Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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fredthered said:
But if you go back to his days at Spurs, you will find that the same accusations are being laid.

Hes lazy
He doenst put any effort in
He couldnt cut it against top class teams, and looked good only against average opponents
Hes arrogant

Many Spurs fans were actually glad to see the back of him, and suggested he was vastly over rated and United were stupid to pay such a huge amount for what could only be described as a slightly above average striker.

Now many United fans are saying the same things..

Two sets of fans cant be wrong...
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You might add a legion of Bundesliga followers over here who were flabbergasted when they heard how much we'd paid for him.

But carry on defending him chaps..........if you do it long enough, he may put together a decent run and then you can say you told us so. We just won't accept that scoring a couple of hattricks for AFC Bournemouth in 8 years is legitimate validation of your claims.
 
fredthered said:
You are in fact proving my point, completely.

Berbatov simply isnt good enough to warrant a place in a starting 11 when we are up against teams of real quality. Fergie would rather leave it to Rooney, and give him an extra midfielder to counterbalance the obvious leaks that would show if Berbatov were on the pitch.

Against the likes of CHelsea you cannot afford to have a striker walking around aimlessly with his hands tucked up his sleeve, not putting in half the effort the rest of the team is.. Its better to have 5 average midfielders all fighting than two world class strikers, but only one is putting any effort in.

The fact Berbatov doesnt play in the big games just adds to the argument that hes not good enough, he never was, and the £30 million we spent on him has been pretty much wasted...
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I am not proving your point since you are looking at this in a very one-sided way.

1st season with us:

The main man was Ronaldo,on a record goal-scoring streak with Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez having to rotate and adapt to this.

2nd season:

Ronaldo and Tevez gone, formation adjusted, Rooney played in the position that suits him the most and on a goal-scoring streak. Players behind the strikers in and out of form, stability needed in the form of an additional midfielder.

imho, Berbatov is the type of player that needs to have a run of games as a starter to show his best. He is not an impact sub.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The thing is, big four teams concede relatively few goals which means there are all sorts of oddities when it comes to analysing players' goal-scoring by comparing their record against the big four with their record against teams from lower down the league
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:lol: I guess that's the best I'm gunna get out of you on this one then!

Poor Pogue, those figures I've shown you aren't oddities, they're further evidence of a striker who doesn't fit the bill here

And you know it, that's why you're trying to evade them and concentrate on Dans calling you a fanny or whatever he's doing
 
A grade said:
I am not proving your point since you are looking at this in a very one-sided way.

1st season with us:

The main man was Ronaldo,on a record goal-scoring streak with Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez having to rotate and adapt to this.

2nd season:

Ronaldo and Tevez gone, formation adjusted, Rooney played in the position that suits him the most and on a goal-scoring streak. Players behind the strikers in and out of form, stability needed in the form of an additional midfielder.

imho, Berbatov is the type of player that needs to have a run of games as a starter to show his best. He is not an impact sub.
Click to expand...

If he had a run of games, the rest of our squad would be exhausted having to cover for him. Bad idea imho.
 
fredthered said:
But if you go back to his days at Spurs, you will find that the same accusations are being laid.

Hes lazy
He doenst put any effort in
He couldnt cut it against top class teams, and looked good only against average opponents
Hes arrogant

Many Spurs fans were actually glad to see the back of him, and suggested he was vastly over rated and United were stupid to pay such a huge amount for what could only be described as a slightly above average striker.

Now many United fans are saying the same things..

Two sets of fans cant be wrong...
Click to expand...

That's horseshit, to be fair.

His goal-scoring record against top teams was very good at Spurs, as it was at his previous club.

Weird that you could come out with that, being a United fan. Did you not watch him playing well (and scoring) against United?
 
B Cantona said:
:lol: I guess that's the best I'm gunna get out of you on this one then!

Poor Pogue, those figures I've shown you aren't oddities, they're further evidence of a striker who doesn't fit the bill here

And you know it, that's why you're trying to evade them and concentrate on Dans calling you a fanny or whatever he's doing
Click to expand...

I thought I was quite clear in what I was doing?

Pogue will stop at nothing to defend a player whom a majority (imo) of our supporters are no longer happy with and I am attacking him ad infinitum

The bitch comment is fair enough really, but Pogue finds that insufficiently high brow for this thread..........................
 
fredthered said:
And of them goals, how many of them were against top class opposition ?

How many times, against top 10 teams has Berbatov been the man of hte match, the one to turn the game on its head and show the £30 million of class that we paid for him ?

Good players score goals.. Great players score IMPORTANT goals, and Berbatov doesnt do that.

His 12 goals have mainly come against mediocre opposition.. 12 goals against average opponents is NOT what you expect from a sGood players score goals.. Great players score IMPORTANT goals, and Berbatov doesnt do that. His 12 goals have mainly come against mediocre opposition.. 12 goals against average opponents is NOT what you expect from a so called world class striker.
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fredthered said:
You are in fact proving my point, completely.

