So you're response to this is that the reason we are keeping Mata and Matic on new contracts is because they are winners and they will make a huge difference to our team, now who is talking nonsense. It's jobs for the boys, more ex-players being given soft contracts and coaching roles because they used to play for us. We used to be ruthless with old players, we used to employ the best coaches in the game (Brian Kidd, Quieroz, etc), coaches with an actual background in coaching. Now the coaching staff is being filled with ex-players who we can't let go.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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Lingard doesn't want to go back to West Ham, all the stories coming out are him wanting to come back to United. I am not saying we don't have winners in our team, the point is we are keeping players on huge contracts who won't get game time, then we are whinging about possibly paying Varane 350-400k a week. Get rid of Mata and Matic and you probably are half way there. Why keep Mata on as playing staff? If he wants to be a coach, fine, pay him coach wages.
No, my response was to point out how ridiculously stupid it was to say these players aren't winners just so you can have another dig. Filled with ex players, hey? Here's a list of our principle coaching staff. Why don't you have a quick tally up and tell me how many of them are ex players?
It's funny you mention how we used to be. We used to keep the same core players around the club for years, even if they didn't play all that often. We used to bring legends out of retirement as opposed to signing new. We used to have a manager who understood the importance of having experienced heads about the place. Sounds familiar?
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We’ll have to disagree then.
They are not screeners. The are pro active DMs. Screemers are the only type of DMs out there.
Camavinga is first choice at Rennes
You can't be serious. Delaney and Witsel are comfortably better than Mctominay. Carvalho is better defensively. Douglas is a superior passer and defender than even Rice.
I dont see why ANYONE would want him at that price. He is not head and shoulders above anyone I put in that list. He is at a similar level or slightly above. There isnt a shortage of top grade DMs in world football at the moment that the bank should be broken on one. Unless you are gaining a Busquet's/Kante class one in exchange.
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You may disagree of course but there’s no need to be silly. The sentiment I was trying to convey, in brief, is that he is so good defensively that he greatly increases the chance of clean sheets (the expression I used was prompted in part by England’s mean defence with Rice in DM).
Many posters on here are expecting Carrick and Keane rolled into one. I don’t. I prioritise what we lack in CM, for want of a better single term to summarise this: defensive authority.
Which reports are these? There's been nothing from the big papers/journalists like BBC, Athletic, James Ducker, Simon Stone etc unless you're the type who believes EVERYTHING they read even if it's from Daily Star/The Sun
And he has no reason to come back he forced a move when Greenwood/Cavani/Martial were not in the best form and no Amad he'll be coming back with Greenwood/Cavani back to their best AND new arrivals in Sancho/Amad as well as Bruno/VDB in the 10 role why would be all of a sudden switch his mindset when circumstances for him to succeed are much harder now than January?
You really think that’s down to Rice and not for example versus Germany, us playing 5 defenders, 2 defensive mids, a wing back with zero goal threat at wide forward, and just two actual goal threats?
Come on. Your post was rather sensationalist.
England's mean defense is down to a multitude of things. Rice is just one of the 6/7 defensive players Southgate decides to play. To assert that he's one of the key reasons England keep clean sheets, particularly when his club plays a similarly robust system but with indifferent results, flat out disregards the tactical aspect and the contribution of all those other defensive players. Besides, he has been thoroughly outperformed by his partner so far this tournament.
We also lack the capacity to build though midfield. We don't have an effective link between the defense and midfield and we don't have someone who can dictate. Rice not only wouldn't improve us in that department, he'd make us worse.
We’ll just disagree then.
Yes I really think Rice is the key to making England’s systems work as they are intended to by the coach.
I must have missed when Kieran McKenna played for United. Did Valencia get a coaching gig? Did Ole stop his former team mate Nicky Butt from leaving? Wheres the jobs for Sheringham, Cole, Yorke and Ruud? Why's Roy Keane and Paul Scholes not at the club?
Could it be that Ole wants these experienced players who have positive influences on the young players to stick around a little longer? Nah lets go with your agenda whatever the feck that is.
I just can't see why we would spend such silly money on a DM. For £70m on a DM it would have to be a generational talent that was going to dominate the position for years and was already a big name in Football.
It's not worth spending that sort of money on a player such as Rice as, whilst he might do the job well, so could many others at a fraction of that cost.
It's not worth spending that sort of money on a player such as Rice as, whilst he might do the job well, so could many others at a fraction of that cost.
There has to be better options out there?
If you think we overpaid for Maguire and/or AWB, this would just be another level imo. Even with the massive leverage we should have for Lingard it seems like they'll be looking to rob us blind for him as they massively overcharge us for Rice.
If you think we overpaid for Maguire and/or AWB, this would just be another level imo. Even with the massive leverage we should have for Lingard it seems like they'll be looking to rob us blind for him as they massively overcharge us for Rice.
I don’t think we overpaid for either of those two. But the economics of it is the most difficult part to assess. What matters is the primary need of the team and the availability of options. And then of course how highly you rate the options. If you don’t rate Rice, you will no doubt think he is overpriced even if available for less than the crazy figures reported.
Now out of those let’s compare apples with apples so rule out the dogs that chase cars so we’re looking at rice types
Put it this way. At one point in recent memory you could have signed Kante and Fabinho for less than the price Rice is being quoted. We don’t need to get rinsed on workhorses
Thing is he’s a safe bet if that’s what you’re looking for. He doesn’t do it for me at those prices but I can see him improving over the years in a better team. It also looks like he’s nailed on for England for the next few years so there’s obviously some marketability there too
Thing is he’s a safe bet if that’s what you’re looking for. He doesn’t do it for me at those prices but I can see him improving over the years in a better team. It also looks like he’s nailed on for England for the next few years so there’s obviously some marketability there too
To those arguing that Rice isn’t good enough on the ball, if he is in a midfield 3 with Pogba and Bruno, do we need him to be?
