Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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CentreForward said:
I think the wages are calculated based on the transfer fee and the length of the contract. And for the record, I don't think he was in position to demand any more money, than initially offered by United... giving the dead line approaching and his desire to move on. If something, I am inclined to think, that he accepted less
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Eh. I didnt say he could haggle, or that he wanted more money than was offered.

The point is, it was his right to either accept the deal on the table or he could have decided the pressure and expectation of that very deal would be too much. And decide against the transfer.

He could have stayed at Spurs. He could have gone to City where there would have been less expectation. There were some reports that the Spanish clubs were interested but were told we were going to sign him so they didnt pursue it. If he had knocked us back he had other options.

What really happened is, everything was laid out and put to him. And he agreed to it.

Some things in life, you dont decide for yourself. But you make the choice to agree to them or disagree with them. And because you did so, its still on you.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The transfer fee is the biggest factor in the pressure he is under due to what we paid for him. The wages would have been similar whether we paid 20m for him or 30m. Why are you going off on this tangent anyway?

Are you so determined to try and blame Berbatov for the added pressure that comes with his inflated fee that you're actually trying to claim he should have asked for lower wages, to try and reduce the expectations that would be put upon him? That's absurd.
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Just finding the middle ground for people who keep coming up with "He didnt decide his transfer fee!"

He absolutely didnt decide it, but he agreed to the deal and everything that comes with it.
 
Ekeke said:
Eh. I didnt say he could haggle, or that he wanted more money than was offered.

The point is, it was his right to either accept the deal on the table or he could have decided the pressure and expectation of that very deal would be too much. And decide against the transfer.

He could have stayed at Spurs. He could have gone to City where there would have been less expectation. There were some reports that the Spanish clubs were interested but were told we were going to sign him so they didnt pursue it. If he had knocked us back he had other options.

What really happened is, everything was laid out and put to him. And he agreed to it.

Some things in life, you dont decide for yourself. But you make the choice to agree to them or disagree with them. And because you did so, its still on you.
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Without the benefit of hindsight no player in their right mind is going to pass up the chance to play at one of the top clubs for big money, especially when they'd succeeded in every team they'd played with so far in their career.

Would he be a stronger man if he decided not to bother even trying to make it at the very top?
 
Commadus said:
lol

I think the attitude of the fans is arguably a bigger factor in his possible exit than what he did or didn't do on the pitch.


So if Berba does leave Pogue believes the fans attitude was a factor in him leaving ergo fans have some responsibility for his possible exit. Now if you want to construe that in any other way then fine.
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SAF's transfer activity is not dictated by fans.
 
Commadus said:
Nor it seems are you.

The article labeled Berba as a £100k a week man or is that lost on you?

But the issue is Berba signed on knowing the pressure he would be under due to his fee which though was of his making it was a cross he had to bear.
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The article was about whether or not he was carrying enough change to buy an article of the Big Issue, numb-nuts.

What on earth has that got to do with pressure to perform on the pitch? Berbatov has been repeatedly referred to as a "£30m signing" throughout his United career. That is the label which defines him as a footballer, not his fecking wages.

You're really tedious, you know that?
 
If Berbatov leaves - and I don't think he will - the attitude of the fans will IMO have been a really important factor. Fergie won't want to keep playing someone who gets booed by idiots every time he draws a blank.

I think his performance on the pitch has been acceptable this season, so if he is sold in the summer then yes, the attitude of the fans will have been arguably a bigger factor than what he did on the pitch.

Anyway, this is all by the by, well done for obsessively picking the bones out of a single sentence in a post that contained 4 or 5 paragraphs.

Like I said, really tedious.
 
Commadus said:
Again the petty jibes. You talked about labels as a £100k a week man I provided an example - if you cannot see that for what it is then you are the numb-nuts.

That is all there was to that but in your anger I suppose you read into it more than was required.

So he has been labeled as a £100k a week man the fact has been established.
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It's all about context, you tedious dip-shit.

There, I said it again.

Tedious.
 
Commadus said:
Is that how you feel when you have been confronted with a statement of fact.

