I’d rather get Phillips than Rice, especially if we play with a double pivot
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Declan Rice
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I seriously doubt that. Not only does England have a well organized defence. They have a collection of very good double pivot players. Even if you played Phillips with Bellingham or Henderson instead. I'd wager the defensive results would be the same. I think people give way to little credit to how Southgate sets up his team.
England's defensive record really shouldn't be looked at as something down to Rice. I think a better thing to look at is the fact that England and the team they just kicked out were the best at recovering the ball quickest from the opposition in the tournament. I think he and Phillips have a fantastic rhythm and understanding going between them when they go for ball recovery. It's been crucial in every game.
How anyone can look at any game Rice has played this season and see an £80-100m midfielder I do not know.
Paying that for a holding midfielder it had better be the next Busquets or Xabi Alonso.
Paying that for a holding midfielder it had better be the next Busquets or Xabi Alonso.
I think watching him in the national team has convinced me he could do a job for us. What if we told him 'that's your job'? It's the job we need doing. I reckon he could do it.
I also think £50m would be about a fair shout.
i'd take Phillips over Rice 100% as Phillips is every bit as good on the ball but he's much more mobile and he's got a little bit of nastiness to him
It's less a question of price and more me feeling it is 100% what we need (a real defensive midfielder), and the impact it would have on the squad would be huge as we don't have one in the squad right now apart from Matic who is too old now. Also I'd rather spend on players than the glazers pocketing more money. I would gladly skip on a CB this summer if it meant we fixed our midfield. After Sancho, the midfield is the biggest thing for me.
I like Phillips more as a player, but don’t think he’s the player we need out of the two of them.
If Phillips can play in Bielsa's system of man marking and thrive as a lone holding mid that shows me he's good enough to play that role for United with having someone next to him whether it be Fred or Scott
Has he thrived for Leeds?
Just asking because I was quite exited about him coming up from the championship and he has been a bit meh in the PL this year when I saw him.
Is Rice a converted CB, or equally capable a defender as he is a midfielder?
I think he came through as a youth player as a CB, but then as he become more and more important for West Ham he became a defensive midfielder and hasn't looked back since.
Any time I see him I totally think he's a CB if he wants to be playing anywhere higher in the league, though. I think when Lampard was really hot on him the idea was to play him at CB for Chelsea.
Ah. Does he have any high profile games for West Ham in the position? I’m wondering whether the plan with him is not only to slot him into midfields, but also allow us formation flexibility (particularly as CB in a 3-man back line) as and when we desire.
None that I can see on paper! According to Transfermarkt, in the past 3 seasons he has played CB 3 times. The rest were all 'DM' according to their sources.
It could be that he's moved into CB during games or played a lot deeper perhaps, but I do think he's very much a DM for West Ham these days. So maybe my views are totally just wrong, but I don't think it's snobbery or anything; I just don't think he can play on the ball well enough as a DM in the way others higher up the table and across Europe can.
Just wondered how good a CB he is as I seem to recall him being touted as equally capable in both positions, but don't watch West Ham other than when they play us, so no real idea of his ability back there.
Those that have watched him say he's adventurous and more capable with his passing than he ever even attempts in an England shirt, so it is all rather curious.
I really don’t see the hype. He just looks like a good midtable player. The reported fee it would cost to sign him would be better used elsewhere. I’m not convinced he’s that much better than Matic & Fred. For £80m you want world class, and he’s certainly not that.
he must have done something right for Leeds to get called into the England squad and now seems a nailed on starter for Southgate
Watching Pogba play alongside Kante for France has convinced me that buying Rice so that Pogba can play in a two man midfield for Utd is unlikely to have the result people think it will.
We won't get him for 50 million.
Nor do I, I was just stating what I thought would be a fair price. I don't think we'll get him full stop.
Watching how free Phillips gets forwards, tackles and passes is why I want Rice. I want that freedom for Pogba (& Bruno) if he is a player who plans on staying here.
Why don’t you enlighten me?
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Interesting, there's no doubt he's the better player but then they don't exactly play the same roll. However, the fact he gets more fouls against him year in year out tells you it's no fluke. That being the case can you imagine (( unfortunately)) the likes of De Bruyne with those free kicks into the box. Frightening if the nosy neighbors get him.
I see your point about slowing the game down but there's more positives than negatives with Grealish. I'd love him at OT but not happening.
Got to get the CM sorted. Sancho and new CB considered, CM is an obvious weak spot in our team. Definitely need a quality DM to release Pogba and Fernandschhhhhh to do their thing.
Clearly. He wouldn't be first choice for Southgate if he were foundering
TBF to Grealish. I think at a villa he slows down play and hogs the ball a bit too much because he doesn't trust his team mates enough to release the ball to them. I think with better teammates around him like he showed in his brief cameo vs Germany. He can be very devastating for he trust the people he needs to release the ball to more
Sorry but what exactly is a “limited footballer” that you talk about? Look at some of United’s best players from last season: Cavani, Rashford, AWB, Maguire - all “limited” footballers. Yet their one of our best players.
