Easily.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I think it's probably 50/50 who will do better.
I think Rice gets significantly overrated.
Hmm I'd love to believe it but so many players who do well abroad fail in the Prem that I can't buy into 50/50.
I'm not negative about Ugarte but we already 100% know that Rice is a good defensive midfielder in the Premier league. To be 50/50 we would have to be 100% sure on Ugarte which I don't think we can be.
That 2nd yellow was ridiculous, no way someone should be getting sent off for that. And the kick he got from the Brighton player was outrageous too, no way anyone should be getting away with deliberately kicking a player like that.
If thr question is would he mskr out starting XI the answer is "easily".He'd be our best player.
Yeah, this is the common sense interpretation of those events. The game would be better if referees erred on the side of not sending off players for inconsistently applied rules related to fundamentally minor infractions. Its like giving a player a second yellow for taking too much time on a throw in or surrounding the referee to protest a decision or run of the mill dissent or making the card motion to request a card for an opponent. Giving a second yellow for all of these things is just bad judgement and usually a referee (or refereeing association) trying to make some kind of statement.
And this is also why arguments that invoke the "letter of the law" like its sacred are always stupid. There are no games in which the letter of the law is consistently applied, and for good reason. Each team would end the game with seven players having also received like 3-4 penalties for fouls in the box on corners. Every game involves a ton of subjective decisions in which the referee must determine how and whether the "letter of the law" should actually be applied and given that reality, the best guidance for the good of the sport is that referees should try to avoid becoming the main character and putting their thumbs massively on the scale when they really don't need to.
There are certain instances where refs decide to clamp down on things that they usually let go.
It's always annoying and not really the players fault but you can't really complain too much about it.
The thing to focus on is that officiating in this country is horribly inconsistent.
If only we could somehow know what a double pivot of Rice - Mainoo would look like in a 4-2-3-1 system with Luke Shaw at LB, an out of form player on the left side of the attack, an in form player on the right side of attack, a number 10 who wants to be a number 8, 10 and 9 at the same time, managed by a decent but far from top level pedigree coach with the charisma of a potato peeler, oh wait…
Yeah, this happens at the beginning of every season. But its a bad practice as they usually give up after a few weeks and stop clamping down on it, which is a big source of the inconsistency you mention. And so its really one or two teams that get made example and pay the price. It would be nice if it was City for once.
That's fair. But if he transfers his skills well over here.
Oh I don't think he would be our best player at all, maybe top 5.
Who would you list as our 3 best players out of interest?
For me Bruno is number 1 by quite a lot then you're looking at who's in form.
To me Bruno is notably ahead of Rice then it's probably fair to imagine that he would be number 2 based on quality and availability.
Yes and then we would see if anyone looked out of their depth.
The player goes to kick the ball and Rice nudges the ball out the way mid-swing and so Rice ended up eating the kick instead.
It somehow took the commentators about 20 replays too to see that's what happened.
The second yellow was completely justified. Players pull that all the time and its irritating. It's an obvious yellow and he'd already been booked so he can only blame himself.
Arsenal seem convinced that the refs have it out for them based on that statement last year and Arteta's over the top whinging but they'd be mad if the same call wasn't made against an opposition player too.
Arsenal seem convinced that the refs have it out for them based on that statement last year and Arteta's over the top whinging but they'd be mad if the same call wasn't made against an opposition player too.
He's definitely overrated as he's an England player. Whenever any English player does well at a club outside the top 4 or 5, the media starts to campaign for them to leave (e.g. Rice, Grealish, Kane) by hyping them to be more and more. That said, I think he's still really good, just not as good as Rodri.
What were the commentators claiming happened?
They seemed to think the Brighton player had randomly booted Rice for no reason and was lucky to get away with it.
Then after 10 minutes the commentator floated the idea that maybe he actually meant to kick the ball and that's why he got away with it. But then Ally McCoist was somehow trying to refute that claim by saying the Brighton player had no intention of playing a pass to a team mate and was just trying to get Rice booked, which is true, but irrelevant in the context of whether he was trying to kick the ball or to kick the player. It was just bizarre.
He was trying to kick the ball and get Rice booked for being too close to the ball. The fact Rice ended up nudging the ball away is hilarious.
Weird. I noticed it watching the highlights straight away but maybe it was just the angle. Either way, I've no idea how they didn't see it on the very first replay.
I actually like Ally McCoist as a commentator. I've no idea if he's good or not but he is more interesting than most of them.
Definitely one of those decisions that if its applied 100% consistently with every ref throughout the season, its fair. But if it's not, it's a pretty unfair, potentially corrupt considering it was Oliver, decision.
Nah. Veltman could easily have pulled out of the kick, the ball is gone before his kicking leg even begins moving forward and these are top athletes who are used to changing a kick at that point all the time. The kick itself is much higher than ball level, which you can see very clearly on the angle in the tweet below. And he’s appealing to the ref with raised arms practically before he’s finished. He knew exactly what he was doing. He saw the opportunity to kick Rice, make an incident, and took it.
Whatever one thinks about Rice getting a second yellow for poking the ball away, Veltman should have been sent off for violent conduct.
Last edited:
As an Arsenal fan I agree, last season he was overrated. Of course he's a very good player but for £105m, he didn't sufficiently impact our playing style.
Always viewed him as a combative 6 or box to box midfielder similar profile to guys like Casemiro, Makalele or Keane. These are all great legendary world class midfielders, but none really excelled in a possession based team.
