Ok.
Then it's not really a discussion I'm arsed about because I think it's silly. And irrelevant.
Then it's not really a discussion I'm arsed about because I think it's silly. And irrelevant.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
- Thread starter Rood
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I just had a ham sandwich.
What do you make of Veron's time at United?
In his final season he played some amazing passes which led to winning goals.
Had it not been for the fact we paid a shitload for him, that would surely have been enough to see him stay at the club. But another club wanted to buy him for a lot less than what we paid and we took the money because the club obviously felt he wasnt performing to the level that they expected having paid so much for him. It wasnt okay for that player to be just a sub or an option in champions league matches.
Thats just what happens when you pay huge fees for players. Big expectations not just from the fans, but from the club as well. And the very same thing may happen with Berbatov if he doesnt improve a lot and someone puts in a bid this summer.
Pretty similar, didn't really live up to expectations but still wanted to keep him. Probably wouldn't have sold him if a team weren't willing to pay over the top for him.
Can see the same thing happening with Berbatov.
Given that Berbatov is older, paying "over the top" for him now wont take much. So I see a big possibility of it happening too.
When they are older players who should be in the prime of their careers, but arent doing enough to demand a starting place, I dont mind so much if they are let go as there's only so long they can continue playing even if they come good somewhere else. And usually we wont be selling them to domestic rivals.
However, if its someone who is still in their earlier twenties it concerns me a lot more as they are more likely to end up at another top club and punishing us for letting them go. Tevez came close to doing that and may do an even better job of it in years to come. Had Nani not put in his recent performances and left in the summer, he might have come back to bite us in the ass too.
It was a good ham sandwich. Needed mustard though.
Prefer a nice bacon sandwich myself. Or even a bacon toastie.
His price tags works against him. Was never a 30 million pound striker. Even more then 20 million was a gamble and I bet although SAF will never admit it he wishes he hadn't been hustled into paying that sort of fee. Good player who can contribute a lot to our game, but that price tag around his neck will always carry a burden of expectation I don't think he will ever fullfill.
Me too, I only had ham though.
Disagree. People harp on how SAF paid x amount for Irwin, Schmeichel, Cantona, Evra, Vidic, etc., compared to how they performed well above the fees paid while crucifying Berbatov and Veron. It comes with the territory for a big money signing.
How? Surely you don't think Rooney on his current form would be shunted wide for Berbatov? Yet we all know 4-3-3 is literally the best way for us to win big games with our current midfield.
People who harp on about money spent on players when discussing said players, in either way, are silly.
If that's in discussion about, say, managers in the transfer market, then it makes a lot more sense.
Just an opinion.
If that's in discussion about, say, managers in the transfer market, then it makes a lot more sense.
Just an opinion.
Exactly right Chief, some just use it torward their continued anti Berbatov agenda/obsession im afriad, it dosnt matter what form Berbatovs in, in big matches away from home especially were a nailed on certainty to go in with a 4-3-3/4-5-1 system as its been a proven productive method of success for us for some considerable time now especially in Europe and in no way shape or form is Rooney not going to be the main man up front in that system, barring injury....All this rubbish about if he were good enough wed make room blah blah is pointless and utter cobblers really because it wouldnt matter at all, in the big matches fergie likes and has liked 3 across the middle for a long long time now its what our entire game in such matches is based around, which only allows 1 main striker position and thats simply Rooney all day long.
Its not a slight on Berbatov at all it simply comes down to a numbers game, 3 across the middle 2 wide players leaves only one striker slot.
I've not seen delusion like this in a long, long time.
Can i ask you Boss have you watched us over the past 2 to 3 years and paid attention to the way Sir Alex sets out the team at all? are you claiming its not a certainty when a big important game especially away from home in Europe crops up were not going to go in 4-5-1/4-3-3? because i honestly cannot understand for the life of me how any United fan whos followed the team even remotly closely over recent years hasnt yet grasped what our 'go to' system is in these matches....its astounding really as its so patently obvious.
Our 'big games' this season:
Arsenal home - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Arsenal Away - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Chelsea away - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Man City carling cup away - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Man City carling cup home - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Cska Moscow away champions league - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Berbatov front man (Rooney didnt ravel through injury), win
Besiktas away champions league - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Rooney front man, win
Hell lets even go back to some of the big games last season:
Champions league semi final Arsenal _ System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Ronaldo front man, win
Champions league final Barcelona - System 4-3-3/-4-5-1 Ronaldo front man, lose
You see the point now Boss? its been pretty obvious for a long time now when a big game crops up were almost 100% certan to go in with a 4-3-3/-4-5-1 system as thats what Sir Alex has based his team around in such matches for some considerable time now, the one occasion we went 4-4-2 this season in a big game was at anfield, we lost, although im sure youll blame Berbatov for that the point is merely the 4-3-3/-4-5-1 is a proven succesfull system weve utilised in the bigger matches for some time now and unfortunatly for Berbatov it only allows 1 striker position.
