Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, you can't define a player purely on stats/assists and Tevez made a big contribution with his work-rate and desire. I'm not trying to knock Tevez, to be honest, I think he let himself down with his general level of performance last season but he was a cracking wee player the season before.

The reason I'm comparing the two of them is because it's been such a hot topic on here these last few years and I think Berbatov gets stick (and Tevez gets praise) for reasons that go beyond what they actually produce on the pitch. I think this is at it's worst this season when Berbatov has actually been one of our better players and has made the most of almost every opportunity he has been given but has not got the credit he deserves, due to in lareg parts to residual bitterness from the whole Tevez v Berba crap of seasons gone by (which hasn't been helped by Tevez pulling his finger out for the bitters and being more productive than he has ever been in a United shirt).
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While I would agree that Berbatov has been decent this season, he just hasn't proved his worth. Not in terms of the money paid for him, but in terms of what he was going to bring to the team as an individual and as a player.

If his scale was set as someone like Carrick, someone who'd do his job but won't really step up when the game gets tough or grab the game by the scruff of its neck, then fine. But he was brought in and expected to do much more.

Finally, he was brought in to add a central point and fluidity to our attack which has happened too sporadically. More so and most importantly, we can't rely on him for goals. Which is a basic necessity for any striker.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, you can't define a player purely on stats/assists and Tevez made a big contribution with his work-rate and desire. I'm not trying to knock Tevez, to be honest, I think he let himself down with his general level of performance last season but he was a cracking wee player the season before.

The reason I'm comparing the two of them is because it's been such a hot topic on here these last few years and I think Berbatov gets stick (and Tevez gets praise) for reasons that go beyond what they actually produce on the pitch. I think this is at it's worst this season when Berbatov has actually been one of our better players and has made the most of almost every opportunity he has been given but has not got the credit he deserves, due to in lareg parts to residual bitterness from the whole Tevez v Berba crap of seasons gone by (which hasn't been helped by Tevez pulling his finger out for the bitters and being more productive than he has ever been in a United shirt).
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i find it funny but i agree....

123567 posts of arguing, 12 months of calling each other names ....
 
I can see the usual people on here defending Berbatov's honour right to the bitter end. Lost cause folks, when the chips were down Berbatov has let the club down big time. It's a damn shame but if a decent offer comes in for him (which I expect it will) then he'll be off in the summer.

In the end, he probably joined the club at the wrong time, coming from Spurs for such a hefty price has put far too much expectations on his shoulders and frankly he's wilted under the pressure. Could have been a different story if he came directly from Bayer Leverkusen, when Ronaldo/Rooney weren't so high profile.
 
RedSky At Night said:
I can see the usual people on here defending Berbatov's honour right to the bitter end. Lost cause folks, when the chips were down Berbatov has let the club down big time. It's a damn shame but if a decent offer comes in for him (which I expect it will) then he'll be off in the summer.

In the end, he probably joined the club at the wrong time, coming from Spurs for such a hefty price has put far too much expectations on his shoulders and frankly he's wilted under the pressure. Could have been a different story if he came directly from Bayer Leverkusen, when Ronaldo/Rooney weren't so high profile.
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Cracking post that. Really adds to what's been discussed over the last dozen or so pages.
 
So we're all agreed then.

Thank feck for that.

Ciao Dimi.
 
For the Stat lovers

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30m on the ability to complete over 75% dribbling. Money well spent in my book.
 
Redfighter said:
I don't need those stats to tell me that Tevez is a better and more effective footballer than Berbatov. I'd pick Tevez over Berbatov every time on footballing terms, but I still dislike the way the the little cnut acted during the last few months of his time with us.
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You might not, but others like their stats. That much has becoming glaringly obvious in this thread. It's reminiscent of corporate scorecard culture which so inadequately reflects real contribution.
 
Dans said:
You might not, but others like their stats. That much has becoming glaringly obvious in this thread. It's reminiscent of corporate scorecard culture which so inadequately reflects real contribution.
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The thing about stats is they can sometimes cut through the bullshit propagated by certain posters about players they don't personally rate. That myth about Berbatov scoring the majority of his goals this season when we're two goals to the good, for example.
 
Sunny Jim said:
No matter how you read 2008/2009 stats it obvious that stats favour Berbatov. But you could argue with them as well – imo and that’s just a opinion – Fergie set up United to accommodate Berbatov not Tevez. I don’t know if could explain what SAF exactly did- hard to quantify that sort of observation. I really felt that Tevez was a stranger in that team.
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I agree whole heartedly with this, its a little difficult to explain but its obvious our play changed last season to accomodate Berbatov. Since he hasnt turned out to be the hit we expected we have reverted to a style that has rooney playing up on his own.
 
