Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

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Well if you didn't see it then why the sarcasm?

I don't really need to explain that to you do I?

When did Berbatov last put in the kind of performance he apparently put in against Fulham against a top quality side?

Ronaldo did it, Rooney does it, Giggsy does it. I haven't yet seen it from Berbatov.

He's not performed to expectation in my opinion, plain and simple.
 
I don't really need to explain that to you do I?

When did Berbatov last put in the kind of performance he apparently put in against Fulham against a top quality side?

Ronaldo did it, Rooney does it, Giggsy does it. I haven't yet seen it from Berbatov.

He's not performed to expectation in my opinion, plain and simple.

If you can't be bothered to watch our games it's gonna take you a while to change that opinion.
 
Didn't see the game - nice to see that he finally put in a decent performance. Against the mighty Fulham.

:rolleyes:

Some people will never appreciate what a talented player he is.

He's too easy a scapegoat for when things aren't going well and I reckon too many have adopted a negative stance for so long that they'll never admit they were wrong
 
Can't be bothered?

One game I missed.

Tit.

Ok, one game.

You still felt the need to comment on it though.

If you're gonna comment on a player's performance, you should probably stick to games you have watched. That way you might be able to discuss what actually happened on the pitch, as opposed to sharing your existing preconceptions.
 
Rooney's pass was more than pefect.Only Scholes can match that vision and abvility to weight it so well.

Your talking complete bollocks if you are suggesting that Park's contribution was more important. Even Park would say you're talking bollocks.

You're the one talking bollocks "Only Scholes can match that vision and abvility to weight it so well." :wenger:.
ffs the pass was great but it wasn't something only a couple of players could only pull off, plenty of footballers do those kinda passes every single week.
Rooney played a big part in the goal but not bigger than Park's contribution to the goal cause the goal was made by Park's pass and like I said what if Park decided not to cross, would Berbatov have scored ? Sometimes what Rooney does is taken out of its perspective because it's Rooney.
 
Ok, one game.

You still felt the need to comment on it though.

If you're gonna comment on a player's performance, you should probably stick to games you have watched. That way you might be able to discuss what actually happened on the pitch, as opposed to sharing your existing preconceptions.

I am commenting on his overall performance. This is not a thread about his performance against Fulham.
 
I am commenting on his overall performance. This is not a thread about his performance against Fulham.

Ok, fair enough.

Are you open to the possibility that his second season is an improvement on his first and that he might go on to become an important player for us? (some would say he already is)

Or is your mind completely made up already and nothing he does on the pitch can change it?

Because if your mind's made up then his performance against Fulham is irrelevant. If you're being open-minded you should try and watch the game.

Berbatov hasn't started any big games recently so can hardly be expected to be a star performer in those games. What he has done, though, is started to look the business in all the games he does start.
 
I don't really need to explain that to you do I?

When did Berbatov last put in the kind of performance he apparently put in against Fulham against a top quality side?

Ronaldo did it, Rooney does it, Giggsy does it. I haven't yet seen it from Berbatov.

He's not performed to expectation in my opinion, plain and simple.

Which expectation ? What did you expect him to do ?
 
:rolleyes:

Some people will never appreciate what a talented player he is.

He's too easy a scapegoat for when things aren't going well and I reckon too many have adopted a negative stance for so long that they'll never admit they were wrong

I know he has talent. I live in Germany and watched him play at Leverkusen during his early career.

He did well at Tottenham and Ferguson shelled out an awful lot for him. Most people I know here couldn't believe the price we paid for him.

He clearly is talented, but he's too inconsistent.

It's not really fair to compare him with Cantona, especially as Eric cost a million and Berbatov 30, but I think when Ferguson bough Berbatov he foresaw a player in a similar type of role. Berbatov doesn't put in consistently good performances against top teams though and tends to score when the game is won. Eric won games for us. You could argue that Rooney does that for us today and Ronaldo did last year and that therefore we don't require Berbatov to be that player for us.

He's not the player I think we'd hoped he'd be and everyone is forever defending him because, well I don't really know why to be honest. He's a United player and that blinds a lot of people to the reality, which is that he hasn't had the impact I think most people hoped he would have when we bought him.
 
Ok, fair enough.

Are you open to the possibility that his second season is an improvement on his first and that he might go on to become an important player for us? (some would say he already is)

Or is your mind completely made up already and nothing he does on the pitch can change it?

Because if your mind's made up then his performance against Fulham is irrelevant. If you're being open-minded you should try and watch the game.

Berbatov hasn't started any big games recently so can hardly be expected to be a star performer in those games. What he has done, though, is started to look the business in all the games he does start.

This is kind of my point - he doesn't start those games because Ferguson doesn't have the confidence in him, although I grant you that with Rooney in the form he is in, we don't actually need Berbatov.