Shame really but shows once you're argument is dissected and challenged all you are left with is petty jibes.

Context is not the issue here.
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What a strange thing to say.

Context is everything in a debate.

Like I said, you're not very good at this.
 
At least if he's sold it will put an end to these pissing contests, I'm not a fan of Berbatov but I don't see the point in fellow United fans being at each others throats over him, we have 4 games left this season and a shot remains at a 4th straight title, yet no thread is busier than the one where fans insult each other over a player.

The truth is from his style of play to the way he carries himself he's always going to divide opinion and when he's gone, be it this summer or for free in 2 summers time, nothing will have changed.
 
Commadus said:
In regards to the use of the label £100k a week - then no which is what the post was about but again you can read more into it.

You know full well that I simply provided a reference that Berba had been labeled as a £100k a week man. That was it but you just could not accept that.
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He hasn't been labelled as a £100k a week man, it was just used in that newspaper article for effect. I've not noticed anyone else going round labelling him as that.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If Berbatov leaves - and I don't think he will - the attitude of the fans will IMO have been a really important factor. Fergie won't want to keep playing someone who gets booed by idiots every time he draws a blank.

I think his performance on the pitch has been acceptable this season, so if he is sold in the summer then yes, the attitude of the fans will have been arguably a bigger factor than what he did on the pitch.

Anyway, this is all by the by, well done for obsessively picking the bones out of a single sentence in a post that contained 4 or 5 paragraphs.

Like I said, really tedious.
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If Berba leaves it will be because we had received a decent offer for him.If United receives a 12-20m offer for him then I think that he will be sold.
 
Sultan said:
SAF's transfer activity is not dictated by fans.
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If I was him I'd have regretted signing months ago because of the fans. I hope he stays as his skill and vision is second to none but think he'll go because we've treated him like a cnut from day one.
 
Pretty sure he's just been ghosted by the looks of things...
 
Against the other Champions League qualifiers Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool (I hate the term big 4), Berbatov has started 7, come on a further 5 times (12 appearances in total), and scored... once, against Chelsea. And you've guessed it, that was an 87th minute goal at OT with the score already at 2-0

3 starts, 6 sub appearances (9 in total) in the Champions League knock out stages... no goals

So when you're looking at big game performance in terms of goal scoring... not happened for the lad, 1 goal in 21 appearances from that particular criteria. I don't think it's co-incidence, I think top defences find it quite easy to play against Berbatov
 
good read, my thoughts exactly, especially the bolded part

STATS: Berbatov at Spurs vs Berbatov at United

Manchester United forked out £30m for Dimitar Berbatov after Daniel Levy stuck to the asking price we didn’t want to pay. The downside for us was we had to pay over the odds for a player Sir Alex Ferguson really wanted, whilst Tottenham had a load of money in the bank but couldn’t do anything with it given the deal was concluded at midnight on the transfer deadline day.

The general feeling from our fans was happiness and excitement though. We had learnt that morning that City had got involved, had met the asking price we had yet to, and were offering the player far more in wages than we would be able to. For us to secure the deal made for what was probably the most exciting transfer deadline day ever for us.

However, with that £30m price tag came a huge amount of responsibility for the Bulgarian striker. Despite not even bothering to meet Mark Hughes, knowing that at the very least it would probably drive up the wages United were prepared to offer, United fans rightly had high expectations of the massively expensive player.

In his first season, he struggled to meet those expectations and struggled to win over the fans. His touch, link up play and vision were there for all to see, but for a £30m striker, you want goals, and the 9 he scored in the league were rightly not seen as a good enough return. However, for the Berbafans, it was hard to ignore that only one player in the Premiership assisted more goals than him, with creativity being a major selling point for the player.

This season, Berbatov has greatly improved on the goalscoring front and has crept in to the top ten scorers in the league. Considering his knee injury in the first half of the season and the manager’s decision to exclude him when playing 451 for certain games, this is an impressive feat.

But now that Berbatov is scoring more freely, our fans still have an axe to grind/bangwagon to jump on, and this reached its climax at Blackburn on Sunday.