Berbatov simply isnt good enough to warrant a place in a starting 11 when we are up against teams of real quality. Fergie would rather leave it to Rooney, and give him an extra midfielder to counterbalance the obvious leaks that would show if Berbatov were on the pitch.

Against the likes of CHelsea you cannot afford to have a striker walking around aimlessly with his hands tucked up his sleeve, not putting in half the effort the rest of the team is.. Its better to have 5 average midfielders all fighting than two world class strikers, but only one is putting any effort in.

The fact Berbatov doesnt play in the big games just adds to the argument that hes not good enough, he never was, and the £30 million we spent on him has been pretty much wasted...
Click to expand...

fredthered said:
But if you go back to his days at Spurs, you will find that the same accusations are being laid.

Hes lazy
He doenst put any effort in
He couldnt cut it against top class teams, and looked good only against average opponents
Hes arrogant

Many Spurs fans were actually glad to see the back of him, and suggested he was vastly over rated and United were stupid to pay such a huge amount for what could only be described as a slightly above average striker.

Now many United fans are saying the same things..

Two sets of fans cant be wrong...
Click to expand...

Thanks Fred!
 
Dans said:
I thought I was quite clear in what I was doing?

Pogue will stop at nothing to defend a player whom a majority (imo) of our supporters are no longer happy with and I am attacking him ad infinitum

The bitch comment is fair enough really, but Pogue finds that insufficiently high brow for this thread..........................
Click to expand...

The ultimate irony in this thread... I'm too slow to keep up :smirk:
 
fredthered said:
But if you go back to his days at Spurs, you will find that the same accusations are being laid.

Hes lazy
He doenst put any effort in
He couldnt cut it against top class teams, and looked good only against average opponents
Hes arrogant

Many Spurs fans were actually glad to see the back of him, and suggested he was vastly over rated and United were stupid to pay such a huge amount for what could only be described as a slightly above average striker.

Now many United fans are saying the same things..

Two sets of fans cant be wrong...
Click to expand...

I am not even going to discuss the lazy point.

I know a lot of Spurs supporters and it is bs that they do not rate him. He was their player of the year once for sure maybe even in both seasons. They won a trophy with him, which hadn't happened to them in a long time.

I recommend that you check out his performance vs. Arsenal, Chelsea and us before you voice your opinion on this. I would say that he is the main reason why Spurs were even fighting to finish in the top 4 in the 2 seasons he had with them.

Most of this anti-Berbatov sentiment from Spurs supporters actually is the result of him leaving them.
 
A grade said:
I am not proving your point since you are looking at this in a very one-sided way.

1st season with us:

The main man was Ronaldo,on a record goal-scoring streak with Rooney, Berbatov and Tevez having to rotate and adapt to this.

2nd season:

Ronaldo and Tevez gone, formation adjusted, Rooney played in the position that suits him the most and on a goal-scoring streak. Players behind the strikers in and out of form, stability needed in the form of an additional midfielder.

imho, Berbatov is the type of player that needs to have a run of games as a starter to show his best. He is not an impact sub.
Click to expand...

But how can you give someone a run of games, when hes so ineffective..

If someone doesnt cut the mustard, you dont just keep plodding on hoping he may change..

Look at Forlan.. Fergie stuck with him, tried and tried, and in the end had to accept that no matter what, he wasnt ever going to cut it. And the same can be said of Berbatov.

Hes been tried, hes been tested, and so far, his end product has not been good enough.. In two seasons hes been an understudy.. by now he should be pushing for himself to be the main man.. But hes not doing that.. Its now getting to the stage where an unknown Youngster is going to be understudy to Rooney and Berbatove will remain as a third option, much like he was last season.. £30 million for someone whos happy to be a third choice striker.. I dont think so.

He shows no desire to be Uniteds number one striker, and if thats the case, why the feck are we bothering with him.. Get Macheda in and let him give Rooney some competition.
 
Dans said:
I thought I was quite clear in what I was doing?

Pogue will stop at nothing to defend a player whom a majority (imo) of our supporters are no longer happy with and I am attacking him ad infinitum

The bitch comment is fair enough really, but Pogue finds that insufficiently high brow for this thread..........................
Click to expand...

I'm a bitch for defending a Manchester United player?

You're entitled to your opinion but I think that says more about you than it does about me.

I'm just glad I'm not the one who was exposed as talking out my arse with that "significant proportion of his goals" crap by someone who actually knew what they were talking about. That really would be embarrassing.
 
Yes, it says I am an awful man.

And that 30 odd % is not siginificant.

God you're boring Pogue.
 
fredthered said:
But how can you give someone a run of games, when hes so ineffective..