Boss said:
For the Stat lovers

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Looking at the difference between appearances and minutes is important here for me. Although their apearance stats are similar, Tevez has actually played in and completed a further 7 whole matches. Berbatov's stats are more similar to Tevez's last season where he scored 5 goals in the league.

That isn't to say that Tevez hasn't been more productive for City than berbatov for United but they're different players playing differing roles and Tevez was never this productive for us anyway.
 
AllhailManUtd said:
I agree whole heartedly with this, its a little difficult to explain but its obvious our play changed last season to accomodate Berbatov. Since he hasnt turned out to be the hit we expected we have reverted to a style that has rooney playing up on his own.
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I think our play was more geared to the fact Ronaldo was playing further and further forward and doing less and less tracking back.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The thing about stats is they can sometimes cut through the bullshit propagated by certain posters about players they don't personally rate. That myth about Berbatov scoring the majority of his goals this season when we're two goals to the good, for example.
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I never said the majority. I said a significant number. And I was proven right. Stats don't show you all that bullshit about putting in effort on the pitch do they?
 
Dans said:
I never said the majority. I said a significant number. And I was proven right. Stats don't show you all that bullshit about putting in effort on the pitch do they?
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Just over a third of them were, aye. Pretty much the same as any striker who plays for a high-scoring team, I reckon.

It also turns out that a larger proportion of goals he scored were our first in the game. Not sure that makes you "proved right" at all.

As for effort on the pitch, no, I would argue you don't need stats to see that Berbatov will never work as hard as the likes of Rooey or Tevez but is nowhere near as lazy as some make out. I agree that this is hard to prove/dispSo long as stats help to expose at least some of the bullshit talked on here, that's all good with me.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just over a third of them were, aye. Pretty much the same as any striker who plays for a high-scoring team, I reckon.

It also turns out that a larger proportion of goals he scored were our first in the game.

But you were proved right, were you?
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And of them goals, how many of them were against top class opposition ?

How many times, against top 10 teams has Berbatov been the man of hte match, the one to turn the game on its head and show the £30 million of class that we paid for him ?

Good players score goals.. Great players score IMPORTANT goals, and Berbatov doesnt do that.

His 12 goals have mainly come against mediocre opposition.. 12 goals against average opponents is NOT what you expect from a so called world class striker.
 
I never thought I'd see the day where I agreed with anything Fredthered said, but that day has indeed come. I guess this could be the begining of a beautiful...............yeah, whatever.
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
Looking at the difference between appearances and minutes is important here for me. Although their apearance stats are similar, Tevez has actually played in and completed a further 7 whole matches. Berbatov's stats are more similar to Tevez's last season where he scored 5 goals in the league.

That isn't to say that Tevez hasn't been more productive for City than berbatov for United but they're different players playing differing roles and Tevez was never this productive for us anyway.
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All very good points, I would also argue that Tevez is having to do his thing with significantly shitter team mates at Shitty than Berba has the luxary to work with at United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just over a third of them were, aye. Pretty much the same as any striker who plays for a high-scoring team, I reckon.

It also turns out that a larger proportion of goals he scored were our first in the game.

But you were proved right, were you?
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Anyone would think you were Dimi's girl.
 
fredthered said:
And of them goals, how many of them were against top class opposition ?

How many times, against top 10 teams has Berbatov been the man of hte match, the one to turn the game on its head and show the £30 million of class that we paid for him ?

Good players score goals.. Great players score IMPORTANT goals, and Berbatov doesnt do that.

His 12 goals have mainly come against mediocre opposition.. 12 goals against average opponents is NOT what you expect from a so called world class striker.
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How many times has Berbatov started against top class opposition? How many times have we played with 2 strikers against top class opposition? This brings up the question of midfield again and why SAF sees the need to play with 5 people behind one striker.

This discussion is going around in circles.
 
You either love him (to fecking bits and wish you were his bitch) or you don't. Pogue. Me.

Basta.

Ciao Dimi.
 
B Cantona said:
Against the other Champions League qualifiers Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool (I hate the term big 4), Berbatov has started 7, come on a further 5 times (12 appearances in total), and scored... once, against Chelsea. And you've guessed it, that was an 87th minute goal at OT with the score already at 2-0

3 starts, 6 sub appearances (9 in total) in the Champions League knock out stages... no goals

So when you're looking at big game performance in terms of goal scoring... not happened for the lad, 1 goal in 21 appearances from that particular criteria. I don't think it's co-incidence, I think top defences find it quite easy to play against Berbatov
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Come on Pogue, don't be disingenuous. You've seen these stats now and you love your stats. In games against the regular top 4 of the last few seasons, and knockout European football, he's scored 1 goal in 21 appearances, and that an icing on the already baked cake job. If that had been Tevez you'd be on it like a rash showing us how this proves Berbatov was the better player, so what say ye?
 
