Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances

[wr8_utd]

Tbh I'd play Rooney Hernandez vs Liverpool as well. They cause Chelsea problems and after Berba came on the problems disappeared for Chelsea. Not blaming him or something but maybe Rooney Hernandez is a better pairing away from home?

 

[Treble]

We've lost only two league games thus far, against Wolves and Chelsea - games in which Berbatov was substituted/benched in favour of Rooney and Hernandez. And we were drawing against City before he substituted Anderson. Is this what is supposed to make him third choice?

Besides, people never learn. Just read the posts the week before he scored 5 vs Blackburn. One poster even suggested that Spurs wouldn't be interested to get Berbatov back because Crouch and Defoe were a great partnership...

 

[Randall Flagg]

We've lost only two league games thus far, against Wolves and Chelsea - games in which Berbatov was substituted/benched in favour of Rooney and Hernandez. And we were drawing against City before he substituted Anderson. Is this what is supposed to make him third choice?

Besides, people never learn. Just read the posts the week before he scored 5 vs Blackburn. One poster even suggested that Spurs wouldn't be interested to get Berbatov back because Crouch and Defoe were a great partnership...

I wasnt saying he should or shouldnt play. I am asking what is squad status is in the eyes of Fergie.

He cannot be deemed crucial if he gets left out away to Chelsea. And I am asking what that means?

By the way I think that may have been me who suggested Spurs would not take him back. Nothing to do with the Defoe – Crouch partnership more to do with the fact he wouldn’t fit into their style of play of diagonal balls etc…

 

[Deleted 20801]

Berbatov really didn't change how Chelsea performed. Even though Hernandez would have perhaps kept their back line a bit more cautious, the game wouldn't have suddenly been in our favor. Our midfield was overrun.

Had Berbatov been on from the start, his performance obviously would have been different. We were attacking them for fun in the first 45 minutes, in the second half it clearly wasn't the same.

 

[Name Changed]

Berbatov really didn't change how Chelsea performed. Even though Hernandez would have perhaps kept their back line a bit more cautious, the game wouldn't have suddenly been in our favor. Our midfield was overrun.

Had Berbatov been on from the start, his performance obviously would have been different. We were attacking them for fun in the first 45 minutes, in the second half it clearly wasn't the same.

Hernandez was able to keep their whole back 4 busy. His pace and willingness to run had the likes of John Terry all over the place. It gave the likes of Rooney, Nani and Fletcher the space to get forward and find the space needed.

Berbatov has not got the speed and mobility that Hernandez had. I doubt we would have been so good in the first half with Berbatov there. His strengths are completely opposite to Hernandez's, and it was Hernandez's strengths that were more beneficial to us last night.

As soon as he came off, there was a massive deterioration in our attack play, regardless of whether or not our midfield was getting overrun.

We were not as good when we had the ball. Terry and Luiz/Boswinga had a much easier time with Berbatov as they did with Hernandez.

I'm not having a go at Berbatov in any way. This kind of game suits Hernandez's strengths, and I'd play him every single time in that kind of match.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Berbatov really didn't change how Chelsea performed. Even though Hernandez would have perhaps kept their back line a bit more cautious, the game wouldn't have suddenly been in our favor. Our midfield was overrun.

Had Berbatov been on from the start, his performance obviously would have been different. We were attacking them for fun in the first 45 minutes, in the second half it clearly wasn't the same.

Agree. It didn't really matter that much who was upfront at the time. Our midfield was getting murdered.

 

[Bilbo]

Hernandez deserved the start. When he comes on as a sub he makes a difference. When he starts he scores match-changing goals more often than not.

I'm really trying to warm to Berbatov, but I just don't feel that he fits in with this team. It sounds stupid because he's the league top scorer, and I probably have an agenda against him even though I try not to.

It speaks volumes though that he isn't playing the crunch games. Third season in a row that he is being fazed out of the team as the season reaches its peak. He can't be happy about that, and it can't help his confidence.

 

[Deleted 20801]

I agree with what Hendandez was doing, but by the time he came off he was both tired, and marked out. They had the better of him in the second half, he was also losing possession more so in the second half.

