Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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'Proper midfield' bloody eck, ever since the Chelsea game. Is our midfield not better than that of Spurs, maybe it's down to Berba underperforming?

Pick our two best central midfielders right now, and compare those two against the best pairs from the other top teams. On this seasons form, ours dont compare very favourably. Fletcher has to be in there, but who else? Scholes? Carrick? Giggs? Anderson? All of who, for whatever reason, have been great on their day but as a whole inconsistent this season.

I think it's a generally held belief that Scholes and Anderson are at present a little worrying to see start in a two man midfield these days, Carrick's lack of form has been strongly noticed, and Giggs is fairly up and down too. Hence the need for us to use more than two in midfield in a large number of our games, meaning playing a system that Berbatov doesn't really work so well in.
 
I am a big fan of his skills and he is an important squad player no doubt but at the end of the day how many times has Berbs scored important goals in big games against top teams in 2 years? I can't remember any, not one!! That what separates a world class player such as Robben, Tevez, Drogba from a top class player such as Ashley Young or Tim Cahill and Berbs fits into the top class player category unfortunately!

He's barely played in the big games.

But I can see why...
 
in regards to running- i don't really get your point, the truth is quite the opposite- the slower you run the more distance you are able to cover. just check out the pace of marathon runs ;)
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Pick our two best central midfielders right now, and compare those two against the best pairs from the other top teams. On this seasons form, ours dont compare very favourably. Fletcher has to be in there, but who else? Scholes? Carrick? Giggs? Anderson? All of who, for whatever reason, have been great on their day but as a whole inconsistent this season.

I think it's a generally held belief that Scholes and Anderson are at present a little worrying to see start in a two man midfield these days, Carrick's lack of form has been strongly noticed, and Giggs is fairly up and down too. Hence the need for us to use more than two in midfield in a large number of our games, meaning playing a system that Berbatov doesn't really work so well in.

Giggs was one of the best midfielders in the league last season and Fletcher was very good too. It didnt make Berbatov better. What he really needs is a player bursting midfield beyond him and smashing the ball into the net every few games to help take the scoring burden off him and make up for the fact he likes to play deep. But few teams have that certain special player to do that job.

Berbatov has needed to adapt to the fact we dont have that. Well its not like he's come out and said thats what we need, but some of his most vocal excusionists on here have made out as if he should be able to expect to have a midfielder doing that in the side next to him. It might suit him, but it cant be expected. Its not the norm. The norm is a striker plays like a striker and he's the one getting forward and scoring goals. And there are times when we need that from Berbatov. Nothing else. Or, anything else is extra as long as he does that bit.
 
I am a big fan of his skills and he is an important squad player no doubt but at the end of the day how many times has Berbs scored important goals in big games against top teams in 2 years? I can't remember any, not one!! That what separates a world class player such as Robben, Tevez, Drogba from a top class player such as Ashley Young or Tim Cahill and Berbs fits into the top class player category unfortunately!

This is a start...

He's barely played in the big games.

But I can see why...


And the reason why, is because if he plays in these big games, he's either in a 4-4-2 and our midfield gets overrun (see Liverpool away, our whole attack looked poo because our midfield couldn't hack it), or he's played in a 4-5-1 where no one gives him any support (see Chelsea home).
 
Giggs was one of the best midfielders in the league last season and Fletcher was very good too. It didnt make Berbatov better. What he really needs is a player bursting midfield beyond him and smashing the ball into the net every few games to help take the scoring burden off him and make up for the fact he likes to play deep. But few teams have that certain special player to do that job.

Last season we were still set up to suit Ronaldo, Rooney's form suffered as a consequence to that too. We also saw Berbatov play extremely deep last season, and Ferguson afterwards as much as admitted that he was told to play there, and it probably wasn't the right place for him.

