Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player

Sometimes you pay money not just for the player's ability in the pitch, but how well you think he'd fit in the team, the impact his personality has on the team and how long you think he can do it for. You also take into account whether or not you have other areas of the pitch you can strengthen first.

I think he'll prove to be worth the money.
 
He is a very good player indeed but he is also coming to a well oiled machine. His qualities are very well used in this current Arsenal setup so in a way, he is a perfect compliment or looks like he will be at least. But is he good enough to come to a struggling side like ours and elevate us? I definitely don't think so. The problem here is perception, if you produce a 7 or 8/10 job in a well functioning unit and are an active contributor to said unit, the perception will generally be positive and along the lines of "he does his job, he is exactly what they needed, he is so tidy and adds X, Y and Z". If you deliver the exact same level of performance in a struggling side, the perception will be that he just doesn't do enough and is not enough of a game changer and the focus will shift to all the things he can't do.

The thing is Rice is no different to 99% of footballers nowadays, most of them are system players and can look amazing or average depending on what's around them which explains how we've looked to be a graveyard for footballers for a decade now. Not all of them were/are as average as they look, just like not all the City players are some amazing world beaters regardless of where they play. The individual qualities fluctuate more than ever in the current climate of micro coaching. As for the price tag, trophies and achievements are the only indicator of value at the end of the day. Prices paid are mostly for the expected value added to the overall outcome. If Rice helps Arsenal be a consistent force in the English game over the next 5 years, he will most definitely be worth his price.
 
No I am not acting that it only happens at United.. i am in fact pointing out how it has become a common habit how to write off players. I don't follow enough arsenal media news but I have seen how media and fans have questioned united players after a mere 2 or 3 games. That's why I responded to the poster suggesting the same performance by rice would have been termed an average one here.

No worries. Well you can rest easy now knowing that it happens everywhere.
 
It was a very poor game. There wasn't any drive or tempo in it and it was all about tactics and not going outside any task. A own goal that won the game shows just that.

Statistic for "defensive" players should be pretty good in games like that. Even if I don't look at statistics as something that is important. Because statistic can be misleading. Players like Saliba, Gabriel and Jorginho did brilliantly in central line.

Farqing :lol:

I'm dumber for having read that nonsense.
 
He is a very good player indeed but he is also coming to a well oiled machine. His qualities are very well used in this current Arsenal setup so in a way, he is a perfect compliment or looks like he will be at least. But is he good enough to come to a struggling side like ours and elevate us? I definitely don't think so. The problem here is perception, if you produce a 7 or 8/10 job in a well functioning unit and are an active contributor to said unit, the perception will generally be positive and along the lines of "he does his job, he is exactly what they needed, he is so tidy and adds X, Y and Z". If you deliver the exact same level of performance in a struggling side, the perception will be that he just doesn't do enough and is not enough of a game changer and the focus will shift to all the things he can't do.

The thing is Rice is no different to 99% of footballers nowadays, most of them are system players and can look amazing or average depending on what's around them which explains how we've looked to be a graveyard for footballers for a decade now. Not all of them were/are as average as they look, just like not all the City players are some amazing world beaters regardless of where they play. The individual qualities fluctuate more than ever in the current climate of micro coaching. As for the price tag, trophies and achievements are the only indicator of value at the end of the day. Prices paid are mostly for the expected value added to the overall outcome. If Rice helps Arsenal be a consistent force in the English game over the next 5 years, he will most definitely be worth his price.
Interesting points. So do you think anyone can come in and elevate you? If someone quite proven like Rice can't, what level of player are you looking for? Mbappe? Or is your system (on the pitch and behind the scenes) so broken that no one can look good in it? Genuine questions.
 
You Arsenal fans are soo precious when it comes to your Rice.
We have endured mediocre players for so long that now that we have some top drawer ones, I want to defend them with my life. I'm more protective of Rice than I am of my husband. :lol:
 
It was a stupid comment that deserved derision.
There was nothing stupid about his comment, no idea why you're being so insulting about it. It genuinely was a poor game.

Also, Rice is single-handedly convincing people that a DM should just be adept at blocks and interceptions, and that passes as a "brilliant" game.

The only stupid comments in here are comparisons with Casemiro - they are nothing alike, beyond playing nominally the same position on the pitch. Whether Casemiro is now finished or not (I don't personally believe so, despite his brutal start to the season), he has excelled beyond anything Rice has done in his career to date, and you've got to be blind not to see it.
 
Don't really care what anyone says, Rice has been one of our best players this season.

