I agree with this, he saw what he was doing.Not really, the ball hits him and he's literally looking at the ball and decides to kick it. If he's not aware Veltman is trying to take a quick free kick, that is on him if he decides to kick it away. If he had just walked away from the ball, he'd have been fine, as soon as he goes towards it, it's on him.
Doesn't matter, it's a free kick to the other team, why is he kicking the ball? I think Veltman is clearly trying to play the ball, Rice is not allowed to kick the ball after the foul has been given, so why should Veltman think Rice is going to kick it?
Veltman obviously cares about the ball, because he's trying to demonstrate Rice is stopping him taking a quick free kick. Again, Rice shouldn't be touching the ball in that scenario and as soon as he does, puts himself in trouble.
It's harsh, but so are a lot of other yellows in the league and he was stupid enough to give a ref the opportunity to give him a second yellow.
Well thank you for calling me an otherwise good poster. It's not horseshit though, it's just stupid from Rice and doesn't need to do it, or at least he should be far cuter about delaying the restart than kicking it. If he just walks away he likely doesn't get booted.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Michael Oliver, say no more...
It wasn't Oliver I thought?
You're right, it wasn't. Not sure what that poster meant.
Ah if it wasn't Oliver my mistake, I thought it was.
Same point applies though, this is a decision that needs to be applied consistently to be fair, otherwise its unfair reffing for whatever reason.
Same point applies though, this is a decision that needs to be applied consistently to be fair, otherwise its unfair reffing for whatever reason.
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Whoosh
I don't think deliberately kicking the ball away is one they've rented consistent with, and it's a bit hypocritical to use the consistency argument in situations where the player has tried to deliberately mislead the officials.
Rice tried to be sneaky and it didn't work. On another day he might have gotten away with it but the fact he didn't is on him, not the referee/VAR.
I didn't think there was much to debate about it. Rice made a massive tit of himself thinking he was being smart and the ref didn't go for it. Only contentious part was whether Veltman needed to swipe at the ball that hard unless he was going for Rice anyway. Buy even that is down to Rice being an idiot as if he had just left the ball and Felt man kicked him anyway then Veltman might have got a red instead..
Precisely and it will forever be an if because Rice did what he did. It's completely subjective whether Veltman intended to kick him or not, Rice kicking the ball away it objectively an infringement and you're leaving it up to the discretion of a prem ref, who've been inconsistent since god knows when.
I read through the post sequence again, who you answered etc. People you answered were making two claims: 1. Veltman should be under consideration for a direct red for deliberately kicking an opponent. 2. Giving Rice a second yellow card for deliberate sabotage was an extremely harsh decision to the point of being simply wrong.Not really, the ball hits him and he's literally looking at the ball and decides to kick it. If he's not aware Veltman is trying to take a quick free kick, that is on him if he decides to kick it away. If he had just walked away from the ball, he'd have been fine, as soon as he goes towards it, it's on him.
Doesn't matter, it's a free kick to the other team, why is he kicking the ball? I think Veltman is clearly trying to play the ball, Rice is not allowed to kick the ball after the foul has been given, so why should Veltman think Rice is going to kick it?
Veltman obviously cares about the ball, because he's trying to demonstrate Rice is stopping him taking a quick free kick. Again, Rice shouldn't be touching the ball in that scenario and as soon as he does, puts himself in trouble.
It's harsh, but so are a lot of other yellows in the league and he was stupid enough to give a ref the opportunity to give him a second yellow.
Well thank you for calling me an otherwise good poster
You seem to think that wether Rice could have done better is revant to either claim, but isn’t. What is relevant to the first claim is if Veltman wanted to kick an hit Rice for any reason whatsoever. If you think he’d be justified in kicking an opponant because the opponent was sabotaging play, you’d be wrong. If you see those pictures rerun and think Veltman was only trying to play the ball and nothing else, you seem to have different footage than me and a good few others.
As for 2), wether it’s ridiculously harsh to send Rice off, it’s not enough that he could have been smarter or has some fault himself. The ref must judge that he is deliberately sabotaging play enough for it to warrant a yellow card. Seeing as it results in a red, he should be extra certain that his evaluation is correct. It is not enough to conclude that Rice had some negative impact on the speed of play. Seeing as some sort of bickering about the ball, touching the ball, being less than nine yards off the ball happens 10-20 times every single game, and only a percentage of them lead to yellow cards, giving a red for one of the most unclear an inocuous of them is blatantly very bad refereeing.