Agree that Berbatov would benefit from a midfielder who's a real attacking danger, but I don't think it's true to say not all teams have that. Chelsea - Lampard. Liverpool - Gerrard. Arsenal - Fabregas. Even down the table you have players that do that job at Everton, Villa, Spurs - even if they don't score so many, they're players the defence need to pay very close attention to when they join the attack. United had Scholes, but we can't play him so far forward anymore. Players like Carrick and Fletcher will always contribute, but be honest, it's not really one of the strongest parts of their game.


Berbatov has needed to adapt to the fact we dont have that. Well its not like he's come out and said thats what we need, but some of his most vocal excusionists on here have made out as if he should be able to expect to have a midfielder doing that in the side next to him. It might suit him, but it cant be expected. Its not the norm. The norm is a striker plays like a striker and he's the one getting forward and scoring goals. And there are times when we need that from Berbatov. Nothing else. Or, anything else is extra as long as he does that bit.

I admit I'd hoped for more from Berbatov too, at that time we were really crying out for a striker that could provide us with regular goals at all levels. Most of us thought, and really wanted, Berbatov to be it. Unfortunately it turns out that that's not what he is at all, but that doesn't mean he's of no use to us. I see very clearly the variety he can give us. And even if this quality is only ever effective against lower table opposition (and I would suggest that it can probably become more useful across the table with the right players behind him), then I would point out that our main competitors have dropped far more points at lower placed teams this season than we have, and these points are worth just as much at the end of the day.
 
I am a big fan of his skills and he is an important squad player no doubt but at the end of the day how many times has Berbs scored important goals in big games against top teams in 2 years? I can't remember any, not one!! That what separates a world class player such as Robben, Tevez, Drogba from a top class player such as Ashley Young or Tim Cahill and Berbs fits into the top class player category unfortunately!


Sorry, but Tim Cahill scores important goals all the fecking time...


I really really really like Berbatov as a person and I think being sold would almost destroy him, but he's just not performing and the player that he's holding out of the team 'Owen', would do much better things with the time that Berba gets.

The sad thing is however that when played together, they're an amazing partnership....
 
More excuses

Berba is only effective when he has attacking midfielders and a superb forward in front of him.

He needs everything in place before he can perform - thats assuming he does.

The excuses continue - no pre season, played too deep, midfield not good enough etc..

Strange how other players have performed in the meantime.
Who was playing ahead of him then when he scored two against Bolton?
 
More excuses

Berba is only effective when he has attacking midfielders and a superb forward in front of him.


He needs everything in place before he can perform - thats assuming he does.

The excuses continue - no pre season, played too deep, midfield not good enough etc..

Strange how other players have performed in the meantime.


It's hardly a strange requirement for a playmaking forward to need other dangerous attacking players around him, is it?

Does it really make more sense that a player who's done well at every other team he's played, at all levels he's played at, who with Spurs scored against teams from all levels of the premier league, comes to United and is suddenly not good enough to score against these teams?

Or maybe, just maybe, for whatever reason, we may not have used him as well as these other teams have? Especially since it's plain to see from what's happened on the football pitch that we very often haven't, for various reasons, been able to use him in ways that make best use of his qualities.
 
Valencia
Fletcher
Evra
VDS
etc...

Or are you saying we are a one man team that only Rooney has performed.

Take your blinkers off - see Berba for what he is - a decent player nothing exceptional decent squad player nothing more. Definitely not a starter in big games.
Yeah Evra has been quiet crap for some while now as well. I'm really hoping for Lennon to not be fit when we face Spuds, otherwise he'll tear us a new one. See? Everyone has a bad spell. And Berbatov has been in great form recently anyway, I don't know what people's problems with him are?

I'm not for one second suggesting he is the second coming, but just that he's not as bad as people are making him out to be. How can he perform against big teams when he isn't even fecking played? :confused:

Or maybe, just maybe, for whatever reason, we may not have used him as well as these other teams have?
It's true, SAF has himself admitted to it more than once.
 
Who was playing ahead of him then when he scored two against Bolton?

I think he was taking the piss out of the excuses.

I'm amazed how many people feel inclined to back the guy to the hilt. He's clearly a very talented footballer but the fact that we still debate him in here after two seasons coupled with the fact that SAF shows hardly any faith in him surely proves that something just doesn't "fit".
 