Surely his role would be to hound the opposition, get the ball back, then give the ball back to Pogba/Bruno to start an attack.
Surely his role would be to hound the opposition, get the ball back, then give the ball back to Pogba/Bruno to start an attack.
The real question is whether Pogba is going to be here next year and, if so, whether we will be trying to shoehorn him into midfield alongside Bruno. If the answer to both of those is "yes", then I agree, we need a defensive superman to get it to work - his passing ability will be of secondary importance to his ability to cover huge amounts of space, snuff out opposition counterattacks and win the ball back.
If, on the other hand, Pogba is off, we can rebuild the midfield around a couple of players who can both pass and defend, which is something none of our existing midfield options are seemingly capable of.
Both reasonable arguments.
Yeah surely Utd can see that we need someone who is able to pass from deep and break the lines rather than just a sitting DM
We have Maguire and / or Pogba to do that.
Do you honestly think there aren't cheaper options out there who can still do the same thing though
There is no defensive super man who can cover for Pogba. If Fred or Kante can’t do it, it’s not happening with Rice either. It’s either Pogba OR Bruno or Pogba goes on the left.
I think what will happen if we buy Rice is we will try that 3 and we will get picked off another few times for good measure by giving up the midfield battle and then Ole will try to develop Rice into a box to box for his prime years. I’m not sure he has it in him though. He’s a glorified 3rd centre back at the moment.
Yeah would much rather we targeted a Camavinga/Saul/Brozovic type of player
People seem to think Rice can't pass or even run with the ball, he does this every week for West ham, yes he's not going to be making 30 yard passes but we don't need that!
We need someone who runs alot, makes tackles and doesn't give away silly fouls or gives away after 2 touches.
Will he cost alot? Perhaps but if we buy him he'll be in the team for ages,
We need someone who runs alot, makes tackles and doesn't give away silly fouls or gives away after 2 touches.
Will he cost alot? Perhaps but if we buy him he'll be in the team for ages,
Sounds suspiciously like Morgan Schneiderlin. He was top of the stats for all that off the ball stuff. Came here. Jogged around a bit. Passed it 5/10 yards and hid when there was any real pressure on the ball. The most pointless player ever. We could have promoted a youth to do the exact same thing. I guess we eventually did with McT
Anyone remember Carrick getting slated regularly? It’s not a position fans appreciate, carrick got some lovely goals and assists too, much more of a box to box than Rice currently is. I just don’t see it with Rice unless he’s going to become a much braver player on the ball
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Yeah just cannot helped feeling very underwhelmed by this one
I don't know what you're getting at tbh. We let Jesse leave on loan. If Ole loved him so much, he wouldn't have left on loan.
Plus it *is* possible to be "nice" and also have a winning mentality. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
And honestly, team spirit matters. Do you think you'd be more willing to run through a wall for someone you like and respect, or dislike and can't see eye to eye with?
Rather we paid £100m for Kante than Rice
I know I’m in the minority but yes I honestly do think there is nobody cheaper who has the Rice package.
He is more than the sum of his tackles and passes. He understands the game as it is happening and can influence his team mates and the whole game beyond what his stats will tell you. He is a leader among elite players and he does it with less technical ability than most of them.
All these attributes together are rarer than rare.
Honestly I don’t know what fee he should reasonably command. Players go for crazy money. I certainly wouldn’t complain about the fee if we got him even if he uses up the rest of the pot (if there is one).
It depends who we are playing. But it certainly does not follow that just because Kante and Fred can’t do it then Rice can’t. Rice is different to both of those guys. But sure, Pogba at 8 must play with some positional discipline which probably takes away from his attacking potential.
It really does. When he tries to be disciplined I’m not saying he’s sulking, he’s not, he’s just majorly blunted and still as liable to get dispossessed there where there was no danger before. He’s just better as a 10 or an 8.5. Gotta be the most attacking guy to let him do his thing. I thought he was good on the left for us and he seemed happier to track back on the wing than Rashford.
On Rice the more I think about it the more I think he could be developed into a quality box to box. He’s actually got a better passing range than I gave him credit for but he’s clearly very stationary for West Ham and England . He’s Strong. Can dribble past the press. Good tackling obviously and he’s scored a few belters. There’s a lot there to work with. The price is still mental though. Using him as a sitter for £80 million is crazy.
It’s not at all, and only someone willfully ignorant would think it was. It’s one of those rallying points dumb people use to feel smart.
Why does their money matter? Because there’s a budget. When you have a budget, you can only spend so much, right? So that means the more you spend on one player, the less you can spend on the second and third. See how that knock-on effect can make it so you can’t buy new players?
It’s crazy money whatever happens. But I really wouldn’t describe him as a sitter. He moves about the pitch a lot. But if we bought him I would hope it would be to play as a 6. That’s probably my tactical preference coming out but I don’t like two free CMs (two box to boxes) I like a 6 and an 8. I think Rice and McT has a nice look to it. Stick Pogba left most games, play him as 8 against fodder.
If he's that good we should do everything we can to bring him in.
He's the type of profile Fergie would've broke the bank for..
Young, British and hungry for success
He's the type of profile Fergie would've broke the bank for..
Young, British and hungry for success
I think that’s true. But the other type SAF loved was the mercurial talent like Grealish. I wonder which of Rice and Grealish he would choose if he could only get one. My hunch is he would go for Grealish. Probably he would find a way to get one this year and the other next year…
Grealish would have been bought last year itself had SAf been incharge still and we would have been focusing on Rice for this season.
I’d like to think so. Would have been great.
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