CichWho?
Diouf will never make it.
Macheda need some regular first team football, send him on loan.
Give Welbeck more games instead of Owen.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
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CichWho?
Diouf will never make it.
Macheda need some regular first team football, send him on loan.
Give Welbeck more games instead of Owen.
I think if we sell Berbatov it wouldnt be to "keep fans happy". Nor because he didnt score enough league goals this season.
I think it will be because it doesnt make sense to be paying his wages to sit him on the bench in all the big matches and not be very involved in taking us far in the champions league.
Especially at a time when we dont have lots of cash to throw away and at a time when we might need to make some adjustments to the team in the summer and need to offer good players competative wages to make them come here.
We simply cannot afford that luxury financially and even a club with lots of money would try and change the situation.
And also because the tactics of last season didnt work out how Fergie thought they would, with Berbatov playing in the hole behind Rooney. He went off that idea, the idea that saw him opt for Berbatov over other strikers in the first place.
And while we've made the most of that situation this season by playing him as a normal striker and having him play against weak sides, that clearly wasnt the intention when we tried to buy him and signed him on a deal.
So even though its quite debatable that Berbatov has contributed decently with his goals this season (as the number is fine, its the fact none of them came off the bench, in the champions league or in a big match) the situation calls for the player to be doing more than decently if all he's going to be is an extremely well paid player for the small occasion and not particularly good backup for Rooney.
To earn his wage in that situation, he'd have to be buttfecking small teams every week and be an amazing stand in for Rooney. And thats why you dont spend huge amounts on a player for that job or agree to pay him big wages.
If Berbatov is sold, without us replacing him, our squad is weaker.
Jesus, you're like a broken fecking record.
He's started one Champion's League game this season and do we really need to re-visit the "Rooney getting picked ahead of Berbatov in big games" discussion?
As for not scoring off the bench, that's a weird criteria on which to judge a striker; not least because it's barely 48 hours since we saw that it's quite possible for him to have an important influence off the bench without needing to score.
Berbatov showed us this weekend how he is best used - coming off the bench with 20 to go. Not what you want as a return on your investment really. He should be challenging for a spot up front next to Rooney, dropping deeper to collect perhaps, but given his lack of energy over the course of 90 minutes, it's obvious this is not going to happen, ever. My gripe isn't with Berbatov as a talent, rather as a player who fits the United mould, who can be relied upon to give his all for 90 minutes when we need him to step up. He hasn't done that this year, by a long shot, and should be on his way this summer. If not, I will live in hope that he proves me wrong, of course, but I won't hold my breath.
Only starting 1 match just furthers that point that he offers us nothing to our champions league exploits. Doesnt matter if he had to come off the bench to get a goal in the competition... In fact that does matter, because had he come off the bench and got a goal in the champions league he'd have proven more useful. But never having scored off the bench for us, not adding a single goal to those we scored in the champions league, it just shows how much we've really needed him. The 12 goals in the league is the other side of the coin. All of it needs to be taken into account, not just 1 side that makes him sound good or bad. Fact is he could have been better in the restricted role he has ended up playing this season, even if you feel he has done pretty good. And that doesnt bode well for one of our highest earners.
You bring strikers off the bench when you need goals. He doesnt provide that. Yes he can give something to the general play off the bench, but so could midfielders. And we could have a new midfielder who specialises in that general play, who's contract will reflect their actual status at the club come in to replace him. That simply makes more sense.
If somehow we could rip up his contract this summer and give him a new one to reflect his actual status in the squad, then I'd be more inclined to believe that he would be staying. However due to the clubs circumstances and Berbatov's circumstances, I'd be absolutely shocked if he stayed. It doesnt mean it wont happen though, I dont always agree with everything the manager decides. I just cant see this one, myself.
Jaysus Ekeke, you'd swear you were paying his wages out of your own pocket you keep going on about it so much! I suspect its just because its tough to argue against, so allows you to rationalise your desires to get rid. If he's on 100k per week, even if his wages were cut you could only expect them to be cut by maybe 30k, which would save us a grand total of £1.5m over the course of a year. While its a lot of money, its really just a tiny drop in the ocean in comparison to our debt, it would make feck all appreciable difference to us, we're still willing to spunk twice that amount on players who may never even make the bench consistently for us.
Bingo.
Is he that well paid though? I know nothing about that sort of thing so enlighten me.
I would imagine his wage reflects his status as the second best striker in our squad.
Of course, this is neither here nor there, seeing as Ekeke's decided it's the one remaining stick to beat him with.
And I seem to remember some quotes where he said that if it was money he was after he'd have gone to Chelski or City.
Apparently 90-100k per week?
I think that United should find a quality cover for Rooney. Someone who can score the goals upfront. Owen is injury prone (lets face it, the only time we forced him a bit he got knackered for the rest of the season), Berba is not suited to lead the line and the rest are either too young or too shite to lead the line. Rooney is currently OUR FORWARD LINE.