No because the level at United was higher than Berba has played at -at Tottenham what were they really fighting for other than a cup run?

Berba is not good enough for us to build our side around him - if he was then SAF would have tried it but he has realised Berba just is not as good as some make out.

Also Berba is not very adaptable he said it himself he wont change his style of play so either we accomodate him which is not going to happen or he just plays against the lesser sides which has happened.

I just dont see where so many see this great player in Berba - hes a decent player nothing more.


We don't have to build our side around him, he can fit perfectly well into a side built around Rooney, as long as we have the other players to fill out the team - namely, as I've stated before, in midfield. Berbatov was never bought with the intention of us building the team around him, that was always going to be Rooney once Ronaldo left.
 
he can fit perfectly well into a side built around Rooney .

can he though? I think these two seasons have proved that he probably can't?

But who knows, Nani and Fletch have both risen from the ashes so maybe you Berbatov fans will get a chance to say "I told you so" to us all at some point. I for one really hope so.
 
We don't have to build our side around him, he can fit perfectly well into a side built around Rooney, as long as we have the other players to fill out the team - namely, as I've stated before, in midfield. Berbatov was never bought with the intention of us building the team around him, that was always going to be Rooney once Ronaldo left.

Berbatov does need a team built around him. There are some things he should do, which he'll never do. At Spurs or a team that is built around him, it doesnt matter. He's the star, if somethings not being done then other players need to do it for him. And thats good enough for Spurs or a team thats built around him. The problem is that he isnt a 25 year old. He'll be 30 next season. Which completely rules out building a side around him and looking to get the players in which make up for what he lacks. Thats the only shame about Berbatov's situation, that he doesnt have the time to continue developing and becoming the player he really needs to be to make it work. But we knew he didnt have the time for a longer process when we signed him and he knew the pressures of playing United when we signed for us.
 
can he though? I think these two seasons have proved that he probably can't?

But who knows, Nani and Fletch have both risen from the ashes so maybe you Berbatov fans will get a chance to say "I told you so" to us all at some point. I for one really hope so.

One season where Ronaldo was the clear focal point of the team, to the detriment of other attacking players such as Rooney and Berbatov, and Ferguson also admitted he played him to deep. And another season where after being shown up against Liverpool, we've had to play a 4-5-1 in any game against a team with a half decent midfield. I don't think those two season are great ones to judge a player, to be fair.


Again back to the same point creating a straw man that our problems in other areas namely in midfield are to blame for Berba less than stellar performances.

I think you have admirably supported Berba and now to save face will continue down this track no matter how delusional it becomes. Our midfield is still better than any Berba played with whilst at Tottenham or Bayer.

Actually, I've only dipped in and out of the Berba debate, and no one really knows me here so I don't feel I have to keep up any front. I've just got into discussing it again on here recently because I've got some important things I need to procrastinate from doing :lol:

Seriously though - can you admit that we have had issues with our midfield personnel this season, and that those issues have resulted in us having to play an extra man in the middle against any half decent opposition, lest our strikers see very little of the ball? And that the second striker position is usually the one that's going to get the axe in this setup? And that this final remaining striker role needs a player with the right attributes to outfox two centre backs to get in scoring positions with his pace, strength and movement, none of which are main strengths of Berbatov? Then yes, midfield issues will indeed have affected Berbatov's ability to perform.
 
Berbatov does need a team built around him. There are some things he should do, which he'll never do. At Spurs or a team that is built around him, it doesnt matter. He's the star, if somethings not being done then other players need to do it for him. And thats good enough for Spurs or a team thats built around him. The problem is that he isnt a 25 year old. He'll be 30 next season. Which completely rules out building a side around him and looking to get the players in which make up for what he lacks. Thats the only shame about Berbatov's situation, that he doesnt have the time to continue developing and becoming the player he really needs to be to make it work. But we knew he didnt have the time for a longer process when we signed him and he knew the pressures of playing United when we signed for us.