If someone doesnt cut the mustard, you dont just keep plodding on hoping he may change..

Look at Forlan.. Fergie stuck with him, tried and tried, and in the end had to accept that no matter what, he wasnt ever going to cut it. And the same can be said of Berbatov.
Click to expand...

Good example. Surely I'm not the only one who wonders just how good Forlan could have been if we'd given him just one more season at United, especially considering the player keeping him out of the team was already seeking out a move to Real Madrid when Forlan got shipped out?

He has been absolutely fantastic in Spain for the last few years now.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Good example. Surely I'm not the only one who wonders just how good Forlan could have been if we'd given him just one more season at United, especially considering the player keeping him out of the team was already seeking out a move to Real Madrid when Forlan got shipped out?

He has been absolutely fantastic in Spain for the last few years now.
Click to expand...

For the Aston Villa and Spurs of Spain.

Great.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Good example. Surely I'm not the only one who wonders just how good Forlan could have been if we'd given him just one more season at United, especially considering the player keeping him out of the team was already seeking out a move to Real Madrid when Forlan got shipped out?

He has been absolutely fantastic in Spain for the last few years now.
Click to expand...

Forlan was the classic example of right player, wrong club...

Berbatov for me, isnt even the right player..
 
Dans said:
Yes, it says I am an awful man.

And that 30 odd % is not siginificant.

God you're boring Pogue.
Click to expand...

Significant proportion would imply more than you would expect from any other striker playing for the same team. This was blatantly not the case.

Sorry it gets boring being told you're wrong but I can keep this up all day, don't you worry.
 
fredthered said:
Forlan was the classic example of right player, wrong club...

Berbatov for me, isnt even the right player..
Click to expand...

Sometimes - Forlan, Berbatov, Veron etc. - it can just be a simple case of players not being suited to a particular club.
 
Has anyone dug out the statistic on how many of Rooney's goals, as a proportion, are second or subsequent goals? Or Drogba's? That would surely help resolve this debate. "Significant" for this purpose is a relative term, presumably? So measure it from those two and see how "significant" the difference is.
 
A grade said:
I am not even going to discuss the lazy point.

I know a lot of Spurs supporters and it is bs that they do not rate him. He was their player of the year once for sure maybe even in both seasons. They won a trophy with him, which hadn't happened to them in a long time.

I recommend that you check out his performance vs. Arsenal, Chelsea and us before you voice your opinion on this. I would say that he is the main reason why Spurs were even fighting to finish in the top 4 in the 2 seasons he had with them.

Most of this anti-Berbatov sentiment from Spurs supporters actually is the result of him leaving them.
Click to expand...
Correct. The problem with United supporters is too many can't get that we never bought a 30 m pound player. So they keep expecting Berbatov to perform like one and keep getting frustrated and disappointed.
 
Afraid we are lumbered with him.No one really wants Berbatov.Maybe SAF will mould him into a midfielder next season because he's certainly not a striker.
 
B Cantona said:
3 in 5 for him this season, presumably why you left them out eh! :D

Yeh that's not a great record either. It's still notably better than Berbatov's record. And of course no one is knocking Rooney's contribution and performance, where a great many are with Berbatov, with good reason
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Haha yeah it was bit of creative license on my part just to show how sometimes things become distorted.

Thinking back to his first year though I remember he set up Tevez against Liverpool (a) and scored one, set up one against Chelsea (h), can't remember but think played poorly at the emirates, had the shot that rebounded for Park to score at chelsea but remember little else of that game and then didn't start against liverpool (h) or play at all Arsenal (h).

So that is 1 goal and at least 2 assists in 4 starts (unless you want to count the park one too)
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Correct. The problem with United supporters is too many can't get that we never bought a 30 m pound player. So they keep expecting Berbatov to perform like one and keep getting frustrated and disappointed.
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The whole price tag thing all over again. Maybe every time when we mention a players name in any post or thread, we should state how much we paid for them in parenthesis.
 
About Forlan, IIRC at some point he had a hot streak and was scoring goals in a row only to be benched.Berbatov never gave a hope that he could be on a hot streak, one good performance in the middle of several underwhelming ones
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Correct. The problem with United supporters is too many can't get that we never bought a 30 m pound player. So they keep expecting Berbatov to perform like one and keep getting frustrated and disappointed.
Click to expand...

We keep expecting Berbatove tp play like a £30m player?

Well how bloody daft is that.

How much was his transfer worth again?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's horseshit, to be fair.

His goal-scoring record against top teams was very good at Spurs, as it was at his previous club.

Weird that you could come out with that, being a United fan. Did you not watch him playing well (and scoring) against United?
Click to expand...

