He's exactly the same, the setup and midfield pairing is just a lot poorer than at Arsenal.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter andersj
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Yes of course, what planet do you live on?
He had the exact same issues at Arsenal when they asked him to play that role
Name me some current CDM except Rodri that can defend like Rice & progress the ball to this standard?
I want atleast 5 examples of this type of CDM from current teams across the world. Not Centre Midfielder's playing in a CDM spot.
Same or more defensive capability as Rice & better ball playing ability than Rice aswell.
For example Camavinga isnt that because he is great on the ball but doesn't have better defensive capacity to Declan Rice to play as a single pivot CDM. Frenkie De Jong is also someone like this, more CM's than CDM.
Stick to CDM's that can play solo in a single pivot, not CM's playing in a CDM role.
I'd like to know some examples.
So by your definition he's not very good?
And i come from the planet where football is a team sport
Obviously not a 100M player but would do a good job for us alongside Mainoo. Better him than Antony IMO, and the goal of our recruitment team should be to find a potentially better player for less.
@giorno mate no disrespect but some of your takes on England's team are a bit strange! 
Why? Rice is a great player being badly coached right now, specifically by being asked to play the one role he isn't very good at. I don't think that's controversial?@giorno mate no disrespect but some of your takes on England's team are a bit strange!
The other thing that people don't mention is the role of other players in how his game looks.
The Beeb have been highlighting it, it very difficult to pass forward to the likes of Kane and Bellingham when they are too static, sitting between 2 banks of 4 with very little intensity in their movement, either coming short or running in behind.
You listen to Neville & Keane talk about it on The Overlap, as players they would judge forwards they played with not in their finishing, but on how available they were to receive passes when they lifted their head up, short or long, it would make their job a whole lot harder if forwards don't do this. That's why Shearer was fawning over Watkins when he came on in an earlier game and England created a good chance with his running in behind.
England's main problem I see again is that squeezing in their most talented players, Kane, Bellingham and Foden actually might cause more issues than it solves. For any England fan, does that sound familiar?
He doesn’t hide at Arsenal. Even if he fails, he’ll make the attempt and he’ll also show for the ball. Basically, he doesn’t play with fear for his club. It might be perceived as conservative or pragmatic, but it’s not fear, not my eye, anyway. I’ve not seen Rice actively hide for his club.
Why would he not be? I don't follow?
Arteta briefly tried him in that DM ball progressing role and he had the same issues with passing that he has for England. Too conservative, didn't take risks. He's limited in those situations and doesn't trust his passing enough. You are right that he at least didn't hide from the ball - though I don't think he's been doing that for England either, to be honest - but then Arsenal are a much better coached team plus the stakes are lower
England have been a mess so far
You said this about Rice
And Kroos is terrible defensively
But I didn't say that though, you are trying to put words in my mouth.
You cannot sacrifice that much ability with the ball for better defence, that's a very very typical British thing to do.
Bruno Guimaraes
Aurelien Tchouameni
Eduardo Camavinga
Martin Zubimendi
Yves Bissouma
Moisés Caicedo
Sandro Tonali
I don't have a huge worldly knowledge of all DMs, best I could do off the top of my head.. I gave extra in case you disagree about their position since you like to limit it as much as possible.
Only because of his age, hence why he's retiring at the end of the Euro, when he is was younger he wasn't.
Every Madridista would rip off your arms to swap Tchouameni for Rice. Who cares if some those guys are more complete, or better with the ball? They're worse players! Just get someone good with the ball next to Rice
No, Toni Kroos has always been a subpar defensive player. Good at pressing but absolutely zero awareness or instincts. Why do you think we relied so much on Casemiro all those years???
I would say Tchouameni is the weakest on the list, I nearly didn't include him.
"Just get someone good with the ball next to Rice"
Is not how modern football works, everyone needs needs certain minimum ability on the ball, passing and build up is everyone's job.
Rice is a weakness in every team he's in, even though he's very good defensively.
They haven't relied on him for defence, it's always been a team thing, Kroos did defend well for Germany, Bayern, and RM.
Like most players the team structure needs to support a players strengths to get the best out of them.
Kind of like Casemiro he's good on the ball, but not elite as the first recipient in midfield so optimising your progression isn't as straightforward but good coaches will set their team up well and he is a very good player with few real weaknesses.
Arsenal have one. Thomas Partey.
Only really Bissouma, Tchoumeni and Caicedo are true CDM that can hold the line by playing by themselves. I'd say Rice is easily better than all 3.
Players like Camavinga, Tonali & Bruno Guimeres all play in a CM midfield 3 that shift all the work across their midfield.
For example,
Camavinga played alongside Kroos & Valdevre, Bruno Guimeres played with Longstaff & Anderson when Tonali got banned because Tonali plays as a deep lying playmaker - not a CDM that provides the defensive ability of someone likes Rice.
We couldn't play
Tonali - Mainoo
Bruno
@UTD
Or
Tonali - Mainoo
Bellingham
@England
There's no defensive stability. To provide that you either have to use players like Valdevre or Connor Gallagher or someone like Fred to provide that defensive engine type of player that goes straight in to tackling the opponents legs rather than a player who sits deep to provide defensive cover.