But in reality, what does "building a team around" someone mean? It just means choosing players that will compliment that particular players qualities. Rooney's obviously our spearhead, and we've got players like Valencia, Nani and Berbatov to provide for him. The fact that Rooney works so hard means we can probably skimp on a little work rate elsewhere anyway if needs be, and even so, some people are starting to realise that Berbatov is chasing stuff down these days a lot more than he used to.

Most players, however, can't split a defence with a pass as well as Berbatov can. Or use a cheeky little flick to put a runner through on goal, as we've seen on a number of occasions (see why I want runners from midfield to help make the most of him?). In tight spaces, if we have enough movement, he's one of the very few players who can provide that little bit of magic that especially Scholes, and often Giggs, will not be able to provide us with much longer. Good option to have, don't you think?
 
Dude what blows the theory out of the water that we need to play an extra man in midfield because we lack players there is the team with the best midfield in the world - Barca play with a 3 man midfield or is that because they are weak and lack the players to play with a 2 man midfield?

Chelsea play with a 3 man diamond and Pool play with 2 holding midfielders and Gerrard coming from deep.

So in all cases a 3 man midfield is required not because we lack the players.

United still revert back to a 2 man midfield in the easier games they play, which is a difference. The other teams you mentioned set up similarly regardless of who they're playing. Look at our league games this year;

Started with 4-5-1:
Chelsea H - necessary
Bolton A - Rest Rooney before Munich tie, no Owen or Macheda available
Liverpool H - necessary
Wolves A - Rest Rooney before Milan tie, no Owen or Macheda available
Villa A - necessary
Arsenal A - necessary
Birmingham A - a bit of an odd one, Berbatov wasn't available, and Ferguson didn't like to use Rooney and Owen together? Even Diouf came on ahead of Owen. Didn't pay off anyway, 3 shots on target all game.

Started with 4-4-2:
Fulham H
West Ham H
Everton A - lost that 3-1, and we were even up against an Everton midfield 3. Beat them comfortably 3-0 with a 4-4-2 at home though, probably thought it would be enough to get by
Portsmouth H
Hull H
Burnley H


I would guess we'd have played 4-4-2 against Wolves, Bolton and possibly even Birmingham if we'd had the right players available for it, and that for the most part shows that we'll still play 4-4-2 when at all possible. We've even needed to stick three in midfield against a two man Bayern midfield at home!

You could argue that these remaining 4-4-2 games are some of the last we'll see, and you could be right, and in that case I don't think Berbatov will be useful enough for us to keep. But I really can't see us setting up in a 4-5-1 against lower table teams who are likely to combat us by packing everyone into their defence, and these are the kinds of games where Berbatov can give us an extra dimension. Like I said earlier in the thread, these are the games where Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal have dropped points time and again, and this season we've been far more efficient in them.


Berba as you mention is not a flexible or adaptable player its 4-4-2 with him or the highway but the game at the highest level has adapted so much that 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 is the future. Berba is the past - no top side will ever buy him and we cant play him in big games.

Berba is a relic of the old formations of a link man in a 4-4-2 - this has been shown at the highest level to be easy to combat.

So don't use it at the highest level! Use it at the lower levels where we'll easily win the midfield battle, but may have a bigger problem breaking through a crowded defence!
 
After watching Berba for 2 seasons I don't think his creative play is as good as you make out. I haven't seen many of these defence splitting passes - has he made a pass like Fletcher did for Rooney v Tottenham or his pass for Valencia against Bayern? Most of his passes have been simple passes. He has cut down on his flicks as most dont work.

As an option to have - perhaps. But if thats all his worth to the team then perhaps he would be better plying his trade elsewhere.


First the argument is that he doesn't score enough against the top sides, which I've given reasons for that no one seems to have had major problems with. Now he supposedly isn't doing much of anything at all? Then where have his goals and assists this season come from?