So, have United got the player Sir Alex wanted? We knew we weren’t getting a Carlos Tevez type, who would chase down every loose ball, but is the Berbatov we have the player the manager wanted? He knew £30m was too much, that’s why he refused the deal all summer, but in the end paid out the money. But is he a shadow of the player he was at Spurs? Are the fans who cleverly dub him ********* well within their rights?

We’re going to look at the goals and assists, like always, but there’s now the added element of what percentage of their teams’ goals the players were behind. To give you some comparison, last season Rooney scored 12, assisted 7, and that works out at 28% of Manchester United’s total goals scored. You would rightly expect Berbatov’s goal contribution at Spurs to be a lot higher than for us.

We’re also going to look at the stats of two former reds who were the hard working types, who ran non-stop for 90 minutes, who were totally adored by our fans, to see where the priorities of our fans lie in qualities they look for in a striker. How has Berbatov contributed in comparison to them and is goal contribution enough if you’re not going to run around trying to win every ball?

Dimitar Berbatov 2006/2007

Minutes: 2715

Goals: 12 (8th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 226 minutes (3 hours 46 minutes)

Assists: 11 (4th)

Goals and assists: 23

Goals scored/created: 1 per 118 minutes (1 hour 58 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 40%

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Dimitar Berbatov 2007/2008

Minutes: 2991

Goals: 15 (5th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 199 minutes (3 hours 19 minutes)

Assists: 11 (4th)

Goals and assists: 26

Goals scored/created: 1 per 115 minutes (1 hour 55 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 39%

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2008/2009

Minutes: 2643

Goals: 9 (25th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 294 minutes (4 hours 54 minutes)

Assists: 10 (2nd)

Goals and assists: 19

Goals scored/created: 1 per 139 minutes (2 hours 19 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 28%

2009/2010

Minutes: 1851 minutes

Goals: 12 (10th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 154 minutes (2 hours 34 minutes)

Assists: 6 (22nd)

Goals and assists: 18

Goals scored/created: 1 goal per 103 minutes (1 hour 43 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 23%

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Alan Smith 2004/2005

Minutes: 2038

Goals: 6 (44th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 340 minutes (5 hours 40 minutes)

Assists: 4 (35th)

Goals and assists: 10

Goals scored/created: 1 goal per 204 minutes (3 hours 24 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 17%

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Carlos Tevez 2007/2008

Minutes: 2685 minutes

Goals: 14 (9th)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 192 minutes (2 hours 72 minutes)

Assists: 7 assists (18th)

Goals and assists: 21

Goals scored/created: 1 per 128 minutes (2 hours 8 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 26%

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Carlos Tevez 2008/2009

Minutes: 1856

Goals: 5 (53rd)

Goals per minute: 1 goal per 371 minutes (6 hours 11 minutes)

Assists: 3 (74th highest in the league)

Goals and assists: 8

Goals scored/created: 1 per 232 minutes (3 hours 52 minutes)

Percentage of team’s goals scored/created: 12%

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Conclusion: The number of goals Berbatov has scored and created this season is of a higher rate than any of his four years in England, higher than both Carlos Tevez’s years at United as well as Alan Smith’s first year at United (and only year he played as an out and out striker).

Berbatov has scored/assisted almost a quarter of a goals this season, despite not playing anywhere near as much, and scored/assisted over a quarter of our goals last season when competing with the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Tevez.

Looking at this season, Berbatov has scored or created a goal for United almost once a game, (1 per game + 13 minutes), but that doesn’t get any credit, whilst Tevez needed almost four hours to score or assist a goal last season, and Smithy needed three and a half hours.

Interesting then that Berbatov is considered a **** and is booed by sections of our support, whilst Carlos Tevez and Alan Smith were adored.

What does that tell us about the standards of some United fans? Running around and looking to be working hard is a more admirable quality in a striker than scoring and creating goals. Great.