Which begs the question, not that it's my money or anything, but do we really think investing 30m in a back up has turned out to be all Berbatov really is?
 
Ok, fair enough.

Are you open to the possibility that his second season is an improvement on his first and that he might go on to become an important player for us? (some would say he already is)

Or is your mind completely made up already and nothing he does on the pitch can change it?

Because if your mind's made up then his performance against Fulham is irrelevant. If you're being open-minded you should try and watch the game.

He could become an important player, yes, but I think nearing 30 his time is limited in achieving the heights he could achieve at the best club with the best supporting cast he will ever have.

I can't watch the game - I doubt it will be repeated here.

As for his 2nd season being an improvement - perhaps a modest one, yes, but no more.

I don't dislike Berbatov - I appreciate his contribution and agree he is a talented player, but I think when we shelled out 30m for him, it is not unreasonable to think that in the years following his arrival he has not had the impact we (I) had hoped he would have.
 
This is kind of my point - he doesn't start those games because Ferguson doesn't have the confidence in him, although I grant you that with Rooney in the form he is in, we don't actually need Berbatov.

Which begs the question, not that it's my money or anything, but do we really think investing 30m in a back up has turned out to be all Berbatov really is?

Except he's not a back up, is he? He starts every game in which we play with two up top.

As for the money, I think we over-paid for him. I think he'll turn out to be a an important player for us though. In fact, I think he already is.
 
In the big games we tend to play a fast counter attacking game, a style which Berbatov is not especially suited to. However you don't win titles by just winning the big games. Berbatov is vital against lesser opposition when we need to unlock a defence where a team plays 11 men behind the ball.
 
I mean the guy has done well in the last few matches he started.It's encouraging signs.As far I'm concerned he's doing what he's doing more or less of what I expected him to do.Specially this season

In the last few matches. What about the rest of the season? That's my point - he's inconsistent.

I expected him to win himself a place as a fixture in a 4-4-2 lineup, or a 4-5-1 where he might sit behind Rooney (I have always thought Rooney should be far up front and not doing the work of the midfield as well, not that I am complaining, but his goalscoring is what is greatest contribution should be). Berbatov came to United with a golden opportunity to be a Cantona type player and I just don't think he has shown enough in 2 seasons - somehow I sense a missing hunger in him. He could be so much more in my opinion.
 
In the last few matches. What about the rest of the season? That's my point - he's inconsistent.

I expected him to win himself a place as a fixture in a 4-4-2 lineup
, or a 4-5-1 where he might sit behind Rooney (I have always thought Rooney should be far up front and not doing the work of the midfield as well, not that I am complaining, but his goalscoring is what is greatest contribution should be). Berbatov came to United with a golden opportunity to be a Cantona type player and I just don't think he has shown enough in 2 seasons - somehow I sense a missing hunger in him. He could be so much more in my opinion.

:eek: Isn't he a regular starter in the 4-4-2 system we play.
Having him in a 4-5-1 would be useless, that formation would be a 4-4-2 in disguise because when we only set up with that tactic during specific matches.Not all the time.
In the 4-5-1, there are better players suited for the role than him.
 
In the big games we tend to play a fast counter attacking game, a style which Berbatov is not especially suited to. However you don't win titles by just winning the big games. Berbatov is vital against lesser opposition when we need to unlock a defence where a team plays 11 men behind the ball.

I'd agree with this actually. But even in the "smaller" games, he seems to have a tendency to score the 3rd or 4th goals - when the game is won.

I don't think he is a "clutch player", as the Yanks would say.
 
:eek: Isn't he a regular starter in the 4-4-2 system we play.
Having him in a 4-5-1 would be useless, that formation would be a 4-4-2 in disguise because when we only set up with that tactic during specific matches.Not all the time.

Nit pick all you like. It's the latter part of that post which is important and relevant to my opinion of him.

CONSISTENCY.

MISSED OPPORTUNITY.

focus on those two.
 
In the big games we tend to play a fast counter attacking game, a style which Berbatov is not especially suited to. However you don't win titles by just winning the big games. Berbatov is vital against lesser opposition when we need to unlock a defence where a team plays 11 men behind the ball.

Ain't that the truth. We might lose the title to Arsenal this season, because of our poor results against the teams from outside the big four. Our results against the big four have been plenty good enough to win the league. It's dropped points against mid to lower table teams that have hurt us.

So far in the league this season - when you look at games against teams from outside the top four - we've dropped points against Burnley, Everton, Sunderland, Fulham, Brum, Everton and Villa (twice)

Berbatov only started two out of those eight games. These two games were the draw against Sunderland (where he got us back into it with a fantastic goal, on a day when our whole team was playing shite) and the game against Everton, where he scored our only goal.

And to think some people still fail to see what he's brought to our team this season...
 