It's all hypothetical but I think we would have excelled with Berbatov on in the first half. Hernandez was able to make runs through, and perhaps the better partnership for this match would have been Berbatov-Herndandez. Berbatov is our best forward in terms of keeping possession and the ball, and opening up space for others, he can hold onto the ball, pretty much anywhere. For me, that ability would have been better suited with Hernandez who might have had more to work off.

There was a deterioration in our play before he came off, and overall it had nothing to do with Berbatov. Yes, they marked him out easier then they did Hernandez, but how often did we even have the ball up there at that point? They had an easier time with Berbatov because our entire team performance had dipped, and there was far less service to him then before. I don't think it's fair to attribute either the lack of attack or Chelsea's progress down to the Berbatov substitution, at that point it was the team as a whole was playing differently, and tiring rapidly.

I know what you're saying, and I can see why we started him as well, without a few bad decisions we might not even be looking back on it and question it, but I feel the way we played that first half, and how Chelsea crumbled at times, Berbatov could have exploited that lax defence far more then either Rooney or Hernandez did.

 

[Name Changed]

I don't agree with you to be honest. Each to their own.

I think that Hernandez would have been far more effective than Berbatov. Had Hernandez not have been on the pitch in the first half, we would not have been so good in attack that we would have had that much space. A stationary Berbatov (in comparison to Hernandez) would not have given us the space that we had.

Hernandez's off the ball work is what gives other players so many options and so much space. Berbatov can't do that. Berbatov is more suited to other types of games.

There is more of an argument for playing Berbatov over Rooney than Berbatov over Hernandez in my honest opinion. Hernandez makes a massive difference to us in these types of games.

Without a shadow of a doubt the right decision to play him in my opinion.

I understand what you are saying and can see the merits in it, I just don't agree!

 

[Ekeke]

I thought Hernandez did as good a job as we could have asked and when Berbatov came on, it was the right time to try and change things. It could possibily have been for Rooney as Hernandez and Berbatov are our main scorers this season and we needed a goal, but Rooney was one of our more active players so I can see why he stayed on. All in all, probably both correct choices but unfortunately Hernandez was unable to get on the scoresheet and Berbatov (and Giggs) werent able to change the game when they came on. Another day they would have, yesterday they didnt.

 

[Deleted 20801]

Agreed, I think there is more of an argument for Berbatov over Rooney then Hernandez, purely because Hernandez is the only one making those runs and stretching defences. I think he could have been more effective for Hernandez to play off.

Fair enough NC, it's pointless anyway as we will never know, and at the end of the day our first half was still probably our best away performance.

 

[Red Defence]

The pace we played in the 1st half really would not have suited him. Fergie went for it and played Rooney and Hernandez. I dont know exactly what that says about Berbs and his current status in the squad. Its not a good thing for him that is for sure.
He most likely will play on Sunday but to say he was rested tonight is a cop out for him. After 3 years he is still not 1st or 2nd choice for the big games.

I cant decide if I agree with that or not considering the season he has had. But if I was him I would not be very happy

It says nothing really.

For some reason Fergie chose to start with exactly the same team and exactly the same subs as he did for the Wigan game....apart for Giggs in place of an untested resreve player on the bench, which made sense really. Shouldn't imagine that was anything to do with who is the best striker out of the three, probably more to do with trying to achieve some sort of consistency in our games.

Maybe he also thought that by using exactly the same players at home and away he and his staff could make some inroads into why we have such differing performances between away games and home games.

Could be wrong of course but I have never seen him use exactly the same team and bench in two consecutive matches before. Imo that was a very calculated decision for some reason.

 

[Brophs]

Last night was more a case of horses for courses, I felt. Perhaps Fergie's trying to give him a bit of rest for the run in since he'd played so much up until now, or perhaps he just hasn't been that impressed with him of late, but Hernandez suited the way we played in the first half. Rooney was finding good space dropping off and had he played Berbatov Rooney would have had to play the Hernandez role, so to speak, which he hasn't been doing as much of late.

 

[Ekeke]

Sir Alex talked about wanting more from Berbatov and Rooney away from home weeks ago, and they havent responded (as a pair). Hernandez came in and scored goals. He's our top goalscorer away from home. So Sir Alex is giving him a chance to perform to the levels he was hoping Berbatov and Rooney would away from home.