If Berbatov cost us £10m I honestly don’t think there would be a problem but that price tag is the worst thing that could ever happen to him. I have long been a defender of Berbatov but I am now beginning to side with those who think we should get rid. He is never going to prosper in the increasingly hostile environment our fans are creating, so maybe it is time he got out and joined a club where he could be adored, the way we adored Tevez and Smith. The manager hasn’t adapted our tactics to suit Berbatov, the way he has done for Ruud van Nistelrooy, Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney, so maybe that tells us all we need to know. The manager wanted him enough to eventually pay out £30m but not enough to take a risk in trying to find tactics which will compliment him, so there’s not a lot Berbatov can do about it. Against top sides, the manager is worried we’ll be overrun in midfield, a possible indication of the lacking of world class quality in this position, and the Bulgarian pays the price. If we had a Roy Keane-Paul Scholes at their peak combination, would the manager feel the need to play five midfielders and just one striker? Regardless, the press fancy his time to be up and if he leaves now he can go down in the history books as a Manchester United ****, a title I’m sure Levy will be happy with, knowing his price tag always ensured it would be given. But it all could have been so different.

I wonder how much Newcastle would want for Smithy eh? Berb out, Smith in? Or better still, let’s sign that Karim Benzema, who turned us down in the summer to kiss the Real Madrid’s badge, and then our fans will be happy.
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Fletcher's Jilted Lover said:
good read, my thoughts exactly, especially the bolded part

STATS: Berbatov at Spurs vs Berbatov at United
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alan smith was liked because he broke his leg for the cause. but it certainly wasn't unanimous support.

mind you there is a significant portion of united support who didn't want the sheep shagging bastard anywhere near the club, and it was painfully obvious he had no where near the ability to required to play for united. 7 million quid for him was as big of a joke as 30 for the bulgarian. mind you, smith's at home in the championship as that's his level.
 
VoetbalWizard said:
alan smith was liked because he broke his leg for the cause. but it certainly wasn't unanimous support.

mind you there is a significant portion of united support who didn't want the sheep shagging bastard anywhere near the club, and it was painfully obvious he had no where near the ability to required to play for united. 7 million quid for him was as big of a joke as 30 for the bulgarian. mind you, smith's at home in the championship as that's his level.
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Tbh Smudge's role for us was downplayed loads... when he first signed injuries made him an important part of our attack, and he did a great job of grabbing goals for us... His volley against Norwich and his tackle and goal against Fulham (feck me what a tackle!) make me remember him fondly, even though injuries as well as his not being a top notch striker meant that he wouldn't be remembered for being our best offensive solution. Still, to say what won people over was his injury... well, I just hope that's not true.
 
A grade said:
He did get stick, but it was the whole team, not just him. But being the team captain and biggest star, it is automatic that he got most criticism directed at him. The team was shite overall and lost points in matches that were a 'given' on paper.

As for the blog, he made a statement a couple of weeks ago on his blog directed at a number of the Bulgarian media who have been criticizing him both over his national side performances but mostly, over his United performances. The funny thing is that most of these local journalists would base their articles on the stuff that is being spewed on a daily basis by the English press.
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Individually he was getting massive stick. It obviously bothers him big-time as well.
 
Name Changed said:
Individually he was getting massive stick. It obviously bothers him big-time as well.
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He doesn't respond to praise though.

He's had his name chanted in recent times and it hasn't made a jot of difference. Fergie talked him up pre Chelsea game...didn't do a thing.
 
Sunny Jim said:
so according to these stats 1st season Tevez > 1st season Berbatov.


hardly a surprise tbh
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Nope. And I don't think anyone has ever tried to claim any different, so that's not a very controversial opinion. You can look for reasons why Tevez created/scored more frequently in his debut than Berbatov did (e.g. Ronaldo on fire throughout 07/08 but started the folllowing season injured and took a while to get going) but it's a widely accepted fact that Tevez had a more productice season in 07/08 than Berbatov did in 08/09.

Of course, another fact these stats confirm is that during the one season when Berbatov and Tevez both played as part of an identical squad of players, in the same season, with the same injuries to other key players, Berbatov was absolutely miles more productive than Tevez. For some strange reason this was a controversial opinion to express at the time. Go figure.