Points like Rice could have avoided it is irrelevant to wether the refereeing is bad or not, as the threahold for awarding yellow and red cards is not about wether any player is blameless or not, but about wether what he dud warranted the said card or not.
Does he?
He definitely doesn't, he is just saying it's a harsh decision, but if you're smart you don't put yourself in trouble, because referees can and will inflict harsh punishments.
And that's after explaining why he thinks the yellow is warranted.
Yes, sorry. I did realise that when trying to respond, there were actually two separate points. Thank you for splitting them out.
You're implying he's just kicking him without any context, there's obvious context why Veltman did kick him and you have no idea of his intentions. He's not justified in kicking him, but it's an obvious potential outcome. If a goalkeeper is going to take a goal kick and I run up and kick the ball just before he kicks, if the goalkeeper wallops me, I wouldn't expect the goalkeeper to be sent off.
There's no threshold of sabotaging play enough, delaying the restart is enough for a yellow. The fact that he's on a yellow doesn't mean anything either. It's more bad game management than refereeing, because he applies the law correctly.
Yep and I don't even think that inconsistent when it comes to kicking the ball away/trying to cheat to get an opponent carded. Most prem refs will book you for that if they see it and correctly so. It'd be weak refereeing not to.
No worries. I apologize for overcooking my arguments as well.
I didn’t say there was no context, though, just that the context is irrelevant if the kick (or rather - hitting Rice) is deemed to be deliberate. No one can certainly know about intentions, and yet they are in fact the basis of a referees judgement in many decisions, and should be. You provide the example yourself: The GK that kicks you doesn’t get sent of for kicking you, because it was clearly not his intention to kick you. If, however, you take the ball ahead of him, and he stops for half a second, and then kicks you, he is rightfully sent of by me, and the difference isn’t the kicking, the hitting, the pain, or your level of hazardousness when nicking the ball, but simply my evaluation about his intention when kicking. Lots of football rules demand the referee to make evaluations of intentions. Some of the most malfunctioning rules are those that try too hard to avoid it (see hand ball rules). IMO. And when I see Veltman in that repetition, rolling the ball (unintentionally) onto Rice, from behind, seeing the ball hit him as much as he hits it, and apparently increasing his speed just that second to be in full explosion when he hits, I don’t for a second consider that he doesnmt wanna hit Rice as hard as he can. I might be wrong, as all evaluations about deliberation can be, but I trust my evaluation enough to say (with the help of repeated views) I think it is deliberate and warrants a red card. This is my reading, but the main point is that I must judge deliberation either way.
On the other decision, I find it surprising that you say there is no threshold for interfering with starting play too much. Just in the same highlights, I saw three counts of holding the ball a few extra seconds, throwing the ball a few yards the wrong way and deliberately standing in the way of the ball for the free kick to be delayed. All of them deliberately sabotaging play, none of them ‘enough’ to trigger a talking to even, much less a yellow card. It is the same for holding. No ref ever whistles for more than a percentage of holdings - even when there is a supposed crack-down on it, and if one of them started out of nowwhere he would award fifteen penalties and four red cards in one half of football. Some would say that would put an end to holdings, but I say that ref would not ref in the PL again. The norm amd the majority is that neither delaying play nor holding is judged in a literal manner, and nobody wants it that way, including the ref’s. They take the most blatant ones, and players know and expect this, and it would be unfair to give two pens to Liverpool for slight tugs while giving United none after three shirts standing like sails in the box. It’s the same with delaying play. To claim otherwise is just not true.
The third point I’d venture is that you in my view use double standards when you claim Veltman verdict would be subjective because viewed by intentions, while Tice delayment is supposedly objective and you take it as a fact he deliberately kicked the ball to delay the free kick. You can’t know that was deliberate anymore than I can know (objectively) Veltman tried to kick the player, theoretically Rice could also twist his foot to protect himself from the ball or instinctively fearing a kick, or just as a reflex when the ball hits his foot from behind. And what is very clear, is that players only get yellow cards for delaying play when it’s viewed as deliberate, intentional. A player trying to reach the ball back to the opponent, but is accidentally tripped up by another player so he loses the ball over the sideline, is not carded for sabotage. It’s subjective evaluation on the part of the ref, and it’s supposed to be, so it makes little sense calling it objective and saying you can’t judge intentions. That’s what the ref do when he cards Rice, and it’s what you do when you call him cheeky or what was the word you used to describe him earlier?
