul Scholes is for us, that doesn't mean he's a better player.
 
Nah. Our team is much better than City, and he's done a lot more for City than Berbatov has done for us. Nani and Vidic have been more important to us than Berba, it's not even close.

Can we just assume I have agreed with you and move on, for the sake of this thread?
 
Seeing as you didn't really address the bulk of what I just posted and instead just replied with what was initially your view and was never going to cease being your view, I'd say that would be the best course of action yes.
 
adexkola said:
Nah. Our team is much better than City, and he's done a lot more for City than Berbatov has done for us. Nani and Vidic have been more important to us than Berba, it's not even close.

Can we just assume I have agreed with you and move on, for the sake of this thread?
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Is our team really much better than City's
 
Yes. About 10 points better, to be exact.

Not that that particularly means anything, it's another odd point. We're much better than Sunderland, Darren Bent did more for Sunderland than Berbatov has done for us, but that doesn't mean he's the better player, nor necessarily that he has done a better job.
 
Alex said:
Is our team really much better than City's
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Team? Yes. Individually they have some very good players and can rival ours but, as a team I'd say we are quite a bit better right now. For now they are a glorified Birmingham to me - a team that is very well organized defensively but, attacking wise are a bit bleh. With the talent they have, obviously they can look good at times.

Tevez to City is what Rooney is for us, his presence alone makes them go up a notch. As much as I like Berbatov, I don't think he does that for United - which is when he steps on the field, takes the team up a level just by being there.

Still, I think that was part of the problem for Tevez when he was here and why I think Berbatov is a better fit, Berbatov knows his place and has his role which for the most part has been doing very well with. Maybe the expectation is for 30m that he is a talisman player but, not really his personality for me.
 
adexkola said:
Nah. Our team is much better than City, and he's done a lot more for City than Berbatov has done for us. Nani and Vidic have been more important to us than Berba, it's not even close.
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And? So now Tevez should be given credit for not having players as good as Vidic and Nani in his team?

Berbatov was Spurs' most important player. He went to a bigger and better club, Tevez went to a smaller and worse club.
 
That was not even the main point I was trying to make ffs

Face it, the way he came into the club (transfer fee, hyping, players he displaced) gave him a lot of ground to cover. It's understandable why the majority of United fans till recent have been underwhelmed with him for the past 2 seasons
 
Frustrated-Woman-computer.jpg
 
adexkola said:
That was not even the main point I was trying to make ffs

Face it, the way he came into the club (transfer fee, hyping, players he displaced) gave him a lot of ground to cover. It's understandable why the majority of United fans till recent have been underwhelmed with him for the past 2 seasons
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Not really, since the bitching done about those things were nothing really to do with him. It's not his fault if some foolishly compared him to Cantona. It's not his fault that an inflated market, a bidding war between us and city and us and having to pay off Tottenham to not report us led us to pay £30m for him. And it's certainly not his fault that some are unable to get over the inferior player (for us, at least) he replaced.
 
So basically we all agree he's been our 3rd or 4th best player this year, whilst being mediocre (at best) the last 2 seasons?
 
adexkola said:
I mentioned at the time. At the time, there was absolutely no justification IMO. Tevez is the attack of the city team, he creates and scores, in a way Berba has not done, so stats comparisons are meaningless. City are impotent upfront without him, can the same be said about Berbatov?

I didn't mean to make this a Tevez Berba debate again though. Berbatov is the United player at the moment. And he's the one I support.
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That sentence seems to be self-contradictory for you compare first their stats before concluding that stats comparisions are meaningless.

I'm not sure you got the stats right though.

Since his departure from United, Tevez has started 58 league games and has scored 41 goals (9 pens), i.e. 32 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, Berbatov has started 46 league games for us and has scored 32 goals, all from open play.

Tevez - 32 goals from open play in 58 league starts

Berbatov - 32 goals from open play in 46 league starts.

So much for Tevez being (much) more productive at City than Berbatov at United.

BTW, since the start of 06/07 season, when Berbatov and Tevez moved to the EPL, no player has scored more goals from open play in the league than Berbatov.

It's true that Tevez has scored a bigger percentage of City's goals in the league than Berbatov of United's goals but that's normal for good players at smaller clubs. Last season, Bent scored 50% of Sunderland's goals whereas Rooney scored "only" about 30% of our league goals. Is there a fan who believes that Bent was better than Rooney? We couldn't afford to rely too much on one striker.
 
adexkola said:
I mentioned at the time. At the time, there was absolutely no justification IMO. Tevez is the attack of the city team, he creates and scores, in a way Berba has not done, so stats comparisons are meaningless. City are impotent upfront without him, can the same be said about Berbatov?

I didn't mean to make this a Tevez Berba debate again though. Berbatov is the United player at the moment. And he's the one I support.
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So you don't think that City's lack of quality players up front has anything to do with it then?

Or that City's style of play restricts others from being effective, or that their tactics differ from ours, or that their players haven't the degree of motivation that Tevez has, or that United players have.

Why is that?
 
Treble said:
That sentence seems to be self-contradictory for you compare first their stats before concluding that stats comparisions are meaningless.

I'm not sure you got the stats right though.

