Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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Pogue Mahone said:
You'e got some nerve. After spending all season publically creaming yourself over a Barcelona player it's a bit rich to call a United fan who is bigging up one of our own players a "fanboi".

He was also factually correct in saying Berbatov could have joined City but turned them down. So the other word in that post is just as inaccurate and inappropriate as the term "fanboi".
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Yeah well Lionel Messi is the best player in the world, Berbatov well, let's not actually go there. I can sense the bias in his post, lucky to have him? Please, lucky to have a veron 2 who does his thing predominantly against the smaller siides? Well atleast Veron did his thing for us in the bigger games at times. You can't convince me after 2 seasons that we got 'lucky' with this transfer.

I thought Berbatov originally wanted to join Barca anyway, what happened to that.
 
gaffs said:
No one was moaning about the midfield when they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Tevez & Rooney to pass to.
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Yes they were, actually.

Having Giggs/Scholes a couple of years younger and Hargreaves available definitely helped but you're kidding yourself if you don't think Ronaldo's brilliance wasn't compensating for weaknesses in other areas of the pitch.

I mean, all you need to do is look back at our performances against Liverpool and Arsenal over the last few years to see we were never gonna cope this season with a numerical disadvantage in midfield.
 
As an aside, I watched a game on MUTV the other day with Veron in it, he was absolutely outstanding. Really, really good. Far better than I remembered.

The Veron comparison is telling. A fabulous player, just the wrong player for that point in time.
 
I know I posted this in the newbies but I can't recall if I did it here.

Heh heh.

I hate to bring up Tevez into this but I think we should all be able to agree that judging a player on two seasons would be erroneous. Look at him over at City, he's playing better than he ever did for United.

The important thing is that Berbatov appears to be improving, surely we should reserve our judgment for a few more months at least.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
I know I posted this in the newbies but I can't recall if I did it here.

Heh heh.

I hate to bring up Tevez into this but I think we should all be able to agree that judging a player on two seasons would be erroneous. Look at him over at City, he's playing better than he ever did for United.

The important thing is that Berbatov appears to be improving, surely we should reserve our judgment for a few more months at least.
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If you can't judge a player at the peak of his career after 2 seasons then when can you?
 
I dont think Tevez would be playing as well for us this season if we had kept him as he is at City.

He clearly had a problem playing second fiddle. As Pogue pointed out earlier, part of this conundrum is finding the right balance of talent and willingness to sit out a fair few big games. Tevez wasnt willing to do that without constant whining.
 
What would have been a Berbatov discussion without stats? Stats are even used to convey that he plays well at times, i.e he made more tackles than....etc

There are alot of good players you just watch and know they have performed well. I've never seen statistics used as frequently for a player than Dimitar Berbatov. I wonder, why is that?
 
Boss said:
If you can't judge a player at the peak of his career after 2 seasons then when can you?
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I don't think it's prudent to reach a conclusion about their ability after only two seasons.

Simon Adebesi said:
I dont think Tevez would be playing as well for us this season if we had kept him as he is at City.

He clearly had a problem playing second fiddle. As Pogue pointed out earlier, part of this conundrum is finding the right balance of talent and willingness to sit out a fair few big games. Tevez wasnt willing to do that without constant whining.
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There is certainly the idea that new surroundings might boost performance. However, how might have he performed had we been successful in retaining him? Either way, two seasons is too early to judge imo.
 
Commadus said:
Hypothetical

If you knew now what Berba has achieved before he was about to sign would you have signed him?

I think 2 years for an experienced player is time enough to judge him. This is Berba 4th season in the EPL.
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Forth season,correct with better midfielders than he ever had at Spurs but our midfield is the problem?
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
There is certainly the idea that new surroundings might boost performance. However, how might have he performed had we been successful in retaining him? Either way, two seasons is too early to judge imo.
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He needed to be first choice, to be a big fish in a small (massive) pond.

To be fair he was always really good for us. I remember at the start of last season arguing he should retain his place in the side at Rooney's expense based on form (I have always been a believer in rewarding form, on the basis that your best players will always play themselves back into the side anyway, on the basis of being the best players, while the carrot of getting into the team and staying there serves to motivate the players on the edges of the squad.) However, SAF didnt work it like that. Rooney played whenever available and Tevez had to feed off the scraps. He wasnt willing to do that and the stop-starting undermined his form.

It is just an entirely different situation at City.
 
Boss said:
What would have been a Berbatov discussion without stats? Stats are even used to convey that he plays well at times, i.e he made more tackles than....etc

There are alot of good players you just watch and know they have performed well. I've never seen statistics used as frequently for a player than Dimitar Berbatov. I wonder, why is that?
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Because muppets seem to have this notion that he doesn't tackle or doesn't run, and essentially just sort of sits in the centre circle doing the occasional fancy flick.
 
SharkyMcShark said:
Because muppets seem to have this notion that he doesn't tackle or doesn't run, and essentially just sort of sits in the centre circle doing the occasional fancy flick.
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I so much enjoyed the work Tevez put in when the ball played into his feet bounce 5 yard away and he made such a great effort to get it back. Now that was football.