It was careless of Arteta to sign him for that amount of money. Especially now its clear Rice is even worse at 8 than 6.
Are you kidding? Rice has been well worth the money. If it was Partey sent off we would have kept Brighton scoreless and won
Whats he point of being a 'ball progresser' if you are rubbish out of possesion ad in defence
Arteta has worked so hard to make us a good team out of possession, something we never were in the later Wenger years, and yet we still have criticism.
Ever Since Rice joined. We have conceded only 29 goals in 41 league games.
Hopefully you dont learn a hard lesson in our match to Spurs in which Rice will be suspended.
Not for me. Rice deserved that. He had no business interfering in Brighton's free kick.
They were both trying to mug off the ref and both trying to get the other one sent off (see the way Rice rolled around on the ground). They both saw the opportunity. Yellow each would have been the fair outcome. I don't think this is a red where the side of Veltman's leg connects with the side of Rice's - it's not like he's followed through and planted his studs onto Rice with force.
They can't even get it consistent within a single game though. Dalot booked twice in 10 seconds for "dissent" last year with Nunez wasn't booked for screaming in the referees face or booting the ball away. Casemiro 4 match ban for touching Will Hughes' collar.
It was hardly ‘kicking the ball away’ folks. He’s barely touched it and it rolls about a metre.
By that logic, the Brighton player kicked the ball at Rice and should be booked again.
It was a petty squabble in the corner of the pitch. The refs had a nightmare.
By that logic, the Brighton player kicked the ball at Rice and should be booked again.
It was a petty squabble in the corner of the pitch. The refs had a nightmare.
Not really, considering Rice stood over the ball and kicked the ball away. He shouldn't have been there in the first place and it's on him to get out the way. If you want to insert yourself into that situation (which is illegal by the laws of the game, hence the yellow), you can't then complain if you get kicked.
What even is his best position/trait?
- Not really a destroyer or a ball playing midfielder at No.6.
- Not secure enough to receive between the lines.
- His shooting is inconsistent at best.
- Decent in the air I suppose but nothing that stands out.
I don't get the hype with him. The world class shouts are way far off for me.
- Not really a destroyer or a ball playing midfielder at No.6.
- Not secure enough to receive between the lines.
- His shooting is inconsistent at best.
- Decent in the air I suppose but nothing that stands out.
I don't get the hype with him. The world class shouts are way far off for me.
Shouldn’t have been there is very silly to say if you have seen the situation, seeing as Veltman kicks the ball up to Rice, who is in fact walking away with his back to the ball when Veltman kicks the ball towards him (and why? To steal a few yards?). He can’t be anywhere else.
Rice sees the ball only a split second, and doesn’t even kick it, he merely twists his ancle to deflect the ball away from himself, a yard to the side. If Veltmann had kicked the ball up to him from behind and kicked the ball into him full power at point blank range, it would have been a clear yellow. If you think Veltman is not really intending to play the ball, but rather get a kick in on Rice, it is a blatant red card comoletely irrespective of wether Rice should have been there or not.
To me, it is very ovious that Veltman doesn’t care about the ball, he intends to kick Rice, and should have been sent of regardless.
The yellow to Rice is also completely stupid, and was probably the least cardable ‘interference with the taking of a free kick’ among the probably 100 or so other similar incidents that weekend, neither whom received a yellow, far less a red.
That's fine, but there were similar profiles available for £30M. Because we setup to dominate the ball; we need adept technical players to pass and turn. Especially the 6 given build up patterns.
Literally could have bought Fofana and McAllister for a combined £70m last season. Our midfield would look more balanced.
Said it at the time we should've went for Rice in 2022 instead of Casemiro.
A top midfielder and has his best years ahead of him. Also a leader.
A top midfielder and has his best years ahead of him. Also a leader.
In terms of playing out and building play, he wouldn't of offered anything. Defensively of course, because he's tenacious.
It's difficult forming a winning possession based system with these type midfielder
HIs defensive work is very good, but he doesn't have much beyond it.
Tbf in their system it’s not a big issue if one of Partey/Jorginho play alongside him since either one + Odegaard are capable of creating, I can’t be convinced that it’s worth paying 100m for that though.
There are games where Arsenals midfield does struggle though, when they don't the ball well enough from that deeper position.
Always amazing how football tribalism can lead otherwise good posters to spout total horseshit.
Indeed.
Not really, the ball hits him and he's literally looking at the ball and decides to kick it. If he's not aware Veltman is trying to take a quick free kick, that is on him if he decides to kick it away. If he had just walked away from the ball, he'd have been fine, as soon as he goes towards it, it's on him.
Doesn't matter, it's a free kick to the other team, why is he kicking the ball? I think Veltman is clearly trying to play the ball, Rice is not allowed to kick the ball after the foul has been given, so why should Veltman think Rice is going to kick it?
Veltman obviously cares about the ball, because he's trying to demonstrate Rice is stopping him taking a quick free kick. Again, Rice shouldn't be touching the ball in that scenario and as soon as he does, puts himself in trouble.
It's harsh, but so are a lot of other yellows in the league and he was stupid enough to give a ref the opportunity to give him a second yellow.
Well thank you for calling me an otherwise good poster
. It's not horseshit though, it's just stupid from Rice and doesn't need to do it, or at least he should be far cuter about delaying the restart than kicking it. If he just walks away he likely doesn't get booted.