Im with the Chief, this is just not worth anything but a laughing smilie.
Exactly, ridiculous theory aint it?
Oh wait, its your theory summed up
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
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Exactly, ridiculous theory aint it?
Oh wait, its your theory summed up
Exactly, ridiculous theory aint it?
Oh wait, its your theory summed up
But thats the thing....it just isnt....so ill just laugh at you
theres so much wrong with your post its the best way.Too ridiculous. We've almost always lost whilst playing 4-4-2 agaisnt big sides in recent seasons. Or have been plain over ran in midfield, relying on our defence to win. But folks on here want to tell us an inform Berbatov would have miraculously made a difference to that fact.
Rooney is often fecked around to accommodate Berbatov? Why not stick Rooney on the left and Berbatov up top? A lot of the time, it's Park on the left anyway. Rooney is twice the player of Park so it's an upgrade on the left. There is nothing stopping Berbatov playing the strikers role. Considering Rooney is and has been fecked about positionally on numerous occasions to accommodate Berbatov, that shows that Berbatov would play if he was putting in the performances to merit it. I don't believe that if Berbatov was playing great stuff that he would be left out of the team. Rooney would be sacrificed, as per usual.
But thats the thing....it just isnt....so ill just laugh at you
We're all laughing at you mate.
Because I just summed up your theory, only for you to laugh at it. Which is brilliant in itself. The fact that you're only reply is some pathetic attempt at patronising and posting some laughing smilies says it all really.
Cue another reply at attempting humour and some more laughing smilies.
Too ridiculous. We've almost always lost whilst playing 4-4-2 agaisnt big sides in recent seasons. Or have been plain over ran in midfield, relying on our defence to win. But folks on here want to tell us an inform Berbatov would have miraculously made a difference to that fact.
Its best to just
if these people cant see the basic flaws in the 4-4-2 have nothing whatsoever to do with the frontmen and everything to do with the numbers in midfield its just not worth it really.Did well in 06/07 with 4-4-2.
Beat Liverpool twice. Didnt lose to Chelsea.
OKay we did lose to Arsenal twice, although by the time we played them the second time, our fantastic partnership of Rooney/Saha had been broken up.
What you're saying is that Fergie was wrong to buy Berbatov and play him in a 4-4-2 in the big matches all last season?
Why are you bringing up completely unrelated points?
Berbatov didnt deliver in those matches, not the goals and not the performances. Whether we won or not isnt the point here, but if he had put in great performances in some of those away matches and had scored a few goals in those matches we're much more likely to have had good results.
You said we dont play 442 in big matches. You didnt say only in the champions league. And last season we played 442 in all the big matches in the league, so you were clearly wrong. Now we're playing 433 in the league in big matches, even at home against Arsenal we did that. And that is down to Berbatov's lack of performances and goals in the big matches. Had he have done the business there is no evidence to suggest we would have changed system anyway and loads of evidence to suggest that we'd have continued to use 2 strikers up front in big matches away from home in the league. In the champions league? Maybe not. But in the league, definately.
Which is why Berbatov was played deep to help out our midfield. That decision wasnt working out so Sir Alex said he'd be playing him further forward this season. And now we're seeing he doesnt have a place in the big matches, because his playing that position last season wasnt fruitful in itself hence Sir Alex's comments about moving him.
If all Sir Alex wanted was a second striker to play in 4-4-2 against relagation fodder and mid-table sides it would have been cheaper to just buy Tevez. Berbatov was brought in to unlock defenses and provide magic against the big sides, not to warm the bench against them.
Ekeke
How on earth is it unrelated? your claiming 4-4-2 dosnt work and has been scrapped due to Berbatov not performing, thats what your saying and im saying its ridiculous logic as the system had been in place long before Berbatov arrived and the basic flaws of the system were quite clearly our midfield being overrun and hence now weve bulked up that area and its born fruit for us.....it has everything to do with it.
No, i said we started playing the 4-5-1/4-3-3 in europe a few seasons ago and it became our go to system in big matches this has no become the same in league matches due to our midfield being horribly insufficent as a 2 in such matches, of which the results clearly show, the fact your sighting last seasons results actually prove my point, 4-4-2 dosnt work for us in these matches and has since been changed to the system we previously adopted in Europe with 3 across the middle becasue our midfield was being overrun against the better sides, this has nothing to do with Berbatov and everything to do with Sir Alex identifying where we were losing these matches, the game at anfield this season is the perfect example, Lucas and Mascherano tottaly outfought Scholes and Carrick, we got overrun and outplayed in central midfield which happens 99% of the time we play that system in big games against better sides and we lost the game deservedly.
