But this stat was not just measuring how often teams put him under pressure.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter andersj
- Start date
But this stat was not just measuring how often teams put him under pressure.
The statistics is about how often the player is pressured whilst passing the ball. Style affects this more than team. A Rodri thanks to being naturally a deep lying playmaker will always have higher numbers above the norm Whilst the likes of Henderson at Pool or Rice would have their numbers slightly affected by the team style because the are more of box to box/ball winner types. But its doubtful by more than 3 percentage points
Its hard to dispute this
He would be a significant down grade on what Xhaka adds to Arsenal as an 8. For Arsenal he'd be the perfect alternative to Partey. He'd even be an excellent wing man for a Jorginho. Or if Partey was allowed to be more attacking like his A.M days.
I never said as an 8.
I said playing with Joriginho when Partey is out, or replacing Xhaka when Partey is in.
Specifically citing that they need more defensive robustnuss
It measuring how accurate your passing is under pressure during the build up of your team. I fully expect a natural deep lying playmaker to be at the top of the numbers list regardless of who they play for. With the box to box types just below them if they are in excellent teams. Then the ones in really poor teams to be around the center of the graphic and slightly above.
Last edited:
West Ham have an option to extend the contract till 2025 though.
That sucks then
Fair enough. My point is though he can't offer what a Xhaka does. He'd instead just be a second 6 alongside partey. Xhaka meanwhile offers defensive robustness whilst operating as an 8.
I don't think Xhaka offers enough defensive robustness and I think they can adjust the side for this
De jong played 6 at barca though & didnt replace busquets quite well. Rice tends to attack box to box than he defends that way imo. He is better at shielding the defenders whilst sitting in front of them. I want de jong to have the freedom to roam whilst rice eats attacks up & recycles possesion whilst occasionaly pressing or joining in on an attack. Let De jong be the more mobile version of our pirlo whilst Rice does the dirty work of gattuso whilst it is the opposite version who may be more static. Having a guarding cdm may get us that ability for a cafu to really get forward to.
Agreed, De Jong is the type of player you want influencing the play as often as possible.
I think he can. I think you seen glimpses of the game against Utd that he can be a 2 way player. He can drive forward and get into the box, and he has the engine to get back and defend transitions better than Xhaka.
I don't think anyone could envisage Xhaka playing as well as he has this season in his new role, I don't see why Rice couldn't do the same.
I personally believe we need Caicedo more than Rice ..although I wouldn't say no to having both. I am not convinced Rice would fit in. His positioning isn't great either and he is not terribly quick to make up for that. I think he might highlight our existing problems further...tough to say. I like the way he drives with the ball forward and he is pretty good for a big guy with the ball at his feet in tight spaces....one of those transfers Id be happy to see happen or probably could easily move on from. Not cheap either of course.
Thought he was excellent against us. Would prefer De Jong though.
Always liked the player but the £100m plus price tag is a joke. English tax at its finest. He should never of signed a long term contract to the club. Just like Kane it’s hindering any transfer move.
You are completely conflating box to box runs with creativity. Xhaka offers creative passing and robustness further up the pitch. Not to mention goal threat. Nothing about Rice's play against us shows he can do that. If Arsenal were to get him the gain in defensive robustness in transitions would not compensate for the loss in creativity further upfield. Unless Partey instead took up the Xhaka role.
That is where you are mistaken. Xhaka both in his time in the bundesliga and for his national team has played that role effectively for years. At Arsenal he was never able to show it till now because he didn't have anyone as good as a fit Partey or the calmness of Jorginho to allow him the freedom he has had to do it this term.
Rice in comparison has NEVER shown the propensity to be a creative passer. Instead he has shown himself to have the potential to be an elite ball career.
Last edited:
The thing is ETH never used De Jong at 6 the way barca use Busquets. He had a proper roaming Libero role. Whilst Schone was the one stationed in the center either winning the ball high or in front of the center backs. Its basically the role he currently gets Casemiro to play for us right now. Which in my humble opinion is tailor made for a player of Rice's attributes. Rice in a partnership with De Jong under ETH would basically be used as the guy who FDJ recycles the ball off of to be free to roam. Be it high up the pitch or lower. And during attacks De jong would start deeper. Then during defensive transitions Rice would be the one deeper shielding the two center backs.
A well above average midfielder but way overrated by the British hype machine.