His energy, leadership, tackling, recovery has all been class and he's actually a very good passer technique wise. He doesn't really have the vision to progress the ball as much as maybe Partey does, but maybe that will come when he gets used to his team mates more and he feels more comfortable taking some risks.
 
The only stupid comments in here are comparisons with Casemiro - they are nothing alike, beyond playing nominally the same position on the pitch. Whether Casemiro is now finished or not (I don't personally believe so, despite his brutal start to the season), he has excelled beyond anything Rice has done in his career to date, and you've got to be blind not to see it.
I don't think anyone was comparing them in terms of what they've achieved in their careers - there's no contest there, obviously, with Case being a legend. But there's a big age gap and Rice is just coming into his best years while Casemiro's may be behind him. What was being compared though were the transfer fees considering the age of each player and where they look to be in their careers. People here have said that perhaps, like Varane, RM only get rid of their (best) players once they think they're on the decline. Not sure if Case is there yet but his performances dropping off a cliff like this has to be pretty worrying.
 
No, not this summer. I'm just trying to dispel the suggestion that Rice was the only value for money purchase. Brighton get pluck one out every year, Baleba seems like he could be the next one.

Perhaps. I'm also not saying the fee for Rice wasn't a bit obscene, you get to those numbers and it all becomes a bit ridiculous to be honest, but i think what @NinjaZombie is correct. We wanted Rice not just because he was a good player in an area of need. It was the total package, the age, the leadership, the personality, the nationality, the experience of the EPL, the room to get even better. The fact that he was ready to come in and basically make an instant impact. We felt it was that package that meant he was worth the overpay on, when with other deals we've been more reluctant to.
 
I don't think anyone was comparing them in terms of what they've achieved in their careers - there's no contest there, obviously, with Case being a legend. But there's a big age gap and Rice is just coming into his best years while Casemiro's may be behind him. What was being compared though were the transfer fees considering the age of each player and where they look to be in their careers. People here have said that perhaps, like Varane, RM only get rid of their (best) players once they think they're on the decline. Not sure if Case is there yet but his performances dropping off a cliff like this has to be pretty worrying.
The stupid comments I was referring to were along the tone of "we should have recruited him for what Case did for half a season", which is incredibly short sighted and frankly pretty stupid. What Case did in "half a season" (more than that, but whatever) is way above anything Rice has shown in his career to date - and he's been playing for quite a few years now. It's also what I'm referring to with regards to the single handedly convincing people that all a DM needs to do is block and intercept. His range as a footballer is limited. He's nothing like Casemiro.

If Casemiro goes through a whole season with this form, the question about recruitment will be worth having (I'll personally still believe it made sense for what he brought to the club in a transitional key season, and I'm less worried now we have Amrabat), but that's about it. And that's not what a lot of people have been saying in here.
 
Compared to the other £100+ million midfielders at Chelsea, I think Rice will probably turn out the most valuable after 5-6 years.
 
Perhaps. I'm also not saying the fee for Rice wasn't a bit obscene, you get to those numbers and it all becomes a bit ridiculous to be honest, but i think what @NinjaZombie is correct. We wanted Rice not just because he was a good player in an area of need. It was the total package, the age, the leadership, the personality, the nationality, the experience of the EPL, the room to get even better. The fact that he was ready to come in and basically make an instant impact. We felt it was that package that meant he was worth the overpay on, when with other deals we've been more reluctant to.
I do agree it is more palatable to overspend on someone like Rice for the reasons you say. I'm not convinced 105m will ever be worth it. As I mentioned in previous posts, I still think you need a proper striker, which will potentially be just as, if not more expensive.
 
There was nothing stupid about his comment, no idea why you're being so insulting about it. It genuinely was a poor game.

Also, Rice is single-handedly convincing people that a DM should just be adept at blocks and interceptions, and that passes as a "brilliant" game.

The only stupid comments in here are comparisons with Casemiro - they are nothing alike, beyond playing nominally the same position on the pitch. Whether Casemiro is now finished or not (I don't personally believe so, despite his brutal start to the season), he has excelled beyond anything Rice has done in his career to date, and you've got to be blind not to see it.

It was a stupid comment. Rice had an excellent game, which was evidenced by the eye test, the stats and his contribution to the result.

Rice was part of a defensive unit that helped keep City to four shots for the entire game, which is their lowest total in years and years. He was tireless.

90% pass accuracy
4 ground duels won
3 interceptions
3 tackles won
2 key passes
2/3 long balls completed
2 clearances and 1 goal line clearance
14 defensive actions

He did exactly what he was supposed to do in order to help us get this win.

I haven't brought Casemiro into this discussion.
 