I've seen the stats posted before about how many of Berbatov's goals have been opening goals or ones necessary to win us points, and it was surprising to many detractors. He's only had 4 assists this season, and you can probably guess at the reasons I'll give for that being a bit on the low side, but his assist stats from last season show that it's something that he is pretty good at.
 
Why create a straw man. I said I don't think he is as creative as many make out -I did not say he lacked creativity. Owen has 9 goals I think and no one would call him creative so you dont have to be creative to score goals so your point is a bit lost on me.

Again why are you mixing issues - scoring goals and being creative are not mutually exclusive as you make out.

I hold my hands up, I am mixing issues a little bit there, it's just harder to get stats on what goals he's assisted as opposed to those he's scored. I just wanted to display that he is effective for us in those games. He's been in the top 5 assisters in the premier league each season, which some people might say is pretty meaningless, but he always seems to be joined by 9 other players in the top 10 who most will say had very good seasons. So I think that shows that he can create as well as most on a consistent basis.


I just don't see Berba as that great a player you make him out to be - as I have maintained he is a decent player but to have him as a squad player as an option is an expensive option where the question then needs to be asked for his contribution will only be against lesser sides then how good an investment has he been.

We are a business and so the questions need to be asked we have spent £30m and £10m so far on wages has this been a worthwhile investment for 26 goals in 81 appearances?

I would say no way and in a little over 1.5 years Berba can walk away as a free agent.

When his goals alone have been instrumental in winning us at least 10 points this season in games where we've had difficulty breaking down the opposition, i.e. exactly the kind of games that the other big teams have tended to trip up in, then yeah, I believe he's worth us having and keeping. Whether he was worth £30m is another matter, but that was between Levy and Ferguson, and it's spilt milk now.
 
But in reality, what does "building a team around" someone mean? It just means choosing players that will compliment that particular players qualities. Rooney's obviously our spearhead, and we've got players like Valencia, Nani and Berbatov to provide for him. The fact that Rooney works so hard means we can probably skimp on a little work rate elsewhere anyway if needs be, and even so, some people are starting to realise that Berbatov is chasing stuff down these days a lot more than he used to.

Most players, however, can't split a defence with a pass as well as Berbatov can. Or use a cheeky little flick to put a runner through on goal, as we've seen on a number of occasions (see why I want runners from midfield to help make the most of him?). In tight spaces, if we have enough movement, he's one of the very few players who can provide that little bit of magic that especially Scholes, and often Giggs, will not be able to provide us with much longer. Good option to have, don't you think?

Yes his linkup play can be good, but he can find Rooney who is now looking to get into the box more than ever. It doesnt have to be a midfielder. Thats just barely happened with those two linking up. It did happen one time that I can think of this season a few weeks ago, when Berbatov ran the ball down the wing and put it in for Rooney. They linked up for a single goal last season and off the top of my head, thats a single goal this season too. Which others am I forgetting? Valencia has also proven to be a threat coming into the box and finishing chances this season. Thats 2 players he can link up with. And Nani or whoever plays on the left comes inside as well, Nani did exactly that to get his goals against Bayern. And yes of course, there have been some occasions that Carrick and Fletcher have got up to support play. In fact thats how Fletcher scored his goals early in the season when he was our 3rd top goalscorer. And Scholes has scored his goals this season supporting play from central midfield. So it has happened, from all positions. It just hasnt always happened every single game, from central midfield, because we havent registered Frank Lampard.

I agree that Berbatov is working harder. As I mentioned in a previous post, against Aston Villa he showed great committment and hard work. Unfortunately Berbatov closing down is still done at a very slow pace, but at least you know he's trying.
 
I find it a bit too simplistic that its the strikers goals that win us the match - it marginalizes the contribution of the rest of the team but then also highlights that only strikers can win us matches.

Well many have said in respect to Berbatov that the goals are what he's to be judged by, and looked at in those terms, the guy has won us points. Like you say, it does somewhat marginalise the contributions of the rest of the team, but likewise when he doesn't perform so well you've got to take into account the rest of the team, as I was doing earlier when talking about the midfield.


