I think our defence in general was the best aspect of our game + Saka.
Declan Rice
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He's not a worry, he will always defend well, but we need to balance him out when picking the other 2 midfielders.
Becausethe further into the trounament we go he better the teams we play and more spells without possesion and getting hit byquik counter attacks. Mainoo is a fabulous player anda very young oneand the defensive side of his game has a lot of development. I never at any point said Rie is our best player, neither did I say we need defensively minded players.
Surely watching us the last couple of years with the likes of Eriksen and McTominay you can see how a cm lacking in that area of there game is a weakness. And no Imnot saying Mainoo is lacking. That is why Bellingham ismoved bak for me, he has the intelligence,development and attributes toplay box to box.Trent is lost there, Gallagher is little more than a pressing machine, neither should be playing butat this stage, Mainoo should for me anyway be the first choicebe bench option
Exactly what I was saying
So my point is we can't play Bellingham with him, which I doubt you will agree with.
Rice was fine.
You cant play someone like Rice with someone like Trent Alexander Arnold because neither played any progressive passes. Rice is fundementally a destroyer - not a creator.This is why some people find him boring to watch because what he does do is more off the ball than on the ball.
TAA was supposed to dictate play simply because he has a good crossing ability but was always stopping and side passing instead- so we had absolutely no way of getting the ball from midfield to attack.Add that we have no left wing or left back - our passes were always to the right to Saka.Gallagher is more like a Fred like player with an engine but not necessarily technical or creative either.
Southgate either needs to play Mainoo at CM next to Rice - ie replacing kalvin phillips role from the last euros or play Bellingham at CM and move Foden back in to his more useful central role.
You cant play someone like Rice with someone like Trent Alexander Arnold because neither played any progressive passes. Rice is fundementally a destroyer - not a creator.This is why some people find him boring to watch because what he does do is more off the ball than on the ball.
TAA was supposed to dictate play simply because he has a good crossing ability but was always stopping and side passing instead- so we had absolutely no way of getting the ball from midfield to attack.Add that we have no left wing or left back - our passes were always to the right to Saka.Gallagher is more like a Fred like player with an engine but not necessarily technical or creative either.
Southgate either needs to play Mainoo at CM next to Rice - ie replacing kalvin phillips role from the last euros or play Bellingham at CM and move Foden back in to his more useful central role.
Gordon - Kane - Saka
Foden
Rice - Bellingham
Trippier-Guehi-Stones-Walker
Pickford
Is the team he needs to play
Foden
Rice - Bellingham
Trippier-Guehi-Stones-Walker
Pickford
Is the team he needs to play
I do disagree yes, why do you think that though?
Because neither are able to add much to the passing game, to combating the press, or dictating play. They are both primarily physical players, they bully. We need more ball players.
Well totally disagree and I think Bellingham will be playing in that position for Madrid soon, maybe evennext season. Could add a lot more about both forwhy I disagree but Bellingham just being a bully with no passing game or ability to dictate play, seriously what on earth.....they were both terrible in our last game, is this a reaction to the game or a general feeling....as...actually leaveit there, absolute hogwash
The fear in his game has really surprised me at these Euros. I have considered him someone who is rock solid at doing the things he is good at; someone who will plod along and give you a 7/10 no matter what, whilst those around him oscillate between 3's to 8's and 9's.
Instead, he is showing fear on both sides of the ball. Not showing for it in possession. Not making himself available to receive it out of possession. Actively hiding and shirking his duties and praying someone else picks up the baton in his absence.
Unfortunately for him, he was partnered with Gallagher yesterday, who is even more timid and overwhelmed by the tasks of progressing the ball. England had a heart of midfield who didn't want the ball between them! So constantly had to use CB's and forced balls wide to attempt anything constructive. No first receiver, and not even a midfielder actively seeking the role of second receiver.
I didn't expect this from a 25-year old Rice. Gallagher simply doesn't have the ability, so he is excused, but from Rice, it's pure nerves and fear. Looking to a 19-year old who hasn't even a year of professional football under his belt to do things in lieu of doing them yourself is a big surprise. Didn't think Rice had such a herd mentality. Hope for his sake he snaps out of it and goes into the KO stages with some belief in himself.
Instead, he is showing fear on both sides of the ball. Not showing for it in possession. Not making himself available to receive it out of possession. Actively hiding and shirking his duties and praying someone else picks up the baton in his absence.