Thats why
Rice & Gallagher doesn't work for England because both players are too defensive in two different ways to help transition the ball from deep that is possible with players like Kroos, Mainoo, Modric, Camavinga or Tonali. However they need defensive support - either with a player with a high work rate like Gallagher, Longstaff, Valvedre etc or someone like Rice or Casemiro that provides central defensive blockage all by themselves.
For england:
Mainoo- Rice
Bellingham
Creativity comes from Mainoo's short passes & dribbles dictating play or
Bellingham - Rice
Foden
Where the main creativity comes from Foden playing centrally.
England haven't played either during a full 90 mins & basically have no creativity in their midfield.
That's not Rice's fault and it's just poor management.
@giorno
Is Tchouameni looking like a player that Madrid might sell if we were interested this summer? Or will you be happy giving him more time to develop?
"Rice is a weakness in every team he is in" is a massively sweeping statement to be honest.
Not a chance Partey defends as well as Rice nowadays, and it's not even close unfortunately now his legs look gone.
Well he can play a 6 better than Rice still though, which is why Rice got moved out of that position for a legs gone Partey.
National teams are often full off cases where the manager is fitting a square peg into a round hole. It is possible, but often there is a better option even if the player has a lower profile. This is a continuous and endless problem with International football which is why the product on the pitch is often not great.
This is more of the same. There are a bunch of players, I question in this lineup along those lines, including Kane and Saka. The current mix isn't right and gelling and mixing time is now completely over.
This is more of the same. There are a bunch of players, I question in this lineup along those lines, including Kane and Saka. The current mix isn't right and gelling and mixing time is now completely over.
I'm not disagreeing, I am just saying there is a minimum standard for core aspects of a position.
You absolutely could play those midfields, Tonali is a very good player, he is defensively strong.
They are all CDMs, just because they are flexible doesn't change anything.
The problem I have is pigeon holeing these guys into 6's and 8's, as it suggests Partey stays as the deepest midfielder and Rice stays as the most advanced, but it's more interchangeable than that.
It was very similar to Portugal played last night with Joao Neves and Paulinha, where at times Neves was deeper to help build up, but at other times Paulinha was deepest to help guard the defence.
It's more just about having a balance of skills, 1 stronger physically that can cover more ground, and 1 that has a better progressive range in build up. That's the player England need to get right.
For most of this season, almost everyone on Caf were complaining that United should've tried to get him instead of Cademiro. Suddenly he became this limited player.
There is only one problem here, Southgate.
There is only one problem here, Southgate.
Thats because Rice can't play on his own. Partey was still a top player before Rice came to Arsenal and was managing on his own holding the midfield.
The reason Arsenal need both is because Rice is not capable in possession of building up play, on the half turn or playing line breaking passes.
City with Rodri play with 1 because he is capable of that.
His pass to Foden was a line breaking pass, even though Foden was offside. It's not a regular feature of Rice's game but he can play those passes and did so for us last season a fair bit
That's not how I would have phrased it but it amounts to the same thing. Southgate can't set this team up for success and doesn't know how to maximize the players he has. Starting TAA in midfield was a woefully bad idea and none of the front 4-5 players look remotely as good as they have for their clubs because he's just cramming names on the team sheet. England has just looked really poor this whole tournament which is somewhat of a remarkable achievement in mediocrity considering how well the players performed this season including Rice who was one of our most important players all season and will be next season.
IS that why Arteta changed it and introduced a passer in midfield?
Arteta tinkered with tactics for a while before finding the best mix. It's not as simple as you make it out because another big factor was how Havertz did not look great in the midfield role Arteta originally had him pegged for. And Partey is broken down now, not a viable option moving forward except maybe as an emergency stand in.
Yeah when you look at Arsenal options in midfield the Havertz conundrum forced his hand a bit. He didn't impress in midfield and ended up doing okay as a false 9. Once Havertz was out of the equation for a midfield spot, it then became an option to bring in either Jorginho/Partey and push Rice a bit higher or to start ESR/Fabio Viera and leave Rice as the number 6. Even if you completely ignore Rice from the equation, Jorgino and Partey are more experienced and more reliable players (when fit). It will be interesting to see if Arsenal sign a midfielder this summer and see what Arteta's approach will be, as I think that will indicate how he views Rice.
Rice is absolutely a 100m player and a top 3 most important player for one of the best club sides in the world...but some people on Redcafe don't rate him because 1. he's English 2. he doesn't look like a world beater in a dysfunctional England setup?
Yeah, I get Arsenal fans saying Havertz didn't work however; he had 2 players in the squad that play the advanced 8, ESR and Viera, neither were tried because he wanted a better DLP. Initially, it was Jorginho who came in, then Partey when fit.
I rate Declan Rice as a player but I dont think he has it at the moment to play the role of picking the ball on th ehalf turn
3. because he has strong limitations for a player in his position which have been covered extensively and comprehensively by people discussing in good faith in this thread.
As others have said, it's a bit more complex than that. If it was just a straight swap for Partey out, Rice in and you can do a direct comparison it would be easier to quantify. However, Partey played with an inform Zinchenko and Xhaka to help him build up play, Rice had at times Kiwior / Tomiyasu and Havertz.
It will be interesting to see what midfielder we buy this summer, and also Timbers role, as i think he was bought to help with build up, but also offer more defensive recovery than Zinchenko does.
What are those limitations?