I've just had a look at his league performances against top 4 teams. The rider to this is that the Spurs match reports are shite and don't always tell you if he's played or not, so if he was injured or dropped in any of these games, I apologise

06/07

Sep 06 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 23 Scouse L3-0, no goals
Nov 05 Chelsea W2-1, no goals
Dec 02 Arse L3-0, no goals
Dec 30 Scouse L1-0, no goals
Feb 04 United L4-0, no goals
Apr 07 Chelsea L1-0, no goals
Apr 21 Arsenal D2-2, no goals

07/08

Aug 26 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 15 Arse L1-3, no goals
Oct 07 Scouse D2-2, no goals
Dec 22 Arse L2-1, 1 goal
Jan 12 Chelsea L2-0, no goals
Fab 02 United D1-1, 1 goal
Mar 20 Chelsea D4-4, 1 goal
May 11 Scouse L0-2 no goals

Obviously you don't expect Spurs to pick up too many points against these sides, although I think the money they've spent during the last few seasons and beyond they ought to have done far far better

Berbatov didn't score once in the league against a top four side in his first season; he did register 3 strikes in his second, which is much better

I saw quite a lot of Berbatov at Spurs, of course he played with a similar style and got knocked for that at times, but he was also a hell of a lot better for my money there, that he has been here. Rarely have we seen the drive of say that Arsenal goal he scored at this club

I can understand some United supporters desperately defending their player, but I think the secrets out and the majority of folk are judging him as a relative failure. If he left in the summer, I think it'd go down as a bad transfer myself
 
B Cantona said:
I've just had a look at his league performances against top 4 teams. The rider to this is that the Spurs match reports are shite and don't always tell you if he's played or not, so if he was injured or dropped in any of these games, I apologise

06/07

Sep 06 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 23 Scouse L3-0, no goals
Nov 05 Chelsea W2-1, no goals
Dec 02 Arse L3-0, no goals
Dec 30 Scouse L1-0, no goals
Feb 04 United L4-0, no goals
Apr 07 Chelsea L1-0, no goals
Apr 21 Arsenal D2-2, no goals

07/08

Aug 26 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 15 Arse L1-3, no goals
Oct 07 Scouse D2-2, no goals
Dec 22 Arse L2-1, 1 goal
Jan 12 Chelsea L2-0, no goals
Fab 02 United D1-1, 1 goal
Mar 20 Chelsea D4-4, 1 goal
May 11 Scouse L0-2 no goals

Obviously you don't expect Spurs to pick up too many points against these sides, although I think the money they've spent during the last few seasons and beyond they ought to have done far far better

Berbatov didn't score once in the league against a top four side in his first season; he did register 3 strikes in his second, which is much better

I saw quite a lot of Berbatov at Spurs, of course he played with a similar style and got knocked for that at times, but he was also a hell of a lot better for my money there, that he has been here. Rarely have we seen the drive of say that Arsenal goal he scored at this club

I can understand some United supporters desperately defending their player, but I think the secrets out and the majority of folk are judging him as a relative failure. If he left in the summer, I think it'd go down as a bad transfer myself
Click to expand...

I think the words

Pissed

Fire

your

over

all



are particularly apt with those statistics..


:D
 
B Cantona said:
I've just had a look at his league performances against top 4 teams. The rider to this is that the Spurs match reports are shite and don't always tell you if he's played or not, so if he was injured or dropped in any of these games, I apologise

06/07

Sep 06 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 23 Scouse L3-0, no goals
Nov 05 Chelsea W2-1, no goals
Dec 02 Arse L3-0, no goals
Dec 30 Scouse L1-0, no goals
Feb 04 United L4-0, no goals
Apr 07 Chelsea L1-0, no goals
Apr 21 Arsenal D2-2, no goals

07/08

Aug 26 United L1-0, no goals
Sep 15 Arse L1-3, no goals
Oct 07 Scouse D2-2, no goals
Dec 22 Arse L2-1, 1 goal
Jan 12 Chelsea L2-0, no goals
Fab 02 United D1-1, 1 goal
Mar 20 Chelsea D4-4, 1 goal
May 11 Scouse L0-2 no goals

Obviously you don't expect Spurs to pick up too many points against these sides, although I think the money they've spent during the last few seasons and beyond they ought to have done far far better

Berbatov didn't score once in the league against a top four side in his first season; he did register 3 strikes in his second, which is much better

I saw quite a lot of Berbatov at Spurs, of course he played with a similar style and got knocked for that at times, but he was also a hell of a lot better for my money there, that he has been here. Rarely have we seen the drive of say that Arsenal goal he scored at this club

I can understand some United supporters desperately defending their player, but I think the secrets out and the majority of folk are judging him as a relative failure. If he left in the summer, I think it'd go down as a bad transfer myself
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Better? It's an excellent record. When was the last time a Manchester United player scored against the 3 other English CL teams in a single season?

Bearing in mind the quality of players around him at Spurs I think your post neatly illustrates my point. It's bollox to claim that Berbatov never performed in big games for Spurs.
 
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