Everyone loves a trier.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
He needed to be first choice, to be a big fish in a small (massive) pond.
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Aye, there's no disputing that.

Simon Adebesi said:
To be fair he was always really good for us. I remember at the start of last season arguing he should retain his place in the side at Rooney's expense based on form (I have always been a believer in rewarding form, on the basis that your best players will always play themselves back into the side anyway, on the basis of being the best players, while the carrot of getting into the team and staying there serves to motivate the players on the edges of the squad.) However, SAF didnt work it like that. Rooney played whenever available and Tevez had to feed off the scraps. He wasnt willing to do that and the stop-starting undermined his form.

It is just an entirely different situation at City.
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He worked hard but he didn't score enough in his second season, whether that was from sulking, bad luck or poor form no one can know for certain, all I can say is that he has improved a great deal this year over last in the measure that forward players are judged most often: goals.
 
Commadus said:
Both Tevez and Berba entered the EPL in the 06/7 season and since then their records are

Berb 183 appearances, 72 goals
Tevez 164 apperances, 67 goals

There really isnt much to separate them.
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At the end of this season, each will have had 2 seasons with United. Lets compare stats for United then. As I could care less how Berba performed for Spurs, or Tevez for West Ham/City.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Aye, there's no disputing that.



He worked hard but he didn't score enough in his second season, whether that was from sulking, bad luck or poor form no one can know for certain, all I can say is that he has improved a great deal this year over last in the measure that forward players are judged most often: goals.
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I know for certain.

What I said above is correct.
 
Twisted_Woody said:
At the end of this season, each will have had 2 seasons with United. Lets compare stats for United then. As I could care less how Berba performed for Spurs, or Tevez for West Ham/City.
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It will all be pointless. Unless Berbatov suddenly becomes a candidate for the Ballon D'Or or FIFA Player of the Year having scored 50 goals, 16 of them bicycle kicks, most that dislike him for pulling on a United shirt won't give a toss.

If he scores another 3-4 till the end of the season, I'll be fairly pleased. I think him and Rooney will continue to do well next year when they do get to play together.

He's been a very good player to have even against the lesser teams, where 3 points against them (and goals at end of the season if it comes down to goal difference) count as much as top teams.

Simon said it earlier - all these back and forth discussions aren't going to change pro or con stance of Berbatov. At least not this season. Even if he wins us the league in the next 5 games.

Trudging out the stats won't change people's opinions.
 
Before this season, you could compare the stats between Berbatov and Rooney and I bet they are similar too but that tells you nothing.

It doesn't convey how well somebody has played or the effect they have had in big games, these stats don't convey to us whether a player scores when the game is already won etc, which goals are decisive etc
 
SharkyMcShark said:
Because muppets seem to have this notion that he doesn't tackle or doesn't run, and essentially just sort of sits in the centre circle doing the occasional fancy flick.
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Muppets. People who don't share your view.

By your own defintion, I am should call you a muppet.

Where does this get us?

Nowhere.

You think Berbatov is great. I don't.

Ferguson's defence of Berbatov smacked of a manager not particularly overwhelmed with his striker looking in fact to big him up, Sharky McShark style.....................in order that some other team please make a bid for the lazy mofo.
 
Boss said:
Before this season, you could compare the stats between Berbatov and Rooney and I bet they are similar too but that tells you nothing.

It doesn't convey how well somebody has played or the effect they have had in big games, these stats don't convey to us whether a player scores when the game is already won etc, which goals are decisive etc
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Case in point. No use trying to use stats to people that hold an extreme view on Berbatov's lack of worth. They will easily be dismissed.
 
Two years ago, we used to have Ronaldo up with Tevez and Rooney dropping deep and win the ball. Many used to point that we did that because Ronaldo's ability to track back was a bit shite which was partly true. Stating that we did that also because our midfield was weak.

Now Scholes and Giggs had grown 2 year older. Tevez is gone, Rooney has to stick as our main striker and Berba is hardly renowned for his workrate. So workrate wise yes we had gone worse.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
As an aside, I watched a game on MUTV the other day with Veron in it, he was absolutely outstanding. Really, really good. Far better than I remembered.

The Veron comparison is telling. A fabulous player, just the wrong player for that point in time.
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It was Keano that never let Veron settle.

I dont think anyone is making life difficult for Berbatov.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yes they were, actually.

Having Giggs/Scholes a couple of years younger and Hargreaves available definitely helped but you're kidding yourself if you don't think Ronaldo's brilliance wasn't compensating for weaknesses in other areas of the pitch.

I mean, all you need to do is look back at our performances against Liverpool and Arsenal over the last few years to see we were never gonna cope this season with a numerical disadvantage in midfield.
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It was covering things up, but that’s my point.

Because we were so strong up top, we could get away with being a little weak in midfield.

All teams have areas that are weaker than others but they find ways to compensate and cover them up.
 
gaffs said:
It was covering things up, but that’s my point.

Because we were so strong up top, we could get away with being a little weak in midfield.

All teams have areas that are weaker than others but they find ways to compensate and cover them up.
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Correct.