And to think some people still fail to see what he's brought to our team this season...

Take it you include me among that group. To reiterate, I think he contributes, but hasn't developed into the player he could have done following his move. I also acknowledge that if we ignore his price tag, he certainly plays his role for us.
 
I'd agree with this actually. But even in the "smaller" games, he seems to have a tendency to score the 3rd or 4th goals - when the game is won.

I don't think he is a "clutch player", as the Yanks would say.

That's simply not true.

He's got the "game-changing" goal a number of times this season (to use another Yank turn of phrase)
 
Nit pick all you like. It's the latter part of that post which is important and relevant to my opinion of him.

CONSISTENCY.

MISSED OPPORTUNITY.

focus on those two.

:confused:
This is what you say to someone who genuinely tries to understand your point.That's very clever
 
Take it you include me among that group. To reiterate, I think he contributes, but hasn't developed into the player he could have done following his move. I also acknowledge that if we ignore his price tag, he certainly plays his role for us.

Dunno. I don't think I've discussed this with you at any length before.

I don't think you're quite that close-minded, as you seem willing to acknowledge his positive overall contribution.

There are some people on here who are unable/unwilling to see anything positive in his contribution, no matter how small.
 
This is kind of my point - he doesn't start those games because Ferguson doesn't have the confidence in him, although I grant you that with Rooney in the form he is in, we don't actually need Berbatov.

Which begs the question, not that it's my money or anything, but do we really think investing 30m in a back up has turned out to be all Berbatov really is?

Just forget about the money, forget £30m ever changed hands. This debate always comes back to the same thing - the fee. We wanted him for less but City were prepared to go to £35m (maybe more), so our hand was forced if Spurs were going to entertain our offer.

The fee is nothing to do with Berbatov, it was simple economics - the player was in demand by at least two cash-wealthy clubs, which boosted his value abnormally. The money's paid, forget about it. Just judge the player the same way you would if he'd come through the youth system and cost us nothing, because the fee's not his fault.

I think once you do that you'd recognise him as a good player in his own right. Scores goals whilst not being prolific (Bergkamp and Cantona weren't prolific either), links play very well, lays on assists, and contrary to popular belief, has been working very hard for the team tracking back and pressing opposition players.

All in all, a very decent option to have in the squad with alot of quality in his play. OK, so we've found a system that works in big games with Rooney as a lone forward, but if you're going to cane Berbatov for not matching up the world's best player on form, then you're just being unneccessarily harsh for the sake of it.
 
If he keeps this level up we'll be hearing Oo Ah Dimitar by the end of the season.

Languid Dimitar, cuts like a scimitar,
Any chance you could spare us a ciggie? Ta.
Not worth thirty mil, but pretty fecking brill,
Mesmeric... next Eric...
Berbatov.
 
Just forget about the money, forget £30m ever changed hands. This debate always comes back to the same thing - the fee. We wanted him for less but City were prepared to go to £35m (maybe more), so our hand was forced if Spurs were going to entertain our offer.

The fee is nothing to do with Berbatov, it was simple economics - the player was in demand by at least two cash-wealthy clubs, which boosted his value abnormally. The money's paid, forget about it. Just judge the player the same way you would if he'd come through the youth system and cost us nothing, because the fee's not his fault.

I think once you do that you'd recognise him as a good player in his own right. Scores goals whilst not being prolific (Bergkamp and Cantona weren't prolific either), links play very well, lays on assists, and contrary to popular belief, has been working very hard for the team tracking back and pressing opposition players.

All in all, a very decent option to have in the squad with alot of quality in his play. OK, so we've found a system that works in big games with Rooney as a lone forward, but if you're going to cane Berbatov for not matching up the world's best player on form, then you're just being unneccessarily harsh for the sake of it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, and like I said, perhaps I should ignore the fee. I can't though. Even if City hadn't bid, he was going to go for 27m odd. But as I said before it's his inconsistency that bugs me most, plus the fact that I don't see a fighter in him. He's somehow lacking a quality that one usually associates with United players - grit.
 
Dunno. I don't think I've discussed this with you at any length before.

I don't think you're quite that close-minded, as you seem willing to acknowledge his positive overall contribution.

There are some people on here who are unable/unwilling to see anything positive in his contribution, no matter how small.

I thought he'd have done much better at Old Trafford. For all his talent I don't think he's got the personality to showcase his full potential at United.
 
I thought he'd have done much better at Old Trafford. For all his talent I don't think he's got the personality to showcase his full potential at United.

As often as I disagree with your waffle, on this occasion, you have hit the nail on the head in my book.
 
I thought he'd have done much better at Old Trafford. For all his talent I don't think he's got the personality to showcase his full potential at United.

Me too.

Of course, I'm starting to think that this may have been down to my own unrealistic expectations as much as anything else. That and the exorbitant price tag.