It would make a fair bit of difference to the wage structure. And of course its not my money, but anyone with a shred of sense would know to look at the situation from the perspective of those who will have influence on the actual decision. The people inside the club. The money men. The manager. Its not about what I want, but what I believe they are likely to do in the circumstances. So you'd have to be daft not to consider it.
As for cutting 30k... Its not something I think has a realistic chance of actually happening. It just doesnt really happen so I wouldnt expect it to. Hence that 30k figure you came up with doesnt mean anything to me.
It was just an explaination of why I think his circumstances will lead to his exit. Because there was a bar there at one point, and it was quite high just based on the money he cost and his wages. It might have slipped really low for some people, dissappeared completely for others, but that doesnt really happen in-house.
It one just one of those Ifs. If we could somehow just destroy the contract and start again, with discussions based on the fact he's Rooney's backup and a first team player against the non-top 6 teams and he was happy with that, the future for Berbatov would look good. But thats not going to happen is it. We missed the boat with giving him that kind of deal because never in a million years did we think he'd contribute so little.
As you say, its tough to argue against. Thats the important part. If it was easy to argue against he'd probably be here next season. He might still be, I'd just be susprised given our situation and his.
Ekeke has a point. Is it worth to spend 100k a week for a striker whom we can't rely on? Someone whom SAF would rather rely on an injured Rooney then him? Mind you I am not saying that Berba is shite. He can give some nice flicks and passes and he is not as lazy as one may think. Stating that a 100k a week player should fit in our system. Berba does not.
There's only one thing wrong with him now and thats his wages?
Christ. If you love him so much why dont you marry him. Better yet, since you've decided thats a stick to beat him with then why not show some compassion? Do something to stop him getting 'beat'. Start a paypal account for donations towards Berbatov's wages. Sorted, no more sticks.
The only way it would make sense to continue in that relationship is if we barely missed Rooney when Berbatov replaced him. And if he really did steal the show each time he played against the easier teams. Then perhaps you could justify that kind of money being paid each week to a player who ultimately wont play in the big matches where you need to be at your best or you dont get a good result. Maybe if we were so good that we were getting to champions league finals and deservedly winning league titles, without him being involved in the big matches, maybe then its not much of an issue. Or maybe if we werent in heavy debt and had lots of money available, perhaps its not an issue then. But its definitely an issue when we come up short in the champions league, perhaps dont win the league and we have problems with our finances.
If you're just trying to explain the reasons why you think he should leave, rather than reasons why you want him to leave, then fair enough. I still don't agree, mind you. Whatever you say about the Glazers, there hasn't been any evidence to suggest that they make any calls on whether players are performing to the required level or not. The only reason Berbatov would leave, in my mind, is if that's what either Ferguson or Berbatov himself wanted. I haven't seen much to suggest that's the case.
Perhaps SAF could be told that he needs to cut the wage bill somehow, that's the only way I could see the "money men" having any say. But seeing as we lost two players on 100k+ last summer, and we also have Scholes, Giggs and Neville who I imagine would all be on pretty decent money and are likely to drop off the payroll themselves in the next year or two, I don't think the wage bill is really calling out for major reductions.
I doubt it given he insults me pretty much every day and I rarely bother to say anything back. But just like I could be wrong about Sir Alex's thinking about Berbatov this summer, I could be wrong about the mods. So, noted.
Yep. Odd really.
Hate to point out the bleeding obvious (even though this is the right thread for it) but why would holding a "not uncommon viewpoint" be the reason that a few people are unhappy to see you back?
I don't think I've ever seen someone banned for their opinion about a footballer and I spend a LOT of time on here.
I don't think I've ever seen someone banned for their opinion about a footballer and I spend a LOT of time on here.
Maybe we should look at slashing Rio's wages too. He supposedly has higher wages than Berbatov, has played about half as many league games as him this season, has underperformed in a few of them, and with his recent chronic back troubles there's every reason to believe we may face the same issues with him next season.
It's a bit of a silly argument, isn't it?
It's a bit of a silly argument, isn't it?
To be fair, you did piss off pretty much everyone who tried discussing the matter with you
As much as I don't totally agree with Ekeke, he does argue his point as best he can rather than jumping manically between the different aspects of the discussion ignoring any counter-arguments put forth.
Well, thats almost there I guess.
In the past it might have been what I feel should be done. Now I believe its what will be done. Whether I agree with it or dislike the player or whatever. Its just what I think will happen.
Just like I didnt think we'd let Berbatov go last summer as we arent likely to sign a player and then sell him the season after. I might have felt that it would have been best if he had gone. I mean in hindsight, he's a year older now. Less valuable.
If it was what I wanted, we wouldnt have signed him. I revisited the giant Berbatov merged thread the other day and my very first posts in that thread were about him being a really good player, but one thats not suited to playing with Rooney so I hope we dont sign him. I'd go along with that today as well.
What I've really wanted in the past however many months is for him to be given some chances in big games and score some important goals. Get a goal or two off the bench. Really tick all the boxes.