I'm pretty sure in our home matches he'll go back to Berbatov and Rooney.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Hernandez deserved the start. When he comes on as a sub he makes a difference. When he starts he scores match-changing goals more often than not.

I'm really trying to warm to Berbatov, but I just don't feel that he fits in with this team. It sounds stupid because he's the league top scorer, and I probably have an agenda against him even though I try not to.

It speaks volumes though that he isn't playing the crunch games. Third season in a row that he is being fazed out of the team as the season reaches its peak. He can't be happy about that, and it can't help his confidence.

He isn't being 'phased out''. It's horses for courses. I won't be surprised if he starts against Liverpool, a team he always performs against.

 

[Bilbo]

He isn't being 'phased out''. It's horses for courses. I won't be surprised if he starts against Liverpool, a team he always performs against.

How many of our players are judged in such a selective light? I can only think of Rafael ( & maybe Park) that currently might be replaced or selected due to the nature of the opposition. Fact is, everybody else who is judged a key player for this team plays the big games come what may.

IMO its a clear sign that Ferguson doesn't think that he can handle these occasions.

 

[Ekeke]

He'll be picked for those occasions at home. He's scored goals in big matches this season, no reason to think he cant.

 

[Bilbo]

He'll be picked for those occasions at home. He's scored goals in big matches this season, no reason to think he cant.

Different scenario though. Familiar turf, our own fans behind him. Completely different.

Last night was telling in that we usually play Rooney up top alone, so there are tactical justifications for leaving him out. Playing the system we did last night and still leaving him out has to be a blow for a player of his mindset.

 

[Devil may care]

I don't agree with you to be honest. Each to their own.

I think that Hernandez would have been far more effective than Berbatov. Had Hernandez not have been on the pitch in the first half, we would not have been so good in attack that we would have had that much space. A stationary Berbatov (in comparison to Hernandez) would not have given us the space that we had.

Hernandez's off the ball work is what gives other players so many options and so much space. Berbatov can't do that. Berbatov is more suited to other types of games.

There is more of an argument for playing Berbatov over Rooney than Berbatov over Hernandez in my honest opinion. Hernandez makes a massive difference to us in these types of games.

Without a shadow of a doubt the right decision to play him in my opinion.

I understand what you are saying and can see the merits in it, I just don't agree!

I thought Hernandez did as good a job as we could have asked and when Berbatov came on, it was the right time to try and change things. It could possibily have been for Rooney as Hernandez and Berbatov are our main scorers this season and we needed a goal, but Rooney was one of our more active players so I can see why he stayed on. All in all, probably both correct choices but unfortunately Hernandez was unable to get on the scoresheet and Berbatov (and Giggs) werent able to change the game when they came on. Another day they would have, yesterday they didnt.

I agree with both of these posts, in the end Fergie had no choice but to sub Hernandez as he looked spent, but in fairness to Berbatov you are rarely going to get the best from him coming off the bench, especially into a game played at that pace.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

How many of our players are judged in such a selective light?

There is nothing selective about it. Trying to claim there is a some bigger reason Berbatov hasn't played vs Chelsea is the equivalent of saying Rafael is not out first choice right back ahead of John O'shea. It's very silly. Away games are different from home games. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some of your best players to excel in an away fixture.

I can only think of Rafael ( & maybe Park) that currently might be replaced or selected due to the nature of the opposition. Fact is, everybody else who is judged a key player for this team plays the big games come what may.

I don't agree at all. Right now our team is very a much horses for courses one. Apart from the central defenders and VDS. When all our squad is fit, our best 11 for big games definitely varies.

IMO its a clear sign that Ferguson doesn't think that he can handle these occasions.

That is because you still have very little faith in him. Not because SAF really thinks that.

 

[Ekeke]

Different scenario though. Familiar turf, our own fans behind him. Completely different.

Last night was telling in that we usually play Rooney up top alone, so there are tactical justifications for leaving him out. Playing the system we did last night and still leaving him out has to be a blow for a player of his mindset.

Which is the whole point.

He's our top scorer with 19 league goals, 15 of those at home. We know he does the business there so why would his role be in question for those matches?