A grade said:
How many times has Berbatov started against top class opposition? How many times have we played with 2 strikers against top class opposition? This brings up the question of midfield again and why SAF sees the need to play with 5 people behind one striker.

This discussion is going around in circles.
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Myths that he never had his chances imho
 
A grade said:
How many times has Berbatov started against top class opposition? How many times have we played with 2 strikers against top class opposition? This brings up the question of midfield again and why SAF sees the need to play with 5 people behind one striker.

This discussion is going around in circles.
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You are in fact proving my point, completely.

Berbatov simply isnt good enough to warrant a place in a starting 11 when we are up against teams of real quality. Fergie would rather leave it to Rooney, and give him an extra midfielder to counterbalance the obvious leaks that would show if Berbatov were on the pitch.

Against the likes of CHelsea you cannot afford to have a striker walking around aimlessly with his hands tucked up his sleeve, not putting in half the effort the rest of the team is.. Its better to have 5 average midfielders all fighting than two world class strikers, but only one is putting any effort in.

The fact Berbatov doesnt play in the big games just adds to the argument that hes not good enough, he never was, and the £30 million we spent on him has been pretty much wasted...
 
Boss said:
Myths that he never had his chances imho
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It seems like it goes a bit deeper than this but I accept your point. It is about finding his place on the team, feeling comfortable and confident in it and generating results because of this.

Like he was at Spurs.

I am also disappointed with him since I know he has a lot more that he can give but it never clicked for a number of reasons that have been dissected here a thousand times.

I just want people to see his contribution to our last 2 seasons and to objectively look at all the factors that have contributed to why he never lived up to the hype created by the media and in all honesty, by all of us as supporters.
 
Boss said:
All very good points, I would also argue that Tevez is having to do his thing with significantly shitter team mates at Shitty than Berba has the luxary to work with at United.
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Yeah I'd agree with that, strange he never scored as many goals when he had the luxury of playing for us.

B Cantona said:
Come on Pogue, don't be disingenuous. You've seen these stats now and you love your stats. In games against the regular top 4 of the last few seasons, and knockout European football, he's scored 1 goal in 21 appearances, and that an icing on the already baked cake job. If that had been Tevez you'd be on it like a rash showing us how this proves Berbatov was the better player, so what say ye?
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Not going to look at Europe because i'm lazy and meant to be doing work but before this year Rooney had a 4 in 24 record against the other top 4 teams, which isn't at all great.
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
Not going to look at Europe because i'm lazy and meant to be doing work but before this year Rooney had a 4 in 24 record against the other top 4 teams, which isn't at all great.
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3 in 5 for him this season, presumably why you left them out eh! :D

Yeh that's not a great record either. It's still notably better than Berbatov's record. And of course no one is knocking Rooney's contribution and performance, where a great many are with Berbatov, with good reason
 
He's fecking high maintenance then? So he's like an annoying girlfriend.

Basta.

Ciao Dimi.
 
A grade said:
I just want people to see his contribution to our last 2 seasons and to objectively look at all the factors that have contributed to why he never lived up to the hype created by the media and in all honesty, by all of us as supporters.
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But if you go back to his days at Spurs, you will find that the same accusations are being laid.

Hes lazy
He doenst put any effort in
He couldnt cut it against top class teams, and looked good only against average opponents
Hes arrogant

Many Spurs fans were actually glad to see the back of him, and suggested he was vastly over rated and United were stupid to pay such a huge amount for what could only be described as a slightly above average striker.

Now many United fans are saying the same things..

Two sets of fans cant be wrong...
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
Yeah I'd agree with that, strange he never scored as many goals when he had the luxury of playing for us.



Not going to look at Europe because i'm lazy and meant to be doing work but before this year Rooney had a 4 in 24 record against the other top 4 teams, which isn't at all great.
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He's not the only one. Ronaldo in his time got criticised with being a "big game bottler", as did Thierry Henry.

The thing is, big four teams concede relatively few goals which means there are all sorts of oddities when it comes to analysing players' goal-scoring by comparing their record against the big four with their record against teams from lower down the league.

Using that logic, John O'Shea is the best striker on our books.
 
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