Since his departure from United, Tevez has started 58 league games and has scored 41 goals (9 pens), i.e. 32 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, Berbatov has started 44 league games for us and has scored 32 goals, all from open play.

Tevez - 32 goals from open play in 58 league starts

Berbatov - 32 goals from open play in 44 league starts.

So much for Tevez being (much) more productive at City than Berbatov at United.

BTW, since the start of 06/07 season, when Berbatov and Tevez moved to the EPL, no player has scored more goals from open play in the league than Berbatov.

It's true that Tevez has scored a bigger percentage of City's goals in the league than Berbatov of United's goals but that's normal for players at smaller clubs. Last season, Bent scored 50% of Sunderland's goals whereas Rooney scored "only" about 30% of our league goals. Is there a fan who believes that Bent was better than Rooney? We couldn't afford to rely too much on one striker.
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Interesting but who has scored more winners / equalisers / first goals?
 
Commadus said:
Interesting but who has scored more winners / equalisers / first goals?
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I guess that Bent has scored more winners / first goals for Sunderland than Rooney for us. Wouldn't draw significant conclusions from it though.
 
Treble said:
That sentence seems to be self-contradictory for you compare first their stats before concluding that stats comparisions are meaningless.

I'm not sure you got the stats right though.

Since his departure from United, Tevez has started 58 league games and has scored 41 goals (9 pens), i.e. 32 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, Berbatov has started 44 league games for us and has scored 32 goals, all from open play.

Tevez - 32 goals from open play in 58 league starts

Berbatov - 32 goals from open play in 44 league starts.

So much for Tevez being (much) more productive at City than Berbatov at United.

BTW, since the start of 06/07 season, when Berbatov and Tevez moved to the EPL, no player has scored more goals from open play in the league than Berbatov.

It's true that Tevez has scored a bigger percentage of City's goals in the league than Berbatov of United's goals but that's normal for players at smaller clubs. Last season, Bent scored 50% of Sunderland's goals whereas Rooney scored "only" about 30% of our league goals. Is there a fan who believes that Bent was better than Rooney? We couldn't afford to rely too much on one striker.
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That's interesting, didn't know that.
 
Saliph said:
That's interesting, didn't know that.
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I was surprised when I noticed it. Here are the full stats:

League goals 06/07-10/11:

Rooney 71
Drogba 71
Berbatov 68
Tevez 67
Bent 66
Torres 65
Lampard 61


Goals from open play:

Berbatov 66
Rooney 65
Drogba 65 (or thereabouts, not sure how many goals he scored from free kicks, I suppose at least 3)
Torres 64-65
...
Tevez - 53-54

Goals + assists in the premiership (06/07-10/11):

1. Rooney 118 (71 goals + 47 assists)
2. Berbatov 110 (68 + 42)
3. Lampard 109 (61 + 48)
4. Drogba 108 (71 + 37)
5. Fabregas 97 (30 + 67)
6. Tevez 95 (67 + 28)
7. Gerrard 87 (47 + 40)
8. v. Persie 81 ( 49 + 32)
9. Torres 81 (65 + 16, 07/08-10/11))

If you take into account only the goals and assists in the league from open play, Rooney and Berbatov will be well ahead of all other players in the league.
 
adexkola said:
Meh.

I think Berbatov has done well this season, it may be the title is determined on goal difference, and haven't we been crying out for games where we just rape (hehe) the opposition and stick 5 past the keeper? He looks more eager, more focused, more industrious, while retaining his silks, and anyone who questions his place in the squad right now has an agenda.

But when he got here, he was being compared to Cantona. He was hailed as the final jigsaw. He was deemed so important that instead of bedding him in gradually, like we did with hernandez, he knocked out Tevez, who at the time was in such good form that posters (Pogue in particular) made a thread saying Tevez should be starting over Rooney, who couldn't trap a bag of cement at the time. It's why I can never bring myself to hate Tevez, because IMO he was unfairly benched.

And Berbatov takes 2 seasons to settle! We'd get the occasional brilliant flick or stroke of genius from him, but mostly garbage, IMO. I didn't want him to come, and he just was not justifying his price tag, and starting over a better striker. The FA cup game against Everton was the final straw for me, the way he just took the penalty, making the effort of the likes of Welbeck, Evans and Macheda naught in one lackadaisal second.

The worse part is he is almost never selected for the big games. What other elite team in world football drops one of their best performers for every single big game? He was supposed to help in Europe, as the one who unlocks those tight defenses. How can he do that from the bench?

I'm glad he's made me eat most of my words this season. It does get a bit grating when the likes of Feed Me taunt those who questioned him all along, as if their doubts were not valid. He's a Manchester United player, period. Is he a special player? He isn't, and given what it took to get him, that's a minor disappointment. I want to see how he will perform in this crucial stretch of the season, and I'm hoping he will prove himself even further.
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I've barely been involved in the Berbatov debate this season, so feck knows where you got that from.

And for the record, I agree with the sentiments of your post. I've always been balanced on Berbatov. Constructive criticism when he deserved it and then lauding him when he deserved that.

I suppose I stand out in this debate because I don't occupy either extreme view of Berbatov.
 
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