Finally, we can also conclude - based on those stats - that Berbatov has been considerably more productive this season than Tevez was at any time in his United career.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Finally, we can also conclude - based on those stats - that Berbatov has been considerably more productive this season than Tevez was at any time in his United career.
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Depends on how we define "productive", the form of Tevez that year helped produce the CL and the PL. His performanes in the big games like the semis against Barca were sensational. All the little things a player like Tevez does (pressuring defenders etc) rarely show up in stats.
 
Sharky7 said:
Depends on how we define "productive", the form of Tevez that year helped produce the CL and the PL. His performanes in the big games like the semis against Barca were sensational. All the little things a player like Tevez does (pressuring defenders etc) rarely show up in stats.
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Yeah, you can't define a player purely on stats/assists and Tevez made a big contribution with his work-rate and desire. I'm not trying to knock Tevez, to be honest, I think he let himself down with his general level of performance last season but he was a cracking wee player the season before.

The reason I'm comparing the two of them is because it's been such a hot topic on here these last few years and I think Berbatov gets stick (and Tevez gets praise) for reasons that go beyond what they actually produce on the pitch. I think this is at it's worst this season when Berbatov has actually been one of our better players and has made the most of almost every opportunity he has been given but has not got the credit he deserves, due to in lareg parts to residual bitterness from the whole Tevez v Berba crap of seasons gone by (which hasn't been helped by Tevez pulling his finger out for the bitters and being more productive than he has ever been in a United shirt).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, you can't define a player purely on stats/assists and Tevez made a big contribution with his work-rate and desire. I'm not trying to knock Tevez, to be honest, I think he let himself down with his general level of performance last season but he was a cracking wee player the season before.

The reason I'm comparing the two of them is because it's been such a hot topic on here these last few years and I think Berbatov gets stick (and Tevez gets praise) for reasons that go beyond what they actually produce on the pitch. I think this is at it's worst this season when Berbatov has actually been one of our better players and has made the most of almost every opportunity he has been given but has not got the credit he deserves, due to in lareg parts to residual bitterness from the whole Tevez v Berba crap of seasons gone by (which hasn't been helped by Tevez pulling his finger out for the bitters and being more productive than he has ever been in a United shirt).
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Good post Pogue, some very valid points. I wonder if Berbatov would've suffered the same amount of stick had he not replaced such a crowd favourite? Probably not.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nope. And I don't think anyone has ever tried to claim any different, so that's not a very controversial opinion. You can look for reasons why Tevez created/scored more frequently in his debut than Berbatov did (e.g. Ronaldo on fire throughout 07/08 but started the folllowing season injured and took a while to get going) but it's a widely accepted fact that Tevez had a more productice season in 07/08 than Berbatov did in 08/09.

Of course, another fact these stats confirm is that during the one season when Berbatov and Tevez both played as part of an identical squad of players, in the same season, with the same injuries to other key players, Berbatov was absolutely miles more productive than Tevez. For some strange reason this was a controversial opinion to express at the time. Go figure.

Finally, we can also conclude - based on those stats - that Berbatov has been considerably more productive this season than Tevez was at any time in his United career.
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I agree with some points.

Yes Berbatov has been a better for us this season in comparison to his last season’s efforts. Imo the change has been dramatic and it baffles me why so many people decided to air their frustration now since they had much more reasons 12 months ago.

No matter how you read 2008/2009 stats it obvious that stats favour Berbatov. But you could argue with them as well – imo and that’s just a opinion – Fergie set up United to accommodate Berbatov not Tevez. I don’t know if could explain what SAF exactly did- hard to quantify that sort of observation. I really felt that Tevez was a stranger in that team.

These stats show more though- why did SAF decide to bring anyone to replace Tevez since he a good 1st season with us and could become only better? Why Berbatov’s results at Spurs are way better from his record at United. This guy is a mystery for me.

As I said before – I would have happily send him China 12 months ago, now i have my doubts. Imo hes good enough to be our 3rd choice striker next season.
 
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