We might well view the situations differently and judge the deliberations and degrees differently, which is fair enough. I stand by that it was a horrible total evaluation by the ref, not many other refs would have done the same, and it changed the game completely. We can all agree Rice and Veltman could have done better, but that doesn’t absolve the ref of his mistake, IMO.
Oh, and last point, saying that a second yellow should always be evaluated in just the same way as the first, is also neither praxis, nor aim of referees, not nor would many like it that way. Many times a ref will give a yellow for consecutive fouls of the same player by different opponent players. The fourth opponent taking Bruno deliberately will get the yellow so to speak for the team, to set and example. Likeways two palyers will get carded after a slight brawl regardless of wether they both were equally overstepping the line. But in both these cases, a ref will not do that if the slight perpetrator is on a yellow. Also, many times the ref will have to make a decision when he is only 55-45 sure what happened, that there was enough contact, that there was intent, that one started and not the other. If a player is on a yellow, a ref wants to be more certain before he awards a new yellow. If he is of a 60-40 mind, he still won’t give it. And rightfully so. Anyone who knows refereeing knows that you can’t always be sure what happened, there is an element of gamble to many decisions. Well, everyone a part from one fellow ref I once knew who always insisted he had never made a single debatable call in all his reffing life. Let’s just say he never refereed above fifth level football in our league, as far as I know anyway. It’s only right to be more scrutinous about your decisions when they have bigger consequences. That is not the same as shying away when you are certain what is the right call.
It was a second yellow.
He toes the ball out of play forcing the play to restart. So the ref only had 1 decision.
It sucks but it's the rules.
As we all know though, it's not the fact that Rice rightfully got sent off, it's the consistency in the decisions made by referees that pisses everyone off. It applies to all games and every club suffers this shit throughout the course of the season.
Just have to move on.
He toes the ball out of play forcing the play to restart. So the ref only had 1 decision.
It sucks but it's the rules.
As we all know though, it's not the fact that Rice rightfully got sent off, it's the consistency in the decisions made by referees that pisses everyone off. It applies to all games and every club suffers this shit throughout the course of the season.
Just have to move on.
No worries, I think they're very thorough - not overcooked.
That is a valid point on refereeing intentions, I wasn't suggesting you're not allowed to do that, but with the context of Veltman trying to take a quick free kick and almost instantly Rice delaying the restart, how can you be sure of his intentions? I understand you point of view on this, but for me the context means I wouldn't be certain of Veltmans intention to kick him. Also, why is the context irrelevant here but you said before the context for Rice's yellow was important?
There's no threshold when the ball is dead, in the oppositions possession and Veltman was literally about to take the quick free kick. There is literally no reason for Rice to touch the ball, so his action is deliberate and I don't see how any of your other points change that.
Not really double standards as my point above. There isn't any need for intention with Rice's action, as he is not entitled to touch the ball at the point it goes dead and is in possession of the other team. Veltman at the very least had the right to take a quick free kick, after that I can understand why you may view his intentions as such, but I don't know how you can be so sure considering Rice kicking the ball muddies the waters. My point about being cute, is that he could be walking away from the ball, making no movement towards the ball, but make it difficult for Veltman to take an accurate quick free kick. As soon as he moves towards the ball and actually touches it, he doesn't have any defence and he gives Veltman a plausible excuse as to why he kicked him.
I think he has managed the game badly and is inconsistent based on what Arsenal fans showed me with Joao Pedro, but that doesn't make the Rice decision wrong. It would make the Joao Pedro decision wrong. It's a bit like the Nani red card against Real Madrid, or the 2 Dalot yellows at Anfield - do they need to be sent off and were there other infringements in the games they didn't punish? no and probably, but can't really complain that the decision is wrong.
On your last paragraph, I don't know how you can really complain about anything then if there's always a gamble on what the refs call, or it's down to the refs discretion. He made a judgement call on the situation and you'd have made a different one, but nothing he did was outside of the laws of the game.
I see your points, and I think we’ve laid the land clear enough by now. We see the incidents differently. I see the incidents very differently from the ref in this case, so differently that I think his evaluations suck. I may be wrong, but clearly I don’t think I am, but he is.