So basically you think Sir Alex spent £32 million on a backup striker for the big games?
You spend that kind of money to buy a striker who you cannot leave out in the big matches. Had Berbatov actually done the business our team would be good enough to play 442 in the big matches and come out on top.
It just hasnt worked out that way and as we dont have another good option up front to make 442 the better system, we go with the 433 which suits the players we do have (except Berbatov).
If you recall, we were playing 2 up front in the first big matches we had after we bought him which were Liverpool away and Chelsea away, Arsenal away in the league and so on. Its only after several matches that was dropped as our results were poor and Berbatov wasnt scoring in the big matches. Had he have done so we'd have continued playing 2 up front which was obviously the plan from the start.
Whether we like it or not or whether it's right or wrong, more is expected of a player when he joins with a big fee. It's probably wrong, but that's the way it is. I expect more from Berbatov than I do from Diouf for example. It's just the way it is.
The argument that Berbatov can't get into the side for big games regardless of form is moot anyway because he simply hasn't shown the sort of form since he arrived that should make Sir Alex reconsider his tactics. Its not like he has been treated unfairly and dropped when he didn't deserve to be, his form has just been very ordinary for us.
So its Berbatovs fault 4-4-2 dosnt work in big matches? thats what your saying? nothing to do with the fact our midfield gets overrun in such games because were always a man light in that system? no its Berbatov fault basically?
Sorry dont accept that, 4-3-3/-4-5-1 has been our go to system for these matches for some time now, it started in Europe where Sir Alex sussed that teams were especially winning the midfield battles and we needed an extra man in there, and hence we adopted this new system and over the last couple of seasons weve set various new records in europe and reached back to back finals all on the back of this system and style of play, this was adopted long before Berbatov arrived.
We dont play 4-4-2 in the bigger matches because our results have shown we lose more than we win quite simply where as in a 4-3-3/-4-5-1 were actually very very hard to beat and have proven it to be a succesfull measure in these types of games over a consistent period, our best performances in the bigger matches recently have all come using 1 lone striker and 3 in the middle.
Ive no doubt whatsoever we'll go to Milan and play the same way, a proven productive formation dosnt get changed willy nilly and most experts fans etc all now expect to see us line up 4-3-3/-4-5-1 when these games come around, nothing to do with Berbatov whatsoever and everything to do with the fact 3 across the middle is what Fergie bases our game around in controlling the match and has said so many many times.
Just doesn't look like a player who has the right mentality to play for a club as big as United. Get's frustrated too easily, and seems to play in his own world at times. United are all about fluidity, urgency and quick passing. That's almost ALWAYS when we're at our best. It's why ronaldo was such a perfect fit. And Berbatov just always looks a little out of place with us. He seems to always be looking for perfection but getting nowhere near it, and over the course of a game you can see him losing patience with himself.
It's always slightly risky when you sign a player to give you a different dimension because there is a huge possibility that rather than doing that he will struggle to fit in and stick out like a sore thumb.
Anyhoo, he's got a nice goal for himself there. I just want to see a more decisive Berbatov. He's got such a good vision, but he's not showing it at all. He's struggling to tie all the ends of his game together.
It's always slightly risky when you sign a player to give you a different dimension because there is a huge possibility that rather than doing that he will struggle to fit in and stick out like a sore thumb.
Anyhoo, he's got a nice goal for himself there. I just want to see a more decisive Berbatov. He's got such a good vision, but he's not showing it at all. He's struggling to tie all the ends of his game together.
Spot on. The only player who could play the lone forward role ahead of this current Rooney was Ronaldo. Which says it all.
I just told you that all of our league away matches against Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool last season we had 2 strikers. The same goes for City away. Thats all our big away matches in the league last season. All of them. 2 up front. None of this go-to system nonsense, we had 2 up front each time last season in the league, those are the facts and a clear indication of why Sir Alex bought Berbatov. To be 1 of 2 strikers he would select in away matches even against the better sides.
Berbatov hasnt done the business against these sides despite being given those chances. Thats why we've gone to 1 up front, because our other striking options are no better. Had he have performed and got the goals he should have done then he would likely have continued to be picked in big matches away from home, as he was all last season in the league.
Last year against Liverpool away loss, was it not Tevez and Berba upfront, against Chelsea away, was it not Berba and Rooney upfront, Chelsea at home, Berba and Rooney upfront, Arsenal away at the emirates loss, Berba and Rooney upfront, against Inter away, Berba and Giggs upfront, City at home, Berba and Tevez upfront, City at home this year, Berba and Rooney upfront, this year against Liverpool at Anfield, Berba and Rooney upfront, against Leeds, Berba and Rooney upfront. You name me one of these chances Berbatov showed us why he's rated so highly.
I'm sorry, but there is no way Fergie bought a player for £31 million with the idea in mind to bench said player for all big games. He either planned to fit Berba into the 4-5-1 or to play a 4-4-2. Last seasons evidence would suggest that he planned to play the 4-4-2, but it just didnt work out.