There’s very not-limited footballers in the top levels of world football. There’s only so little Neymar’s/Ronaldo’s/Messi’s of the world. We’re lucky enough to have Bruno/Pogba/Shaw. Maybe the word you were looking for is “dynamic”? Because for the most part in football, players that play in their specialized positions are limited apart from players who play in more advanced, attacking positions. Speaking of which, Sancho is being finalized who we will soon also have. Heck, even Henderson is not “limited”(or is dynamic) for a goalkeeper. That makes 4or5 guys on the roster.
What’s the Shane’s a against AWB? He’s the best shutdown RB in the world. Whenever he plays, 99% of the time you know the opponents left side attack is going to be nullified. I think a lot of us don’t appreciate just how difficult that is to do let alone master it, and his offensive play in joining the attack is a bonus which he improved on. Fred is frustrating at times and has a horrible touch yes but he’s also our best player often times. He’s a ball winning CM that’s been forced to play DM so the fault isn’t fully on him. Rice? He’s a DM, he doesn’t-not have to be “limited”. Just sound enough in his specific position/role to allow the rest of the team to succeed and do their things. Similarly to what Maguire is or even a VVD. They’re “limited” but why does that term have to bring along a negative connotation? Because they’re top players. Look at players like Matic in their prime - limited, but the best in the world. I don’t really get it. Be assured however if we’re able to get Rice, he’ll improve the team a lot without question.
To be fair I am making slightly harsh judgements because I haven't really seen him play that much at West Ham and I'm looking purely on his potential impact for us (not other clubs). I think at £40m, he'll have to be a certified starter, otherwise it wouldn't be any point to bench someone like Fred or rotate. I do have a slight bias and perhaps pipe dream of hoping Fred can become our Fernandinho. I reckon under the right coach he can do that and channel the energy, short passing and combatitive qualities in a more disciplined area of the pitch.
So therefore if we get Varane and Sancho, a Fred at the base of midfield with Pogba and Bruno in line (i.e deeper) may be enough to dominate and penetrate most teams that we've had difficulty doing.
Anyways, hopefully Rice can prove me wrong, we'll see.
Very impressed with both, and you have a good point.
On the Phillips is better than Rice idea, Phillips has been more eye catching but Rice does a lot of low-profile work with his positioning and simple passing. With Rice you are buying his intelligence and character as much as his physical ability.
Phillips is a Fred type, to me. Take away your preconceptions and stick Fred in the England midfield in place of Phillips and he would play in a similar way and look decent doing it.
Rice makes those who play with him look good. If that sounds like damning with faint praise, the importance of the team and the “sum of the parts” is being undervalued.
Phillips is a Fred type, to me. Take away your preconceptions and stick Fred in the England midfield in place of Phillips and he would play in a similar way and look decent doing it.
Rice makes those who play with him look good. If that sounds like damning with faint praise, the importance of the team and the “sum of the parts” is being undervalued.
This. Hes not a bad player, but not a chance in hell hes worth that kind of money
But a Fred who can pass the ball.
Phillips' passing > Rice's from what I've seen. I'd expect more from Rice in that area for the money.
Good to see the Phillips train getting momentum finally
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Then I guess he will retire as a West Ham player because £80m - £100m is absolutely ridiculous.
The long forgotten art of actually carrying out the instructions of the coach (to a high standard, by the way). He is making the England team function as intended.
He is working extremely hard as well; doing that job in the way he is doing it is not a piece of cake at all. He doesn’t sit, he patrols and manoeuvres. Relentlessly.
£50m would be a steal but is in the realm of fantasy I feel.
He did grow into the game and was a calming presence bringing the ball out from the back on various occasions during the weekend, I give him that. Especially after an initial shaky start, predominantly against Goretzka's powerful and direct running.
The fee is still ridiculous.
The fee is still ridiculous.
Not worth the price West Ham want him for.
Do not want.
Chelsea can have him, and hopefully for 80M
I've never thought there was a lot between him and McTominay but concede Rice does have more natural defensive instincts which may mean he's a marginal upgrade. At the price West Ham are saying they'd want though you'd want a hell of a lot more than just a marginal upgrade
For me Rice is a ready made man utd player for the next decade.
He is a ball winner and can sit in our midfield allowing our attacking players to do their thing.
The price being asked is crazy, but if we offer Lingard in part ex it may work for us. I just feel Chelsea will want to flex their muscles, but do they need him with Kante, kovacic and co?
He is a ball winner and can sit in our midfield allowing our attacking players to do their thing.
The price being asked is crazy, but if we offer Lingard in part ex it may work for us. I just feel Chelsea will want to flex their muscles, but do they need him with Kante, kovacic and co?
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