Unfortunately for him, he was partnered with Gallagher yesterday, who is even more timid and overwhelmed by the tasks of progressing the ball. England had a heart of midfield who didn't want the ball between them! So constantly had to use CB's and forced balls wide to attempt anything constructive. No first receiver, and not even a midfielder actively seeking the role of second receiver.
I didn't expect this from a 25-year old Rice. Gallagher simply doesn't have the ability, so he is excused, but from Rice, it's pure nerves and fear. Looking to a 19-year old who hasn't even a year of professional football under his belt to do things in lieu of doing them yourself is a big surprise. Didn't think Rice had such a herd mentality. Hope for his sake he snaps out of it and goes into the KO stages with some belief in himself.
Rice lacks ability as well.
Some people underestimate the input a manager has on the team. For example compare the performances of the likes Beckham, Scholes and Gaz with United vs with England. SAF could get the very best out of his players something other managers could not
How i know Rice did fine is because of the score sheet.
Rice stops attacks, not creates them.
It's like people want to play Modric & Kroos all the time in a midfield without Casemiro.
What happened to the time when a player like Makelele was invaluable?
It's like ever since Pep's come through everyone needs to play his type of football or something and have defenders who creates chances, midfielders who dribble past players aswell as pass through balls accurately not needing to be that great off the ball because they just hold on to possesion for ages than actually defend.
Not every team in the world has to play to Pep's tactics & not every player has to be good enough to get in to City's first 11 technically.
Rice stops attacks, not creates them.
It's like people want to play Modric & Kroos all the time in a midfield without Casemiro.
What happened to the time when a player like Makelele was invaluable?
It's like ever since Pep's come through everyone needs to play his type of football or something and have defenders who creates chances, midfielders who dribble past players aswell as pass through balls accurately not needing to be that great off the ball because they just hold on to possesion for ages than actually defend.
Not every team in the world has to play to Pep's tactics & not every player has to be good enough to get in to City's first 11 technically.
Playing with best midfielder in Premier League, Odegaard, and experienced players like Jorginho and Partey is not that hard. It disguise all those problems and fault Rice have. Also playing in a team where attackers do lot of work helps out. I have been laughed at when I said that Rice is just average player. He can run and cover lot of km. Hardworking. Thats it. Lot of players can do that. He got lucky playing with good players. Over £100m? West Ham is still laughing about that price.
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There is a lot in between stopping attacks and creating them. I don't care if he never gets an assist or goal or even close. He needs to be much better and more effective with his passing, but I think he's just limited.
His positioning and defensive reading is very good.
He is limited and no, he doesn't need to be much better in general. Kante and Casemiro didn't and they're all time greats. England needs him to be better right now, because England lack deep ball progressing players and tempo setters, Southgate doesn't seem to trust the 2 closest things to that type of player, and the team is disjointed, devoid of ideas and relying on two clearly unfit superstars to carry the day - except they've been the worst players on the pitch two games straight because they're in no shape to play right now.
I feel like you didn't watch Kante and Casemiro, they were significantly better.
I've watched Casemiro's entire career. No he wasn't. He was good on the ball when not under pressure, and he was good in the final third, and ghosting into the box. Rice is the same. Madrid used to push Casemiro up behind Benzema during the intial build up phases, same as Arteta has been doing with Rice
Kante too. He's not the sort of player you want receiving the ball under pressure deep in your half. You want to spring him in space.
Anyways, England's biggest issue is Bellingham and Kane, fix that and it might fix most everything else
Both were much better passers and kante better at moving with the ball.
Kante was on another stratosphere at receiving the ball under pressure compared to Rice (and Casemiro).
His place in the England's starting eleven shouldn’t be as secure as it is.
His game has moved more towards a no.8 position at Arsenal, but then he doesn’t have the ability of others in that area.
Maybe when England play teams who will attack them more his qualities can shine. But in a team that dominates the ball he is a bit meh.
His game has moved more towards a no.8 position at Arsenal, but then he doesn’t have the ability of others in that area.
Maybe when England play teams who will attack them more his qualities can shine. But in a team that dominates the ball he is a bit meh.
He has no competition though.
I think im with the madrid fan knowing it about Casemiro.
You just never rate Rice so jump on any oppurtunity to have a go at his ball playing ability when he isnt that type of midfielder.
Makelele and Guttuso. What's your opinion of them?