How on earth is it unrelated? your claiming 4-4-2 dosnt work and has been scrapped due to Berbatov not performing, thats what your saying and im saying its ridiculous logic as the system had been in place long before Berbatov arrived and the basic flaws of the system were quite clearly our midfield being overrun and hence now weve bulked up that area and its born fruit for us.....it has everything to do with it.
No, i said we started playing the 4-5-1/4-3-3 in europe a few seasons ago and it became our go to system in big matches this has no become the same in league matches due to our midfield being horribly insufficent as a 2 in such matches, of which the results clearly show, the fact your sighting last seasons results actually prove my point, 4-4-2 dosnt work for us in these matches and has since been changed to the system we previously adopted in Europe with 3 across the middle becasue our midfield was being overrun against the better sides, this has nothing to do with Berbatov and everything to do with Sir Alex identifying where we were losing these matches, the game at anfield this season is the perfect example, Lucas and Mascherano tottaly outfought Scholes and Carrick, we got overrun and outplayed in central midfield which happens 99% of the time we play that system in big games against better sides and we lost the game deservedly.
When and where?
& a terrible down grade on Rooney's role in the team.
Yes there is and his name is Wayne Rooney. Plain and simple. The same way Ronaldo stopped Rooney playing there last year. I don't see why it's so hard for folks to accept.
playing the strikers role.
That has never happened at all! The only person Rooney shifted about for was Ronaldo.
Bullshit. There is no way in hell Fergie would sacrifice his best player for another. The way we used Ronaldo should have taught people this obvious fact ages ago.
So in all those matches our midfield put in sterling performances and it was just Berba who let us down eh?
Even Rooney himself has suffered badly when we've insisted on 4-4-2 in big games. But all of a suddenly the only reason it doesn't work in big matches is Berbatov.......Please
So in all those matches our midfield put in sterling performances and it was just Berba who let us down eh?
Even Rooney himself has suffered badly when we've insisted on 4-4-2 in big games. But all of a suddenly the only reason it doesn't work in big matches is Berbatov.......Please
Aye. Unfortunately he's not going to be to some people's tastes, and as a result they'll link everything the goes wrong with his presence (or absence). I think we can all agree that he hasn't set the world alight, but he's also been variously asked to play a new role for his entire first season, and would appear to have been somewhat injured this. Whether those things would have affected the quality of his performances I don't know, but being the scapegoat for an entire team's failings must weight heavily on a player too.
Exactly. No manager in the world is gonna pay £31 million for a striker, with the idea in mind to bench them for every big game. But the fact is, thats whats happening. So who's fault is that?
When and where?
& a terrible down grade on Rooney's role in the team.
Yes there is and his name is Wayne Rooney. Plain and simple. The same way Ronaldo stopped Rooney playing there last year. I don't see why it's so hard for folks to accept.
playing the strikers role.
That has never happened at all! The only person Rooney shifted about for was Ronaldo.
Bullshit. There is no way in hell Fergie would sacrifice his best player for another. The way we used Ronaldo should have taught people this obvious fact ages ago.
What are you talking about? A lot of the time when Rooney and Berbatov were playing together, Rooney played as a target man. This is sacrificing Rooney. Rooney is not a target man. He needs to be involved in the play. SAF even said previously that he wanted to play Rooney in that role. That was to accommodate Berbatov as there is no way Berbatov was able to play in that role. So Rooney was being sacrificed for Berbatov. As it clearly didn't work and Rooney was being misused, SAF changed it back, understandably. Rooney looks better doing what he does now, which is whatever the feck he wants. There is no way he should ever have been confined. And whether you admit it or not, that was for Berbatov's benefit.
By the way, I'm not slagging off Berbatov. I'm simply saying how it looks.
I don't agree that Rooney should be moved to the left, but what I'm saying is he that he has been moved to the left previously in an attempt to get the best out of others. I think you should play your best players in your best positions. Rooney was moved about to help Ronaldo. The fact is that if Berbatov put in the quality performances that merited a space in the team, SAF would find a way to get him in. Rooney would be sacrificed as he has previously for both Ronaldo and Berbatov. Unfortunately, Berbatov hasn't quite got to the stage where he puts in the performances to make himself undroppable.