As to us keeping him - put it this was say you could sell him for £15m and use that money to buy a young striker who could contribute at least as much as what Berba has done? The added benefit being we could keep him for longer than Berba.

If we could bring in a younger striker that added something a little different to our other strikers like Berbatov does, without having to spend much more than we'd get for him, then sure. If not, then I see no need.


The price tag was SAF not wanting to get beaten in a bidding war with Man City but you should never bid against a fool. It was a Pyrrhic victory SAF.us

I suspect in the end we will keep him only because we cannot sell him to recoup some of our losses. I think its a bit of a blaise attitude to say what we paid for him is history when you consider a 5% hike in ticket prices would probably bring in about £5m - and consider how much we overpaid for Berba and then you realise just how much was riding on Berba being a success.

It's not really blasé, it's just acceptance that the money's spent. If we could do some good business in selling him and buying a better replacement with the funds, I'm sure we would do that like we would with almost any player. But I really don't think he's doing badly enough to look for a way of replacing him, and can potentially do better given a few team tweaks that are needed anyway.
 
Yes his linkup play can be good, but he can find Rooney who is now looking to get into the box more than ever. It doesnt have to be a midfielder. Thats just barely happened with those two linking up. It did happen one time that I can think of this season a few weeks ago, when Berbatov ran the ball down the wing and put it in for Rooney. They linked up for a single goal last season and off the top of my head, thats a single goal this season too. Which others am I forgetting? Valencia has also proven to be a threat coming into the box and finishing chances this season. Thats 2 players he can link up with. And Nani or whoever plays on the left comes inside as well, Nani did exactly that to get his goals against Bayern. And yes of course, there have been some occasions that Carrick and Fletcher have got up to support play. In fact thats how Fletcher scored his goals early in the season when he was our 3rd top goalscorer. And Scholes has scored his goals this season supporting play from central midfield. So it has happened, from all positions. It just hasnt always happened every single game, from central midfield, because we havent registered Frank Lampard.

I agree that Berbatov is working harder. As I mentioned in a previous post, against Aston Villa he showed great committment and hard work. Unfortunately Berbatov closing down is still done at a very slow pace, but at least you know he's trying.

Nani and Valencia are exactly the kinds of players that Berbatov wants to be playing with, especially Nani, who'll always want to make runs into good scoring positions. But don't forget that until very recently Nani was blowing extremely hot and cold, and didn't even play long periods. You might be surprised how few games Berbatov has played with an on form Nani in a 4-4-2 this season. For what it's worth, I can remember occasions that Berb has played in players like Valencia and Fletcher making runs into the box, just hard to place the games. We may not have scored every time, but it did give us a very good scoring opportunity.

The lack of assists for Rooney is a little mystifying, even taking into account that they haven't played together in a fair number of the games Berbatov's played. I think we do tend to focus our play down the wings a lot though (lack of strong attacking threat from centre midfield?), which obviously makes our wing players more likely to be doing the assisting.

I agreed with someone else earlier, Carrick and Fletcher do come forward to support from midfield, but they're not what I'd consider very dangerous midfield players. They'll score several each in a season, but they're not likely to keep opposition defenders occupied in attacks throughout a game. Scholes was always a big threat for us on attacks when he played further forward, and he still has the ability to score goals for us up there, but it's pretty clear that he doesn't have the energy to run all the way up there and back all the time anymore.

We don't need a Frank Lampard, just someone who truly and consistently adds something to our attack.

21920151
 
Got to admit playing a crocked player ahead of a 100% fit one isn't good.
 
IMO Ferguson made a big big mistake with the Tevez-Berbatov affair. And now we are paying it.
 

Yes honestly. As in not good for Berbatov. Tells him his exact worth to us. Your a 30 million striker who has to stay on the bench for all our big games even when Rooney is crocked.
 
Hindsight is great thing isnt it?:lol:

Oh come on, did we need Berbatov when Fergie decided to buy it? No we didnt, we were well served with the players we had. Was a waste of money and we, or most of us, knew it at that time, and we still know it.
 
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