As I side note I don’t think I’ve ever written so much in defence of a Arsenal player. Though I don’t really care about Rice, I jyst get annoyed at the refereeing in this instance. I have a more general fish to fry about the tendency I perceive to try to exchange human judgement with literal rule-following and pure bureaucratic behaviorism. The intolerance of human error leads to ridiculous situations like the constant absurdification of hand ball situations with defenders try to stop M’Bappe and Haaland while running with hands behind their back, strikers no longer aiming for goal if there is a loose arm about etc. I accept the presence of human error, but an important part of that is also to criticize when ugly errors are made in my view, and debate about what is right or good reffing.
Side note two: I certainly thought the Nani red vs Madrid and the Dalot expulsion vs Liverpool were both horrible refereeing decisions, and I’d swear I’d complain on them even if they went in favor of United. IMO.
This is a situation where a Blue card, or whatever colour it would be, would make sense. It would bring more consistency as the ref would not be completely torn making a marginal call. Rice did deserve to get sent off as it stands, but I am sure we will have 50 complaints about consistency in this regard before the end of the season. That is the part that is frustrating here.
We do need to cut all this garbage out of the game, but we need it to be done with consistency. Are they going to do this City, when they do it? Simulation, unsportsmanlike conduct should be rewarded with yellows, even if it means expulsion. Gosh, I hate this international week in particular early on in the season. Pointless internationals, so close to a major tourney. Not much else to talk about!
We do need to cut all this garbage out of the game, but we need it to be done with consistency. Are they going to do this City, when they do it? Simulation, unsportsmanlike conduct should be rewarded with yellows, even if it means expulsion. Gosh, I hate this international week in particular early on in the season. Pointless internationals, so close to a major tourney. Not much else to talk about!
Only just seen this
Rice kicking the ball delays the restart, ref is bang to rights giving him a yellow for it. It's a harsh yellow when it will result in a red and not applied consistently, but Rice can have no complaints.
That said, the ball was rolling so you couldn't take a quick free kick and no one will ever convince me Veltman is that clumsy and didn't just kick out in the heat of the moment taking advantage of the excuse.
Two clear as day yellows.
Rice kicking the ball delays the restart, ref is bang to rights giving him a yellow for it. It's a harsh yellow when it will result in a red and not applied consistently, but Rice can have no complaints.
That said, the ball was rolling so you couldn't take a quick free kick and no one will ever convince me Veltman is that clumsy and didn't just kick out in the heat of the moment taking advantage of the excuse.
Two clear as day yellows.
Games gone soft. Wouldn't get carded for this crap during an intense Arsenal v United game 20 years ago.
Thought he was outstanding against Ireland. Championship level opposition but still.
Absolutely.
He’s an outstanding player. For instance, he would almost single-handedly fix our midfield if he was parachuted in.
Nah he wouldn't fix it. He's dependant on other players around him to look good, but he'd add steel and legs, which we definitely need.
Declan Rice would immediately be our best midfielder by some distance but we would still be lacking in the centre, which says a lot about our issues in there.
We play without a midfield so I doubt he would be able to do much.
Get what you're trying to say, but all that does is move the margin. Also, technical question about the bluecard. What say you're supposed to leave the pitch for 15 mins, what happens if the foul happens inside the last 5 minutes? You only leave the pitch for 5 or does it extend to the next game?
Yes, the last part is a problem to deal with. But as it is, it is kinda wonky as well. An expulsion right now benefits mostly the next team on the schedule.
Think it's safe to say the issue goes beyond our actual midfielders.
Would definitely take Rice in our team though.
Disagree. This isn't crunching tackles but stupid avoidable "smarts" that the players indulged in. Refs have gone soft on the former but you've always had the occasional card-happy ref ruining a game when players act like brats, see Beckham and Simeone.
Agreed, people need to stop this line of 'so and so would immediately fix it' and realise the true reason for our performance is the way the team is set up.
If SAF was still in charge I have no doubt in my mind that Rice would be at United. He just feels like a United player, attitude, professionalism, style, etc. Fergie would have broken bank for him, and he'd have been captain for a decade.
It's been a year and to me he still feels out of place at Arsenal, not knocking his performances, from what I have seen he has played well, but I don't watch Arsenal on the regular, but it just doesn't feel right him being in that team.
It's been a year and to me he still feels out of place at Arsenal, not knocking his performances, from what I have seen he has played well, but I don't watch Arsenal on the regular, but it just doesn't feel right him being in that team.