For you to say that Rooney has not been sacrificed before to accommodate Berbatov is just plain wrong. You are disagreeing for some reason in an attempt to blindly defend Berbatov, which is ludicrous in itself as I'm not even criticising him. SAF has changed the team and the team's formation before to suit specific players, including Berbatov. I'm surprised that you are disagreeing.
Exactly, ridiculous theory aint it?
Oh wait, its your theory summed up
Simplified to extreme proportions which kind of defeats the point entirely, though.
I'm not planning on getting into the debate for that very reason - if you're not going to go into plenty of detail then there's really no point in getting into it at all.
Bullshit really.
Yes. At a time we had the indian sign over them. Not because 4-4-2 was the best of ideas. Lets we forget they dominated us at Anfield yet we still somehow won. It was similar at OT. They had the ball and we did the scoring.
& weren't superb against them either.
It mattered little. Our tactics in that match and our formation that day were very much responsible for our defeat.
Rather I'm saying Fergie is wrong to use 4-4-2 in big matches period. Who he uses up front is immaterial. Even if we had Ruud in his pomp here it still wouldn't work 9 out of 10 times with the midfielders we have. & I'm including the wingers when I talk of midfielders.
Thats exactly right and the part that is so annoying yet frustratingly correct is the fact people do use Berbatov as a scapegoat for anything and everything, we lose in a 4-4-2 so its Berbatovs fault...we change the system because Berbatovs not good enough.. (despite having played it dozens of times before we even signed the lad
....its just Thats the bizzare logic floating about here though.
4-4-2 dosnt work because our midfield isnt good enough in such matches, most people can see this including the one that matters and hes bulked this area as a result, its just odd some cant see it.
So in all those matches our midfield put in sterling performances and it was just Berba who let us down eh?
Even Rooney himself has suffered badly when we've insisted on 4-4-2 in big games. But all of a suddenly the only reason it doesn't work in big matches is Berbatov.......Please
You just blindly defend a player for no reason when he is not being slagged off. Who is saying that it was Berbatov's fault that we didn't win those games? Who is saying it is Berbatov's fault that the midfield didn't dominate these games? Who the hell even said that Berbatov even let us down in those games?
So in all those matches our midfield put in sterling performances and it was just Berba who let us down eh?
Even Rooney himself has suffered badly when we've insisted on 4-4-2 in big games. But all of a suddenly the only reason it doesn't work in big matches is Berbatov.......Please
I think what's going on is fairly simple to grasp, in most of these games Berbatov was mostly a passenger disappearing for very large periods of play. This helps invite pressure on the team in such battles, the difference between him and Rooney is that Rooney is always looking to get on the ball, trying to make something happen, he never makes it easy for the defenders and they can never breathe even when he's playing badly.
Then again even if Berbatov does pop up every now and again you would start him hoping that his potential ability to decide such fixtures would be good enough. As you have already seen from the stats displayed this has been far from the case.
At the end of the day I think what is happening is fairly simple to see, and it does not need to be overcomplicated by these arguments over formations. Our number 9, is not accommodated in these big games anymore because of our formations? I don't buy it, but let's agree to disagree because this is only going in circles.
I wonder why Sir Alex looked into getting Benzema in the summer by the way. I wonder if he would have been sitting alongside Berbatov on the bench in big games too. Hmm, the truth is out there.
It's not Berba's fault SAF took ages to realise his midfield isnt good enough to use 4-4-2 against top sides. That 3-0 win over Chelsea last season and our good fortune of Liverpool at home had really pulled the wool over his eyes.
You're right sorry. We didnt win the title playing a 4-4-2 and not losing to Chelsea or Liverpool all season.
Oh, wait...
We were actually the better team for 80 minutes. Had Saha been fit and able to start I reckon we would have had that game wrapped up before Arsenal could hit us with to late goals. Its hardly liek we were outplayed, much the opposite infact.
So whats the point of buying a £31 million striker if he isnt going to play big matches?
I think they maybe said that he basically underperformed in those games. From having a quick glance through, I don't see where any of them specifically blamed Berbatov for those results.
No I didnt.
Find me one quote were I say 'Berbatov let us down' or even blamed him for the defeat.
So do you think if Sir Alex knew at the time his midfield wasn't good enough do you think he would have bought Berbatov?
Yes agrred especially when you consider that Chelsea side was in absolute turmoil at the time, Scolari was on his last legs Drogba wasnt interested Essien and Cole were amongs a few big players missing their form was appauling etc, we won in spite of the system that day against an unrecognisable Chelsea, our performances over recent years at anfield have also been pretty bog standard in all honesty, even the 1-0 wins we had were largely a backs against the wall job.