I hate to be that guy that posts a YouTube video, so apologies in advance for that, but you don't see any creative passing in amongst this? You don't see the potential to be more of a goal threat if he's allowed to get into more positions up the field?
All this is just me guessing that Arteta sees him as an 8, for all I know it's actually Partey's position that would be under threat.
Last edited:
Could see us signing him if we don't get CL.
Xhaka was played out of position/wrong role most of his Arsenal career. And for somebody who has been captain wherever he goes he is a poor leader and terrible at organizing the midfield. We had massive issues before Partey came. It's kinda sad the fans were so rough on him when he just was really mismanaged. That said we can probably find an upgrade and also the Partey of the last few weeks is extremely replaceable.
These are just a collection of clips curated to make him look good. I've watched 90 minutes games of his more times than I can count. He will never be an 8. He will never be able to offer what a Xhaka does higher upfield and its not a slight on his ability. It'd just a fact. He is simply a progressive robust 6 like Casemiro.
As for Arteta targeting him. He will be in the UCL next season. He rightly wants to enhance the quality and depth of his midfield tactical options. He adds a Rice, he can comfortably rest Partey. He can rest Partey and Xhaka and lose nothing in midfield because he has Jorginho too. He could even rest all 3 and play Odegaard and Smith Rowe/Vieira either side of a Rice. At tough away grounds in Europe he could go proper defensive and double shield his defence with Partey and Rice. Without losing the ability to keep the ball. Rice would obviously be a very good buy for him.
I'd day even more so for a Pool if they could afford him. Because I think he'd suit Klopp ball the best.
Last edited:
Why are we still talking about signing him
Yeah, i guess why i wanted them both before is that they could kind of play the same position in 2 different ways kind of in a sync depending on what was needed. If we had possesion de jong can be the deeper creator and as he starts to roam, rice & de jong kind of switch positions incase we lose possesion. Rice then switches to the deepest player giving de jong & fullbacks the freedom to get forward an attack, whilst rice turns in to the temporary 3rd cb that eats attacks for de jong to start again. On the opposite side, during both in an attack & i guess a defense , de jong glides across the pitch with his progressive passes and progressive dribbles - whilst rice is busting a gut getting from one box to another. I just believe even if we turn to a proper possesion based team that we wouldnt loose the ability to play counter football anyway because we would have for so long. I just think rice & de jong would have been the right balance for that perfect sync of both. A possesion team deadly if they ever got a chance for a counter.
Well just need to agree to disagree about Rice's potential ability to play the 8 role well. It might all well be a moot point anyway, as I don't see Arsenal going anywhere near West Ham's supposed £120M asking price if they stick to that. I agree with you on the tactical flexibility it would offer though.
By that logic Carrick should have been an 8.
What you are describing isn't a possession style of football. Also why would you rather Rice higher up the pitch in attacking positions over De Jong?
People seem to be going bananas over his performance against us when it’s our attacker and GK that cost us the game and in midfield we mostly controlled things. Rice suits Ole and Jose’s United more than he does Arsenal and City. He’s not poor on the ball but he doesn’t have any real quality in his passing or higher footballing intelligence / vision. He’s a tidy player who can break things up and make the odd forward run.
Personally I don’t think he’s what we need at all. This team needs playmakers who dictate the game or have the quick feet to beat a press and carry us forwards far more than a box to box / all action sort.
Personally I don’t think he’s what we need at all. This team needs playmakers who dictate the game or have the quick feet to beat a press and carry us forwards far more than a box to box / all action sort.
If I was declan rice I’d see my contract out and leave for nothing. They will end up pricing him out of a move asking for 100+player or 120million. It’s clear he is ready to leave and is good enough for a top 4 club but realistically is anyone going to pay that for him?
I don't believe they would block his move this summer , most probably deal would done for 60 m guaranteed and 15 m add ons .
they want 120mil for him or 100mil + player. Moyes has come out multiple times and said he will be very very expensive. No chance he goes for 60mil
I don’t. I prefer rice sitting deep and de Jong going forward in possesion - but it was more that I was trying to show him that they could swap and play the way he said Ajax played under Ten Hag.
I don’t think Schone & rice are similar even if they could do each other’s job. Schone playing like Rice or Rice playing like Schone wouldn’t get the best out of each other.
And again - De Jong couldn’t replace Busquets whilst I think Rice is more suited to that type of role in the Premier League.
