Why though? It's not like he's 29, the potential was always there
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
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Why though? It's not like he's 29, the potential was always there
Did you honestly think he would be bagging goals for fun with City? No one doubted his potential they doubted his form during the 2nd season. Much like Carrick's situation!
Paying for what? Tevez never led the line for us effectively either, and I don't see how all of a sudden the muppets would have you believe he'd have saved us on Wednesday.
This is such a silly argument, in his second season he was relegated to bench and carling cup player in order to accomodate Berba.
Whenever he has been a regular he has performed brilliantly. See his first season with us and his first season with the massives as proof.
It's like Rooney, he has all the attributes to be a world class striker, all he needs is the manager's faith and reassured of his importance. Build the team around him etc No I didn't expect him to score this many goals but I'm not too surprised either.
If Berba never came and after Ronaldo left, I have a feeling he and Rooney would have been banging them in every game, all game.
Great post.
All this nonsense about "hindsight" is silly too. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who thought we were making a mistake when we decided to splash 30m on Berba instead of nailing down Tevez as a Manchester United player.
Poor Man's Sharky makes an acceptable post. Well in lad.
Fergie's hardly going to come out and say "No I'd rather play a half-fit Wayne than put Dimitar on" now is he? His actions which are most important seemed to suggest he didn't really trust Berbatov to feature heavily in the Bayern game.
Who said Rooney was half-fit? 
He looked complete fit to me, and SAF doesn't come across as a retard who'll play his best player if he were not completely fit.
He looked complete fit to me, and SAF doesn't come across as a retard who'll play his best player if he were not completely fit.I cant say I rated Berbatov as highly as the fans who were standing around outside OT on transfer deadline day less than two years ago.
Which would make me a genius......but on the other hand I thought that Tevez (and his agent) were holding us to ransom and we had to let him go.
So not a genius after all.
SAF said exactly what I pointed out earlier but, people keep on hanging on to Fergie playing a half fit Rooney.
We needed to bring on a defender no matter what when Rooney was subbed - we would have had to make 2 substitutions if Berbatov was to be brought on or would have meant moving Fletcher to right back which would have fecked us over in midfield.
What's the more footballing reality - that we brought on a defender and removed the limping player or that it made more sense to bring on a striker for a striker when we'd lost a defender and were up 3-1?
I wonder, I wonder.
It isnt about who we brought on, it is about who we started with.
A lot of comments have been that not bringing on Berbatov when Rooney went off were a indicator in lack of faith in Berbatov.
Even in the press conference when it was asked - it was asked about the point when Rooney went off, not at the start of the game.
OK fair play.
I saw it as a slight on Berbs at the start. Less so for the substitution, for the point you made - though I thought a second substitution to bring on a striker did seem necessary.
I saw it as a slight on Berbs at the start. Less so for the substitution, for the point you made - though I thought a second substitution to bring on a striker did seem necessary.
Why in the world should the manager try to change Berba. He knows his strength, how to use it and when, and he does that whenever he thinks he needs it.
Things are less complicated, than people try to make of them.
We are lucky to have Berbatov in the squad. His place is exactly where it is and this season, for the first time, we have made use of him
Except we didnt sign Essien for a club record to take his place before Carrick's form dipped.
Tevez was always going to score more and play better than last season. Same with Berbatov. They both had a poor season, simple as that. And at 24/25 Tevez was always likely to add more goals to his game in the next few seasons. It didnt take long.
I sort of agree that starting Rooney could be a bit of a slight on Berbatov but, mainly it is a slight that he isn't the player to perform lead the line duties in such an important game and if you have a more or less fit Rooney, that is preferred.
The Rooney we saw at the start looked completely fit though ... do you recall the challenge in the center circle where he flung himself into a challenge on 2 Bayern players? He was not moving at all tentatively. Am sure that's what everyone saw - off course there was a risk of aggravation but, everything they must have seen prior was that he was 100% ready to start.
So for that I don't think it was that much of a slight on Berbatov.
It's not the first time we've rushed back a player from injury, if the player is seemingly fit and is our best in the position then we've gambled. Most recently Rio in the final, Carrick in the Rome final (had a problem with toe), Vida in the 2nd leg against Milan ... and lots of others.
Guess can look at it at a slight as the "backup" player in the position or that the manager feels the returning player gives us the best chance.