Both Rooney and Berbatov (well, as a partnership in fact) has been questioned by our own manager away from home. And now he's picked Hernandez instead of Berbatov. For these matches perhaps the first choice is now Hernandez and one other - Rooney last night.

But at home there is absolutely no reason to think he wont be either first choice or 2nd choice and therefore play when we have 2 up front.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Which is the whole point.

He's our top scorer with 19 league goals, 15 of those at home. We know he does the business there so why would his role be in question for those matches?

Both Rooney and Berbatov (well, as a partnership in fact) has been questioned by our own manager away from home. And now he's picked Hernandez instead of Berbatov. For these matches perhaps the first choice is now Hernandez and one other - Rooney last night.

But at home there is absolutely no reason to think he wont be either first choice or 2nd choice and therefore play when we have 2 up front.

Spot on.

 

[Bilbo]

Which is the whole point.

He's our top scorer with 19 league goals, 15 of those at home. We know he does the business there so why would his role be in question for those matches?

Both Rooney and Berbatov (well, as a partnership in fact) has been questioned by our own manager away from home. And now he's picked Hernandez instead of Berbatov. For these matches perhaps the first choice is now Hernandez and one other - Rooney last night.

But at home there is absolutely no reason to think he wont be either first choice or 2nd choice and therefore play when we have 2 up front.

I don't disagree with any of that, but it kind of brings me onto the real point of the issue. If we have a player that we don't fancy for the majority of our toughest away matches (games that generally decide competitions), we have reduced options in a key area of the pitch for key games.

Its a problem for us. There's a good chance that Berbatov won't start at the Emirates, or at Anfield, or even for Chelsea at home. Not to mention later rounds of the Champions League, if we get there.

Its not dissimilar to a scenario where we didn't fancy playing Vidic or Ferdinand, or Carrick or Nani in certain games. If we had a player in another area that wasn't deemed suitable for big occasions, we'd be questioning why we didn't replace that player with someone else who was.

Full credit to Berbatov for never publicly complaining about missing the games all players should want to play in, but I can't believe it doesn't play on the minds of both him and Ferguson to some degree.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I don't disagree with any of that, but it kind of brings me onto the real point of the issue. If we have a player that we don't fancy for the majority of our toughest away matches (games that generally decide competitions), we have reduced options in a key area of the pitch for key games.

Its a problem for us.

It really isn't. It's like how in some big games when all our wingers have been fit in the least season till now, we've started Valencia and Park. Then Nani and Park. Then Valencia and Nani. Nani and Gig. Then Valencia and Giggs. That's what having a quality squad with quality options gives you. Tactical flexibility.

So that when you in a situation like we have been this season. In which Rooney and Berbatov have by and large not done the business away from home. You can start a Hernandez without losing your quality

There's a good chance that Berbatov won't start at the Emirates, or at Anfield, or even for Chelsea at home. Not to mention later rounds of the Champions League, if we get there.

There is also a good chance he will start all those games. I honestly don't see the point of looking at it negatively.

Its not dissimilar to a scenario where we didn't fancy playing Vidic or Ferdinand, or Carrick or Nani in certain games. If we had a player in another area that wasn't deemed suitable for big occasions, we'd be questioning why we didn't replace that player with someone else who was..

Because football doesn't work that way any more. There is a reason why people have a first team squad with options. To have the option of ''horses for courses''. To have tactical flexibility. Gone are the days when the same first 11 showed up week in week out of r a top side in England.

For example our preferred formation is 4-4-2. But on certain grounds we can't play that. Would you prefer us to start Berbatov and a Rooney in a wrong role just because they are our best forwards, than start a side that suits the formation and opponent best?

Full credit to Berbatov for never publicly complaining about missing the games all players should want to play in, but I can't believe it doesn't play on the minds of both him and Ferguson to some degree.

Naturally it must. However, SAF has shown all his players their importance and the importance of his ''horses for courses'' strategy. That is why by and large they all take it so well.

 

[Red Defence]

Why is there all this stuff about Berbatov not playing in away games?

Up until now the only away game he didn't play in was away to Sunderland in October, where Fergie played Owen and Macheda probably to give Berb a break.....he had played every PL match up until then.