I honestly am struggling to remember the last time we played 4-4-2 against quality opposition and looked good, where as im sure many of us could name quite a few sterling displays of ours in the 4-5-1/4-3-3 weve now adopted.
Not even Sir Alex must have predicted how poor he would go on to perform in such games, I know I didn't! He's gave him countless chances. Surely he envisaged him as the dude to decide such games.
Utter bullshit really. In all the games we've lost playing 4-4-2 it's been down to the poverty of our midfield performance. Not due to any occurrence upfront. Due to being totally over ran in the department. Every single time! This stupid notion that Berba's lack of ''Rooney like work rate'' was to blame is dumb. Because even with Tevez around, extra work rate upfront never really worked either.
That is because we have no business using 4-4-2 against top sides. & I'm dead sure I'd rather have Rooney on form as my lone striker rather than an in form Berbtov up top and Rooney wide left. Any day of the week.
As long as he wasn't as good as Rooney he'd be benching too. Plain and simple. No one benches or shunts to another role the best player in a SAF team.
Evidently some people don't understand football.
We don't switch to a 4-5-1 in 'big games' because our midfield is 'weak'. We switch to that system because 4-4-2 is becoming obsolete. How many other big teams play a 4-4-2? Name one.
We play the 4-5-1 to match the opposing team's 4-5-1. It's really that simple.
Berbatov doesn't fit into that system as he's not versatile enough and his performances haven't justified playing other players (Rooney) out of position to accommodate him.
We don't switch to a 4-5-1 in 'big games' because our midfield is 'weak'. We switch to that system because 4-4-2 is becoming obsolete. How many other big teams play a 4-4-2? Name one.
We play the 4-5-1 to match the opposing team's 4-5-1. It's really that simple.
Berbatov doesn't fit into that system as he's not versatile enough and his performances haven't justified playing other players (Rooney) out of position to accommodate him.
Yes. Because his strike force needed reinforcements. But he should also have sorted out his midfield too.
Top poast again and specificaly that part for its context, didnt Tevez start upfront with Rooney in the home game against Liverpool where we lost 4-1? playing in a 4-4-2, look what happened there, we got spanked out of sight with our worst home defeat for years after yet again our central midfield being dogshit in that system against a top team which liverpool were back then....
Berbatov didnt but it clearly was his fault we didnt win.
Saying Berbatov would have kept playing if he put in very good performances and scored goals in those matches is a true statement.
It does not mean that Berbatov is to blame for those results. Any player on the pitch can score goals. If Rooney scored two in those games, we probably would have won.
It's not wrong to suggest though that if Berbatov was scoring goals in those matches, that he would have kept his place.
It is performances that matter. SAF will generally pick the players who perform the best.
Still looking are we? Or conveniantly ignoring this post?
4-4-2 worked pretty damn well in 06, we played some of our best football of the past decade (7-1 Roma...) and should have gotten to the Champions League Final (but you know, we played 4-5-1 in Milan and got stuffed 0-3).
That's silly because nobody is saying that.
You're making up an argument that you then argue against because obviously you are correct, but nobody is arguing to the contrary. Nobody is saying it was because of Berbatov that we lost those matches.
By the way, the missing element in these matches when we got tonked was Fletcher. He needs to be playing if we are going to go head to head against a good side with a 4-4-2 formation. We don't get overrun like that with him in the team.
But thats exactly the point, our strikers between them werent scoring in such games because our midfield was pretty awful to be blunt against the better sides, both Berbatov and Rooney had nothing but scraps to feed on in those matches, and anfield this season, still beggers belief how badly Carrick and Scoles were played out of it by the liverpool midfield in october, but perfect justification of why we now play with the 3 man central midfield against these sides at every opportunity.
Utterly stupid statements. Our winning a title with 4-4-2 has feck all to do with us being great with 4-4-2 in big games.
Well football isn't played for 80 minutes. Never has been. Our chances of losing with a 4-4-2 were far higher than most on here like to admit. Becuase of this mad love for the formation. The same shit happened to us vs Chelsea at home that year. Difference was that time we escaped with a draw.
Strengthening your forward line. For the entire season. Not just for the start of big matches.
I agree 100% your spot on, Fletcher was a big miss as he always is, Carrick and Anderson that day just like Carrick and Scholes at anfield this season werent up to it, the system and the personel for those matches were wrong.
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