First of all, it is a saying. Second of all, he could have gone to Chelsea or City for more money, but joined us. And third, Berba is an exceptional player. Has a rare vision, first touch and technique. We are lucky to have such player
He's accepted playing in the 4-4-2 formations or whenever SAF has decided he needs him. Why can't you?
EDIT: You know, I have done this before with you in the newbies. And I am too busy to get into it now and again. I know how a conversation with you would go
I am out of here.
This whole Berbadebate is insanely fecking circular so I'm guessing the following point has been made a million times already but I'll make it one more time, for the hell of it.
Fergie may not fancy Berbatov as a lone striker against top opposition (although this conclusion seems to have been reached after one game, with loads of complicating factors) but he has been a valuable player this season as part of a 442. Now, it remains to be seen if Fergie wants to move away from that formation completely but we certainly don't have the midfielders to make it work against the very best opposition (as an aside, does anyone?
This means Berbatov MIGHT be moved on in the summer, to find a more like for like back-up for Rooney but can anyone name a striker who is good enough to play that role as well as Rooney yet happy to sit out all our big games? Tevez is a name that has been repeatedly mentioned but he would have thrown his toys out of the pram months ago if he had as few big games as Berbatov this season and he would have been no more likely to get the nod ahead of Rooney. So who would be willing to play that role?
If Berbatov is willing, I can see the current situation continuing next season with Welbeck or Macheda providing additional options for games when we need a loan striker with a bit more hussle than Berbatov provides. Meanwhile, he can continue to help us destroy the lesser teams we come up against and allow us to (hopefully) have another season scoring as many goals as we did this time round (on track to score more than we've managed in a decade or so)
Fergie may not fancy Berbatov as a lone striker against top opposition (although this conclusion seems to have been reached after one game, with loads of complicating factors) but he has been a valuable player this season as part of a 442. Now, it remains to be seen if Fergie wants to move away from that formation completely but we certainly don't have the midfielders to make it work against the very best opposition (as an aside, does anyone?
This means Berbatov MIGHT be moved on in the summer, to find a more like for like back-up for Rooney but can anyone name a striker who is good enough to play that role as well as Rooney yet happy to sit out all our big games? Tevez is a name that has been repeatedly mentioned but he would have thrown his toys out of the pram months ago if he had as few big games as Berbatov this season and he would have been no more likely to get the nod ahead of Rooney. So who would be willing to play that role?
If Berbatov is willing, I can see the current situation continuing next season with Welbeck or Macheda providing additional options for games when we need a loan striker with a bit more hussle than Berbatov provides. Meanwhile, he can continue to help us destroy the lesser teams we come up against and allow us to (hopefully) have another season scoring as many goals as we did this time round (on track to score more than we've managed in a decade or so)
Ive had enough circular conversations about this over the past few days to see that people will have made their minds up about this and wont be changing them.
For the record, I dont think he was "more or less fit". I was worried about it when the game started. After 20 minutes I thought feck, looks like I was wrong. Not long after that he started limping about, and shortly after that we completely collapsed. So by the end of the game I was back to my original assessment: he hadnt been fit, the gamble hadnt paid off and we were out.
The margins between success and failure are slim. Admittedly it looked inspired. But you dont judge things but the outcomes over a 20 minute period in football. You have to look at the course of the game. And I think Rooney going off did more damage to morale than not starting with him would have done, considering his being rushed back in was tantamount to saying "this is a really tough game, without our best player we are fecked." In those circumstances it isnt surprising that the team shat themselves when they saw he was injured again.
I can name lots of strikers good enough to play with Rooney, a lot better than Berbatov works with him
I'm sure if there's a more potent attacking pair we might find Ferguson moves away from that 4-5-1 a bit more. I don't think we've played that system so often this season purely because it's Ferguson's current favourite way of playing, I think he's had his hands tied somewhat because he's realised his most recent huge money signing isn't the player he was hoping for
I don't think Berbatov will be going anywhere in the summer by the way. I'm not convinced we're bringing anyone else in up front either with that Mexican signing
Been asked and not answered.
Just about 12 hours ago I laid out specifically to you how we still play 4-4-2 when we can get away with it, and suggested that we'd play it even more often if we had the players to do it. You didn't even try to argue the points or data I laid out, yet you're trotting out the same story now. It smacks of seeing what you want to see rather than seeing what's actually there.