It’s something I wanted to talk about - the hype of Ten Hag’s Ajax squad pre transfer & how it kind of eases off post transfer shows how Ten Hag was able to get the best out of of his squad and individual players. The hype of players like De Ligt, De Jong and Van De Beek was unreal at Ajax compared to how it’s now which is still good but not at the same level IMO. The role De Jong could play for Ten Hag at Ajax couldn’t exactly be replicated at Barcelona - ultimately because the tactics weren’t there.
I just think Ten Hag’s ability to improve players could have happened with Rice and he would have used him deeper - using him as his more defensive physical but still able to make a long side pass type of player whilst having De Jong dictating the tempo of the team solely.
We kind of see it with Eriksen & Casemiro. Sometimes Eriksen is deeper playing passes but sometimes it’s Casemiro just doing the defensive duty.
Last edited:
What, the logic that Rice has a fantastic engine, like to drive forward with the ball while having great recovery pace? Are these the things Carrick was best known for?
I think people are too keen to pigeon hole players. An 8 as we are calling them, for Liverpool might have a different role than for Man City for instance. In fact, look at us, Arsenal. We have a 6 holding in Partey. Our LCM and RCM would be described as 2 number 8's, but do 2 different roles.
I watched John Stones in this new hybrid role for City against Leeds, he wasn't just sitting, he was helping build play in and around the box, breaking into the box sometimes being the most advanced midfielder.
Interesting to see opinions on Rice. If city or Arsenal get him it only makes them stronger.
For me he is the perfect signing and would walk into our team, he is a ball winner, has great energy ( which our midfield lacks), he is very underrated on the ball and is a leader ( something our team badly lacks). I'm not basing this on the last game, ive been calling for Rice transfer for last 2 years.
The price puts many people off, i do get it, west ham are massively overpricing him, but for some to say he is not a good player is mental. What abour a cheeky 80 mill + MCT bid...?
Casemiro aint getting any younger and looks disillusioned since his last ban.( I'm sure though he will be fine)
Eriksen liekwise in his 30's and lacks energy in the big games, but would be a good player to rotate for games when we will control possession.
fred,mct just squad players at best and i dont think Sabitzer has done enough to wow us.
The FDJ train has sailed he doesnt want to come here. Cant see us getting Bellingham, Mccallister Liverpool bound, so it leaves Caicedo or Rice as genuine options for us.
IMO Rice would be a great addition
For me he is the perfect signing and would walk into our team, he is a ball winner, has great energy ( which our midfield lacks), he is very underrated on the ball and is a leader ( something our team badly lacks). I'm not basing this on the last game, ive been calling for Rice transfer for last 2 years.
The price puts many people off, i do get it, west ham are massively overpricing him, but for some to say he is not a good player is mental. What abour a cheeky 80 mill + MCT bid...?
Casemiro aint getting any younger and looks disillusioned since his last ban.( I'm sure though he will be fine)
Eriksen liekwise in his 30's and lacks energy in the big games, but would be a good player to rotate for games when we will control possession.
fred,mct just squad players at best and i dont think Sabitzer has done enough to wow us.
The FDJ train has sailed he doesnt want to come here. Cant see us getting Bellingham, Mccallister Liverpool bound, so it leaves Caicedo or Rice as genuine options for us.
IMO Rice would be a great addition
Moyes could talk as much as he wants it's the money man who would decide No chance they would risk the scenario where Rice could be so fed up by their antics that he might decide to run down his contract and they end with zilch .
He is leaving this summer and it won't be anywhere near 100 m you can quote me on that .
But having a great engine is not necessary for an 8, nor is driving forward with the ball, Xavi didn't have standout of either for example. There is nothing to show he would be anything but an average 8, but he has shown things to be a good 6.
I'm not sure he would make City's or Arsenal's first 11.
Surely not City. For Arsenal he wont be an upgrade on Partey in that lone 6 role. He could maybe play that Stones type hybrid role for Arsenal if required. Also there are indications he could play the Xhakha role but I am not convinced yet.
The CM market is going to be pretty hot this summer with many good options
Rice / Bellingham / Caicedo / Lavia / Onana / Zubimendi + many others likely to move + the domino effect these will create.
CF market is going to be very small with Bayern / Chelsea / ManUtd / PSG(maybe) / Spurs(maybe if Kane moves) all looking for elite Strikers.