Casemiro played just sitting behind providing cover for Kroos & Modric to do their own thing. People who didnt regularly watch R Madrid used to ask what Casemiro does in the real madrid team because he seemed like he did almost nothing, but ofcourse he provide stability to play two creative playmakers in one team. He wasn't a third playmaker or even close.
Just because england are not using their Kroos or Modric in the team doesn't make Rice useless.
You just want him to play like Michael Carrick or Pirlo before you rate him.
Also Rice has more assists, passes, long balls and cross accuracy than Kante whilst nearly half his age & has many more games to play in the PL having moved to Arsenal just this season from West Ham whilst Kante has played for Leicester and Chelsea.
Arsenal's defence was the least goal scored against this year wasn't it? Or atleast in the top 3 & that's predominantly because of what Rice does.
No one mentioned playmaker, or playing like Carrick or Pirlo, just asking him to collect and move on the ball a lot better than he does. Makelele was a great passer of the ball, he was such a core part of his teams passing play. You don't need to be flashy to be a good passer, Makelele is leagues better than Rice. Guttuso was not good on the ball, but you could get away with it a lot more back then.
Makelele was brilliant on the ball to the point Chris Coleman centered his entire game plan around around stopping him.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2370566/coleman-reveals-masterplan
Exactly this. I think people expect Rice to be almost a 1 man midfield, being as equally as good with the ball as he is without it, a creative hub as well as a defensive monster.
I'm watching the much lauded Joao Neves currently (I'm 1 of those that love him as well), and I dont think I've seen him pass it longer than 4 yards so far. He does what most do in that position, keep it simple, keep it moving, with the occasional probing pass.
I thought Rice was fine yesterday. He nearly had a very good pre assist for Foden if he hadn't strayed offside. Rice isn't the problem himself, it's the partner next to him that's the problem, and the best bet for that just now looks like it's Mainoo.
It was Rice’s best game of the tournament so far. He was ok. He does appear way more limited than he does for Arsenal, but honestly, tell me a single player that isn’t a lesser version of themselves under Southgate.
He was kinda frustrating to watch the first two games, especially against Denmark, but he had to babysit Trent for most of them, so some leeway will be extended from me.
Rice is another in a long line of players that tend to have too much expected of them for their abilities and what they are actually good at (Jude is another), mostly because the general public doesn’t sit and watch every Arsenal/West Ham game for 90 minutes. People seem to expect him to be this all action Rodri level DM that can do it all when that’s not really his forte. He’s a physical beast that can cover a lot of ground, win headers, tackle, intercept etc. and has enough technical ability to not be a liability in possession. But he’s not Kroos or some progressive savant that’s going to constantly find Kane and Foden pinging balls into their feet through the lines. Arteta realized it too with him which is why you saw more Partey/Jorginho next to him as the season went on, and it’s why you have to have a top progressor that can do that part for him.
That doesn’t mean he’s not a very good player, just that people seem to misprofile him.
That doesn’t mean he’s not a very good player, just that people seem to misprofile him.
It does mean he's not very good, it means he's kinda good in the right circumstances.
If your line for “very good” is “player that can do everything at an elite level” then you have incredibly high standards I guess.
No, it's not even close to that, we are talking about a player who struggles to do core aspects of his play to an above average level.
Thought he was alright last night.
Certainly in the category of the better England performers on the night.
(Others being Trippier, Foden, Stones, Mainoo and Palmer.)
I still think he's not a great DM.
We're still lacking one of them.
Certainly in the category of the better England performers on the night.
(Others being Trippier, Foden, Stones, Mainoo and Palmer.)
I still think he's not a great DM.
We're still lacking one of them.
Yeah they absolutely were, which is exactly why they would be in discussions as all time greats. Really weird players to choose to make an example.
This is how I feel watching England. Every player is worse for Southgate than for the clubs. The common denominator is Southgate, a poor coach and poor tactician.
Those aren't core aspects of his play
Rice has the fear and anxiety of Southgate etched into his game. The two go hand in hand. He’s capable of a lot more than he’s showing.
He has been very poor these finals - sideways and backwards only, slows the ball down and shows no leadership.
Is this the same player that we saw at Arsenal?
Plays with Fear.
Is this the same player that we saw at Arsenal?
Plays with Fear.
For his position they should be.
Not really. Are defensive duties a core aspect of Toni Kroos's role?