I can't believe how people have convinced themselves otherwise!!!! Even at Anfield this year Sir Alex gave it one more chance!!!
And what were our results in those games? Lost/Lost/Drew/won correct? so quite clearly 4-4-2 wasnt working, correct? (and in Europe especially which is what i stated 4-5-1/4-3-3 has been our go to system for the last few seasons, Ronaldo had been playing mainly lone striker in europe long before we signed Berbatov.
We changed the system because quite clearly as results proved in the league 4-4-2 wasnt working in the bigger matches mainly down to our midfield being overrun (something that yet again happened this season at anfield when we went back to 4-4-2) we reverted to our european big match system and results have picked up considerably since....now unless your solely blaming a striker for our defeats in those big games which it seems you rather bizzarly are then its quite obvious to most that the 4-4-2 system as a whole simply wasnt working in the bigger matches and needed changing and unfortunatly for Berbatov playing with 3 in the middle only allows for 1 striker and thats Rooney all day long.
4-3-3/-4-5-1 has been by in large our go to system especially in the big european games for the best part of 3 years now, and its success has now meant we adopt it in the league in such matches.
Yup agreed.
Well obviously that's true! SAF would not have bought Berbatov if he had not planned to use him in the big matches. For whatever reason, that hasn't worked out.
If Berbatov delivered, we'd have continued to have play 2 up front.
Its only because he failed to score in all the big matches he played last season except Chelsea when we were already 2 up, that he has found his place on the bench.
The results werent good with 442, some goals from Berbatov could clearly have changed that. Some great performances could clearly have changed that. It didnt happen. He didnt score. So we changed our system.
Also you arent taking into account the deep lying position we had him playing last season. That was clearly meant to help the 2 central midfielders, so we didnt need 3 in midfield. Berbatov's role, Berbatov's name on the teamsheet, didnt work. So we changed our system and he sits on the bench.
We dont have the midfield to play 4-4-2 in the big matches i think there was a thread on this very subject a while back on here where this was widely agreed on, we have the midfielders that suit a 4-3-3 and the strikers who suit a 4-4-2, one has to be sacrificed and our record in a 4-3-3 is far superior to that of a 4-4-2 which has made the decision rather easy for Sir Alex....also aided with Rooney having such a great season and seemingly now blossoming in the lone front role.
We only need to play 4-5-1 when other teams play it against us. We have the midfielders but when it's 3 against 2, chances are that you will be overran.
So its Berbatovs fault we lost all those games with a 4-4-2? thats what your saying and its just bizzare logic.
No, wed played 4-5-1/4-3-3 long before Berbatov had even arrived as i said mainly in Europe with Ronaldo playing up top and Rooney wide left, the system wasnt changed off the back of Berbatovs form or lack of last season which is what your saying, thats simply not the case.
Back to claiming 4-4-2 dosnt work because of 1 striker which i say again is just bizzare logic, the midfield is what let us down in that system (again see anfield this season if further proof is needed) not the strikers, we dont have the midfield to play a 2 in there against the better sides Sir Alex figured that out a while ago.
Realsing how stupid he had been after wards. Playing 4-4-2 against any big side with our midfield is just plain dumb. & I don't care what anyone says, but Berbatov would never play in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 when Rooney in his current form is around. Even if Berba was in the form of his life.
Its ridiculous isnt it.
So Fergie bought Berbatov to play in a 4-4-2 in big matches, knowing that our midfield wasnt good enough for a 4-4-2 in big matches, then proceded to play said 4-4-2 in big matches, only to find that indeed, our 4-4-2 doesnt work in big matches, so then decided to change tactics to a 4-5-1, apart from one last try at the 4-4-2 vs Liverpool, only for us to lose again?
The denial in here is ridiculous.
To those who think Berbatov is powerless to get into starting XI for the big matches regardless of form, do you think his performances during his United career so far in the big games has been good enough and he deserves to play those games based on form? Ignoring what Sir Alex's favourite systems and tactics are, just judge him entirely on how well he has played.
To those who think Berbatov is powerless to get into starting XI for the big matches regardless of form, do you think his performances during his United career so far in the big games has been good enough and he deserves to play those games based on form? Ignoring what Sir Alex's favourite systems and tactics are, just judge him entirely on how well he has played.
So Fergie bought Berbatov to play in a 4-4-2 in big matches, knowing that our midfield wasnt good enough for a 4-4-2 in big matches, then proceded to play said 4-4-2 in big matches, only to find that indeed, our 4-4-2 doesnt work in big matches, so then decided to change tactics to a 4-5-1, apart from one last try at the 4-4-2 vs Liverpool, only for us to lose again?
Im with the Chief, this is just not worth anything but a laughing smilie.Well big games almost always have our opponents playing 3 in midfield. So anyone think we'd dare play 2 in midfield in such games, if Berbatov was on fire is just plain deluding themselves.
In a nutshell sums it up.
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