Which is my point.

The deficiencies in central midfield are the reason why we play 451 in all our big games. Going 442 against the best sides in Europe with our current midfielders would be suicide.

(I'm fairly sure that point's been made before)
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Would have thought a player should suit the system, not the system should suit a player who isn't even the best in his position at the club.
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Im not sure how to come back on this. I mean, Berbs is the player he is. It was Fergie's responsibility to pick a player that fit with the system. What is the point in buying a player and then trying to make him fundamentally different to fit a system?

This is why I am prepared to accept maybe it isnt going to work out with Berbs (though if SAF is up for persevering with him I would be very happy) but I dont think the player is to blame. The manager has to take responsibility for it, one of the transfers that didnt work out.

But I do agree with you in that Rooney is a better player in his position, so the team should be designed to get he most out of him.
 
Commadus said:
If the system as you say is making it difficult for Berba to settle and if he is as god as you make out then why doesnt Berba say enough is enough let me move on?

If I don't like my place of work I do have a choice to leave.
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I think maybe he should. And I think maybe he will.

I cant see Fergie keeping him unless something is going to change. We want to play one up front, he doesnt like Berbs up front on his own. What is the point in having a £30m striker who is only able to play against the likes of Wigan at home? For me that is a waste of everyone's time and money.

So yeah, either the system has to change (i.e. midfield gets sorted and new commitment to 442) or he goes. Those seem like the only rational options to me.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
Im not sure how to come back on this. I mean, Berbs is the player he is. It was Fergie's responsibility to pick a player that fit with the system. What is the point in buying a player and then trying to make him fundamentally different to fit a system?

This is why I am prepared to accept maybe it isnt going to work out with Berbs (though if SAF is up for persevering with him I would be very happy) but I dont think the player is to blame. The manager has to take responsibility for it, one of the transfers that didnt work out.

But I do agree with you in that Rooney is a better player in his position, so the team should be designed to get he most out of him.
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I still struggle to fathom the main purpose of signing Berbatov. I suppose he offered something different to what we already had and I reckon he was signed with Ronaldo leaving in mind so we would need another matchwinner in the team. He's failed to deliver on the matchwinner front in my view.

Ferguson obviously rated him highly and he tends to get tunnel-vision when it comes to certain players. Berbatov turned us down two years before we actually signed him and I'm sure Ferguson made sure he was top of the list. I reckon the same thing happened with Hargreaves, when Bayern rejected our offers, Ferguson then went and spent over the top amount on him the following season. Neither player has really convinced.

SAF doesn't like to be proven wrong and he rarely is. Berbatov will get another chance next year, but if his role in the side doesn't change. I expect him to be gone next summer.
 
Simon Adebesi said:
I think maybe he should. And I think maybe he will.

I cant see Fergie keeping him unless something is going to change. We want to play one up front, he doesnt like Berbs up front on his own. What is the point in having a £30m striker who is only able to play against the likes of Wigan at home? For me that is a waste of everyone's time and money.

So yeah, either the system has to change (i.e. midfield gets sorted and new commitment to 442) or he goes. Those seem like the only rational options to me.
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That's what I think.

Although SAF may think the money is spent (and for all we know, there's not much more where it came from) and Berbatov isn't throwing his toys out the pram so he might be worth hanging onto as a very competent flat track bully. Our goals haul this season is really impressive and Berbatov played a big part in it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Correct.

Which is my point.

The deficiencies in central midfield are the reason why we play 451 in all our big games. Going 442 against the best sides in Europe with our current midfielders would be suicide.

(I'm fairly sure that point's been made before)
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I agree.

But when you cant play your 451 properly becasue theres only one man that can play the pivitol forward role, then the house of cards comes falling down.

Single point of failure.
 
Commadus said:
How many times must this same old tired excuse be used?

Do Barca have a weak midfield? Is that why they play three? Do Arsenal have a weak midfield is that why they play three?
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What's your point?

Is it a weakness in their striking options that means they don't play with two strikers?

Or does that only apply to United?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Correct.

Which is my point.

The deficiencies in central midfield are the reason why we play 451 in all our big games. Going 442 against the best sides in Europe with our current midfielders would be suicide.

(I'm fairly sure that point's been made before)
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Circular Berbadebate Point #23831

- With a better striker up front alongside Rooney, our midfielders would also look much better because they'd have more options ahead of them and more space to play in, so playing 442 in Europe would not be suicidal

Look, I think this is bollocks. This is a thread about Berbatov, and he hasn't performed to the standard that he really ought to have. It's not anybody else fault, it's his
 
gaffs said:
I agree.

But when you cant play your 451 becasue theres only one man that can play the pivitol forward role, then the house of cards comes falling down.
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Yup. Which is where we need a player who is a specialist striker but willing to sit on the bench all season, on the off chance Rooney gets injured (how many games have we needed Berbatov to play up top on his own? Three?).

Alternatively, we muddle through with Berbatov very occasionally playing a position that he's not particularly good at, or hope Welbeck or Macheda kick on and give us some more options.
 
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