Putting the cost and expectations to one side, he's becoming a really valuable member of the team IMO. You can see how important he's become when you see how rarely we drop points with him in the team (as per my post above)
 
I think he's developing the grit and desire. You can see how much he wants it now.

Unfortunately, meanwhile he's lost what he once had, the confidence and swagger.


You need both to be a proper United player.

Aye, I think that's true.

The swagger tends to resurface every now and then (e.g. the outrageous pass to Park shortly after his assist yesterday) but he's definitely had major issues with confidence.

It's odd, there were so many comparisons made with Cantona and there seemed to be a real similarity in the way they play but the one thing Berbatov lacks most of all was Cantona's arrogance and unswerving self-belief.

A bit more love from the stands will help, mind you. They adored him at Spurs and he played like he knew it. It was pleasing to hear them singing his name yesterday.
 
I agree with a lot of what you say, and like I said, perhaps I should ignore the fee. I can't though. Even if City hadn't bid, he was going to go for 27m odd. But as I said before it's his inconsistency that bugs me most, plus the fact that I don't see a fighter in him. He's somehow lacking a quality that one usually associates with United players - grit.

I can see your point of view. The way I see it, when he starts he almost always has a positive contribution to the game one way or the other. I've been less impressed when he's come on as a sub in games, but then some players struggle to get to the speed of the game coming on as a sub - if he can't do this it's a valid criticism. On the flip-side, I've seen him come on and change games, but it's one aspect he should be looking to change.

As for being a fighter, well I don't think we'll ever see that. We're spoiled with Rooney really. Everyone else pales in comparison. And though Berbatov isn't an all-action dynamo, I wouldn't say he is a weak or cowardly player. How many times does he have the ball, and gets hacked and kicked to pieces, but manages to maintain his composure and get a ball off to another player? And there's been a noticeable improvement in his work-rate and tracking back. He's not a fighter but he's pretty tough IMO.
 
Me too.

Of course, I'm starting to think that this may have been down to my own unrealistic expectations as much as anything else. That and the exorbitant price tag.

Putting the cost and expectations to one side, he's becoming a really valuable member of the team IMO. You can see how important he's become when you see how rarely we drop points with him in the team (as per my post above)

We'll considering we've not exactly got plethora of talented forwards, it's not surprising. And I doubt even Fergie would've splashed the cash knowing how he'd turn out - to be fair, not everyone is cut out to succeed at United. It's a shame really, I think he's immensely talented and if he had an ounce of Cantona's confidence he'd have been a huge hit. But he's been er. . . a bit Nani like.
 
I think he's developing the grit and desire. You can see how much he wants it now.

Unfortunately, meanwhile he's lost what he once had, the confidence and swagger.

You need both to be a proper United player.

Really? To be a proper Utd player?

So Park can't be considered a proper Utd player because he doesn't swagger about.

Maybe we should buy back Keiran Richardson.

I think we're missing the whole picture here. I do believe that Berbatov has been playing with an injury for a while which would explain the reticence to use him while Rooney has been doing the business. But now with limited options up front and games running out it's an ideal time for him to show his undoubted class
 
It's odd, there were so many comparisons made with Cantona and there seemed to be a real similarity in the way they play but the one thing Berbatov lacks most of all was Cantona's arrogance and unswerving self-belief.

A bit more love from the stands will help, mind you. They adored him at Spurs and he played like he knew it. It was pleasing to hear them singing his name yesterday.

Yeah, that would make a big difference.

In terms of pure touch, he's the best player I've ever seen live and that includes Cantona.
 
We'll considering we've not exactly got plethora of talented forwards, it's not surprising. And I doubt even Fergie would've splashed the cash knowing how he'd turn out - to be fair, not everyone is cut out to succeed at United. It's a shame really, I think he's immensely talented and if he had an ounce of Cantona's confidence he'd have been a huge hit. But he's been er. . . a bit Nani like.

How many people have and have had Cantona's confidence, prescence in the League let alone at Utd?

It's hardly Berbatov's fault he's been fatuously compared to and expected to be a Cantona replacement.
 
We'll considering we've not exactly got plethora of talented forwards, it's not surprising. And I doubt even Fergie would've splashed the cash knowing how he'd turn out - to be fair, not everyone is cut out to succeed at United. It's a shame really, I think he's immensely talented and if he had an ounce of Cantona's confidence he'd have been a huge hit. But he's been er. . . a bit Nani like.

You don't think he's going to succeed at United?

I think you're being hasty. There's lots of good players who've had a ropey season or two at their new club and gone on to do very well.

If Berbatov can build on the improvement he's shown this season over the next 2 or 3 years I think he'll end up being looked back upon as another good signing by Fergie.

Time will tell.
 
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