Because like everyone, I'd like it if we got some value out of the whole thing. Thats what I have wanted. But time is pretty much up. I didnt go mental like some people when he didnt do an amazing job against Chelsea or Blackburn because I didnt think he was that bad. Its just he ran out of time to prove what I felt he needed to prove if he was going to stay under the circumstances. And I dont feel sorry for him because overall in the 2 seasons he's been here, he was given chances and he got what he came he for. Medals and trophies.
When Rio is in the team he performs. Any time he's available he will be a big part of the side in a big match.
If his form dropped so much that he was left out of all the big matches and Aston Villa, maybe it would be comparible.
If we played a lone defender at the back in away games Rio would sit out most of these games in favour of Vidic, on current form.
We'd still be crazy to sell him, just to trim our wage bill, especially if the back problems could be sorted.
We'd still be crazy to sell him, just to trim our wage bill, especially if the back problems could be sorted.
The thing is if Vidic was out Rio would slot right in; the same can't be said about Berbatov to any degree.
The whole analogy is absurd but taking it to it's logical conclusion there's a whole lot of games every season where we would want to play Vidic AND Rio.
I think I got my wording wrong in my last post, but yeah, that's what I meant. Still don't agree with you, I don't think his wages are all that likely to come into the equation, but on both our parts it's just opinion and conjecture.
Don't think I have many if any posts in the Megatov thread, the day of his signing I was actually wandering around Dublin pubs with a Bulgarian who had zero interest in football. Think he was getting pissed off with me constantly looking at the TV in the corner of one bar to get a peek at the ticker on SSN, all he offered on the matter was "it's not BER-ba-tov, it's ber-BA-tov!".
Basically you think he's not the right man for the job, I think he could be a very influential player if we got the rest of the team sorted - he's not a Rooney or Ronaldo who might do it all on his own, but I think he's someone who can make players around him more effective. C'est ca, et c'est la vie!
If we played a lone defender, we wouldnt have signed Vidic.
Or we might have given he didnt cost a great deal. But not playing each week he'd never have become the best defender in the world. So he wouldnt be keeping Rio out.
Yep, just one person's opinion.
The right man for the job? Well the job he has right now isnt the same job we were talking about before he signed.
The job right now is to be the backup for Wayne Rooney and to play against the non-top 6 teams. And if you want to do any more than that you need to be playing shit hot stuff begging the question can you really leave me out?
The job back then was simply to partner Rooney in all types of games, save for one or two which Tevez was left out for in the champions league.
I think the job right now he may just about scrape through to a passable level to be a "right enough man" rather than someone who actually suits the role. And thats mainly down to the 12 goals in the league. I just dont for a second think he plays this role well enough for everyone at the club to feel his wages are acceptable. And thats why I feel his time is up.
The job of back then? He gave it a go last season and the manager lost faith in him. So clearly he wasnt the right man for that job.
Exactly.
I don't care what offer comes in. The important thing would be what Fergie wants to do with the team. If he decided that he wanted to sign someone like Benzema and that there wasn't room for three top strikers in the squad (considering we often only play with one, and that we have a few youngsters needing games), then I'd be happy with selling Berbatov to make room. No matter what the transfer fees on the two deals were (within reason of course).
We would sell him if Fergie wants to for the good of the team. Not a case of 'oh that's a fairly good offer so lets take it and then start looking at who we can replace him with'. Unless of course the offer was in the ridiculous levels such as 35m or so.
In this thread, both Pogue, Rubber, R Nick, Eriku etc etc have pissed me off as much as I am sure Commadus pissed off anyone. Says it all really doesn't it? (for the slow amongst you, that Commadus was banned/ghosted at all was a joke).
Our second best goalie isn't paid so much so that kind of rationale doesn't really work! Looking through this thread though, he has been beaten with many sticks (rightly or wrongly depending on opinion) and I think his wage bill is irrelevant. Every player, if they think they're the best player in the world or even if they think they are the worst player around, is absolutely entitled to try and get as much money for himself if he wants. Whether he is worth it or not is irrelevant, he is entitled to get as much as he can.
well at least we have him back
this
Don't be ridiculous you are comparing one of the most important elements in the team with a 30m rated reserve.
Reserve, is that what you call our second choice striker? I find the whole bringing the wages and shit into the argument a bit ridiculous.
Johnny O'Shea is on 60k or more, now that's a bigger concern if you want to worry about the wages.
Well a second choice striker in a system that relies heavily on a lone striker is a reserve. Anyway Berba is not just a reserve. He is a reserve who doesn't fit in our system. Now if SAF insists on the lone man striker system, do you think that it's worth spending 100K a week on a 30m rated striker who can't cover that particular role?
BTW John O'Shea is nowadays a first team place contender (right rear flank). He also cover multiple roles and SAF wouldn't mind relying on him in tough matches. In fact I am sure that if Gaz was fresh from injury and we where forced to play a crucial game then SAF would prefer to rely on O'Shea then Gaz.
Anyway my point is that you really can't compare Rio with Berba. Its like comparing VDS with Foster, Evra with Fabio or Rooney with Berba.
Our second choice striker a reserve
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