Circular Berbadebate Point #15678
- Fergie's preference for 451 in big games has very little to do with our options up front and everything to do with our options in midfield.
Fanboi nonsense
bingo.
just to save people flicking back a page, this is what I posted in response to the 4-5-1 debate:
We have so many different types and such a variety of midfield players, I think that's just making excuses myself. There aint too many clubs out there that are spoilt for choice for would be first choice midfielders as we are
So which two of our wonderful and varied midfielders would you pick in a 4-4-2 for United? I can't think of two that have consistently done the business this year.
Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson backs Berbatov
BBC Sport - Football - Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson backs Berbatov
Sir Alex Ferguson insists he still has confidence in Dimitar Berbatov despite leaving the striker on the bench for most of the game against Bayern Munich.
United, who were down to 10 men after 50 minutes of the Champions league tie, started with Wayne Rooney, who was just back from an ankle injury, in attack.
Ferguson only brought Berbatov on with 10 minutes left but insisted "I still trust him, he's a good player".
"When we got the man sent off there was no need to put a striker on," he added.
"All we were trying to do was go over the line in terms of defending."
United, who eventually lost the tie on away goals after Bayern fought back to make it 4-4 on aggregate, saw Rafael sent off five minutes into the second half on Wednesday night.
Berbatov has begun 20 Premier League games, scoring 12 goals, but has been a substitute for each of United's games in the knockout stages of the Champions League.
The Bulgarian, a £30m signing from Tottenham in September 2008, started the 2-1 defeat by Chelsea last weekend, but it was his first start against either of the other top-three sides.
"There is absolutely no reason why we should doubt that he is a good player," said Ferguson.
"Dimitar has done well in a lot of games recently but we prefer to play with one striker."
BBC Sport - Football - Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson backs Berbatov
Sir Alex Ferguson insists he still has confidence in Dimitar Berbatov despite leaving the striker on the bench for most of the game against Bayern Munich.
United, who were down to 10 men after 50 minutes of the Champions league tie, started with Wayne Rooney, who was just back from an ankle injury, in attack.
Ferguson only brought Berbatov on with 10 minutes left but insisted "I still trust him, he's a good player".
"When we got the man sent off there was no need to put a striker on," he added.
"All we were trying to do was go over the line in terms of defending."
United, who eventually lost the tie on away goals after Bayern fought back to make it 4-4 on aggregate, saw Rafael sent off five minutes into the second half on Wednesday night.
Berbatov has begun 20 Premier League games, scoring 12 goals, but has been a substitute for each of United's games in the knockout stages of the Champions League.
The Bulgarian, a £30m signing from Tottenham in September 2008, started the 2-1 defeat by Chelsea last weekend, but it was his first start against either of the other top-three sides.
"There is absolutely no reason why we should doubt that he is a good player," said Ferguson.
"Dimitar has done well in a lot of games recently but we prefer to play with one striker."
Its Fletch + 1 at centre mid.
You'e got some nerve. After spending all season publically creaming yourself over a Barcelona player it's a bit rich to call a United fan who is bigging up one of our own players a "fanboi".
He was also factually correct in saying Berbatov could have joined City but turned them down. So the other word in that post is just as inaccurate and inappropriate as the term "fanboi".
Perhaps if he gave a midfield pairing the same faith as he's given the Rooney-Berbatov pairing to this point, some of them would have a better understanding together. We mix and match too much
Any issues in midfield have as much to do with the lack of movement and options up front, as the issues up front have to do with the lack of quality coming from midfield. Personally I think the only midfielder below par this season has been Carrick. But I think there are lots of pairings which would work absolutely fine - but they'd work even better if they had a much more potent attacking option ahead of them than Berbatov
Its the pivitol possition in the 451.
Aye that "+ 1" is the rub, isn't it?
No one was moaning about the midfield when they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Tevez & Rooney to pass to.
What if, wait for it, Berbatov is as much of problem as our midfield is?
I know nonsense
Carricks had a poor season, but i see no reason why he cant get it back.
Scholes can still do a good job (thought he was our best player against Chelsea) and we have Hargreaves coming back - maybe.
Personally, i dont rate Giggs in the middle in a 442.
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