It's just these last two matches where Fergie has used Rooney and Hernandez.......same strikers, exactly same team. Nothing excitable enough to cause all this surely.

In total he's played 22 of our 27 PL games. He needs a bit of a rest now so he's fit and raring to go ready for the run-in.

 

[Bilbo]

Why is there all this stuff about Berbatov not playing in away games?

Up until now the only away game he didn't play in was away to Sunderland in October, where Fergie played Owen and Macheda probably to give Berb a break.....he had played every PL match up until then.

It's just these last two matches where Fergie has used Rooney and Hernandez.......same strikers, exactly same team. Nothing excitable enough to cause all this surely.

In total he's played 22 of our 27 PL games. He needs a bit of a rest now so he's fit and raring to go ready for the run-in.

Its because its starting to follow the same pattern as the two previous seasons. Come the business end, Berbatov becomes a fringe player for us.

For all of the Chiefs talk about it being a squad game, and patronising me with 'the game has moved on' type comments, this isn't a regular squad-use situation.

 

[Brwned]

Its because its starting to follow the same pattern as the two previous seasons. Come the business end, Berbatov becomes a fringe player for us.

For all of the Chiefs talk about it being a squad game, and patronising me with 'the game has moved on' type comments, this isn't a regular squad-use situation.

He started 2/3 of the games from March onwards last season? I'm not sure missing out a select few big games equates to him becoming a fringe player.

 

[Ekeke]

Its because its starting to follow the same pattern as the two previous seasons. Come the business end, Berbatov becomes a fringe player for us.

For all of the Chiefs talk about it being a squad game, and patronising me with 'the game has moved on' type comments, this isn't a regular squad-use situation.

No its not and its dissappointing given how much we paid and all that stuff we've all talked about before. But its the situation we have that :

1) Berbatov has finally come good this season, being our top scorer and one of our better players

2) Sir Alex is clearly frustrated with the Berbatov and Rooney combination away from home. He doesnt usually speak out about something like wanting more from that partnership, and it didnt spark a reaction either. So now we're in this situation with something different being employed

What do you want to happen? Play the Berbatov and Rooney partnership away from home and drop more points because of it? Perhaps not win the league because we persist with something other than our best strikeforce away from home?

Drop him for home matches as well?

Sell him for the small amount we'd get for him at this point in his career and replace him with a player who will play well next to Rooney home and away?

I dont really see what you want.

 

[Red Defence]

Its because its starting to follow the same pattern as the two previous seasons. Come the business end, Berbatov becomes a fringe player for us.

For all of the Chiefs talk about it being a squad game, and patronising me with 'the game has moved on' type comments, this isn't a regular squad-use situation.

What do you mean it isn't a regular squad-use situation? Looks very much like a regular squad-use situation to me.

I can also see another regular pattern here again too and that's the usual one regarding Berba that crops up from some at any given opportunity.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Its because its starting to follow the same pattern as the two previous seasons. Come the business end, Berbatov becomes a fringe player for us.

Well Berbatov hadn't played as much as he has this season in the two previous seasons, been in as good form for us or scored as many goals either. You are clutching at straws to make a minor issue look like a concern.

For all of the Chiefs talk about it being a squad game, and patronising me with 'the game has moved on' type comments, this isn't a regular squad-use situation.

I wasn't patronising you at all. Rather I was pointing out the obvious. Your admitted Berbatov biases are simply clouding your judgement.

SAF for the first time in over 120 games didn't change his starting 11. That should tell you how normal it is for him to switch things round. Hernandez starting ahead or Berbatov shouldn't be seen as something overly special nor overly significant.

 

[Bilbo]

In response to all above (apologies - all valid responses but I'm due in a meeting).

My only issue here is that we have a key player that is mostly uninvolved for big games. He is the only key player that is in this position. All of our other big players play when available and fit (even unfit on occasions) regardless of the occasion and opposition.

I'm not suggesting we sell Berbatov. I'm simply stating that this is a squad problem that I think needs looking at more closely, as it costs us something overall. To me its not even that controversial a viewpoint. Many of my United following friends feel exactly the same way.

 

[Ekeke]

Well yes, its not ideal but there's no ideal solution either. Other than Berbatov and Rooney as a partnership responding to Sir Alex's comments, which they didnt. They may still when they get a chance in an away match in the future.

 

[Red Defence]

In response to all above (apologies - all valid responses but I'm due in a meeting).

My only issue here is that we have a key player that is mostly uninvolved for big games. He is the only key player that is in this position. All of our other big players play when available and fit (even unfit on occasions) regardless of the occasion and opposition.

I'm not suggesting we sell Berbatov. I'm simply stating that this is a squad problem that I think needs looking at more closely, as it costs us something overall. To me its not even that controversial a viewpoint. Many of my United following friends feel exactly the same way.

Yes, you're right, maybe we should play Berba in the big games a bit more. Might have more success in them then.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

In response to all above (apologies - all valid responses but I'm due in a meeting).

My only issue here is that we have a key player that is mostly uninvolved for big games. He is the only key player that is in this position. All of our other big players play when available and fit (even unfit on occasions) regardless of the occasion and opposition.

I'm not suggesting we sell Berbatov. I'm simply stating that this is a squad problem that I think needs looking at more closely, as it costs us something overall. To me its not even that controversial a viewpoint. Many of my United following friends feel exactly the same way.

It has always been a midfield issue though. The day our midfield returns to being strong enough to support 2 strikers even in big games. Then players like Berbatov will get more big game time.

Apart from that, we wont drop one of our wingers to accomdate a striker, for that hurt us most, and none of our other strikers can realistically be expected to get picked ahead of Rooney for a lone forward role.

 

[Ekeke]

Our midfield is weak, last night was just another example of that in the 2nd half, but we played 2 strikers and neither were Berbatov. So its not just the midfield is it. Its also what Sir Alex has said about Rooney and Berbatov not doing enough away from home as a partnership. Had Rooney and Berbatov responded to those comments right after, they'd have continued as the prefered 2 in an away match no question. As its always been clear that they are Sir Alex's favoured pairing.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Our midfield is weak, last night was just another example of that in the 2nd half, but we played 2 strikers and neither were Berbatov. So its not just the midfield is it..

For the last 2 seasons it most definitely has been the midfield that has forced us to not play 2forwards in most big matches, is what I'm hinting at.

Yesterday we tried to go for the jugular. However it back fired on us because we never killed them off when we had a the chance to, and then our midfield showed its weaknesses.

Its also what Sir Alex has said about Rooney and Berbatov not doing enough away from home as a partnership. Had Rooney and Berbatov responded to those comments right after, they'd have continued as the prefered 2 in an away match no question. As its always been clear that they are Sir Alex's favoured pairing.

Indeed.

 

[kouroux]

If he wanted to leave at the end of the season I would perfectly understand it.It's a unique situation where the top scorer in the league can't start in big matches.I don't think it happens in any other country

 

[Ekeke]

He would have himself (and Rooney) to blame. Sir Alex made it clear they werent doing enough together and we didnt get any more out of them.

 

[Name Changed]

I agree with both of these posts, in the end Fergie had no choice but to sub Hernandez as he looked spent, but in fairness to Berbatov you are rarely going to get the best from him coming off the bench, especially into a game played at that pace.

Correct. You will rarely get the best out of Berbatov when bringing him on as a sub. Also, he will never show his best in a game with such pace and intensity. It's just not his strength.

That's not slagging him off in any way.

It'd be different if we were dropping a fit Berbatov for say, Michael Owen, or for a midfielder. But the player who has played instead of him over the last couple of games has been Javier Hernandez, who is one of the fastest and one of the best finishers in the league. He is a super little player and when playing against a slow old fecker like John Terry, it is quite a reasonable option for him to start.

It does not mean Berbatov is being phased out.

 

[Name Changed]

Our midfield is weak, last night was just another example of that in the 2nd half, but we played 2 strikers and neither were Berbatov. So its not just the midfield is it. Its also what Sir Alex has said about Rooney and Berbatov not doing enough away from home as a partnership. Had Rooney and Berbatov responded to those comments right after, they'd have continued as the prefered 2 in an away match no question. As its always been clear that they are Sir Alex's favoured pairing.

Rooney and Berbatov are not half as effective away from home as they are at home. One could argue that Rooney be the player who suffers but that's another thing.