It was a stupid comment. Rice had an excellent game, which was evidenced by the eye test, the stats and his contribution to the result.

Rice was part of a defensive unit that helped keep City to four shots for the entire game, which is their lowest total in years and years. He was tireless.

90% pass accuracy
4 ground duels won
3 interceptions
3 tackles won
2 key passes
2/3 long balls completed
2 clearances and 1 goal line clearance
14 defensive actions

He did exactly what he was supposed to do in order to help us get this win.

I haven't brought Casemiro into this discussion.
He wasn't excellent, and no one on the pitch on Sunday was. It was a boring game with very little to get excited about.

This kind of overreaction from the Arsenal fans is exactly what some have been criticizing with regards to narrative. He was decent, unremarkable, and professional. But his performance is being branded as brilliant or excellent. It's absurd.
 
He wasn't excellent, and no one on the pitch on Sunday was. It was a boring game with very little to get excited about.

This kind of overreaction from the Arsenal fans is exactly what some have been criticizing with regards to narrative. He was decent, unremarkable, and professional. But his performance is being branded as brilliant or excellent. It's absurd.

Saliba and Gabriel were excellent. Rice was very good.

You and some people seem to think that City were just magically poor and it had nothing to do with our defending by the sounds of it.
 
The stupid comments I was referring to were along the tone of "we should have recruited him for what Case did for half a season", which is incredibly short sighted and frankly pretty stupid. What Case did in "half a season" (more than that, but whatever) is way above anything Rice has shown in his career to date - and he's been playing for quite a few years now. It's also what I'm referring to with regards to the single handedly convincing people that all a DM needs to do is block and intercept. His range as a footballer is limited. He's nothing like Casemiro.

If Casemiro goes through a whole season with this form, the question about recruitment will be worth having (I'll personally still believe it made sense for what he brought to the club in a transitional key season, and I'm less worried now we have Amrabat), but that's about it. And that's not what a lot of people have been saying in here.
"I won't change my mind regardless of how bad Casemiro is this season". Incredibly short sighted indeed.
 
Rice played well in the second half, and was key in helping Arsenal to repel City's attacks. But he was a bit anonymous in the first half, while Saliba and Gabriel were dominant throughout the entire ninety.

Rice was also up against a midfield three of Lewis, Kovacic and Alvarez; a far cry from the midfield triumvirate of De Bruyne, Gundogan and Rodri Arsenal faced last season. It's the type of disjointed unit you would expect Rice to play well against and assert himself over.

All in all, it was a good performance, mainly from a defensive perspective and largely in the second half. Not sure it did anything noticeable to validate his supporters or disprove his detractors. Gabriel and Saliba were far more important in their contributions.
 
He wasn't excellent, and no one on the pitch on Sunday was. It was a boring game with very little to get excited about.

This kind of overreaction from the Arsenal fans is exactly what some have been criticizing with regards to narrative. He was decent, unremarkable, and professional. But his performance is being branded as brilliant or excellent. It's absurd.

Check out the reactions starting at the bottom of the second page of this thread when Fernandinho played against Liverpool at the peak of their powers. This is a player of Rice's profile, but with better passing than Rice has demonstrated. When you think "brilliant" or "excellent" performances for a player of this profile, this is the kind of game you think of. An almost universal opinion, even from Liverpool fans, that he really made his presence felt, owned that midfield and stood out, even amongst the stars.

When you start seeing similar terms used to describe what Rice did this weekend and has been doing this season it starts to look like lowering standards in order to uplift Rice. He probably he has it in him to deliver such performances, but let him actually earn it and do it before anointing him.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fernandinho-man-citys-unsung-hero.433643/page-2
 
"I won't change my mind regardless of how bad Casemiro is this season". Incredibly short sighted indeed.
That's... not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that it's a perfectly valid topic of conversation to discuss his recruitment, but I think that the pros that he's brought to date in his 1st season are massive. I also think it's incredibly unlikely he'll remain dogshit throughout an entire season. :)
 
He wasn't excellent, and no one on the pitch on Sunday was. It was a boring game with very little to get excited about.

This kind of overreaction from the Arsenal fans is exactly what some have been criticizing with regards to narrative. He was decent, unremarkable, and professional. But his performance is being branded as brilliant or excellent. It's absurd.
This is why I originally said people are trying to force a narrative that there has been no better DM than him. The whole argument that he would have fixed our team woes is also funny. We would have probably looked a tad better but it's not like we didn't see a top class DM at work last season.
 
This is why I originally said people are trying to force a narrative that there has been no better DM than him. The whole argument that he would have fixed our team woes is also funny. We would have probably looked a tad better but it's not like we didn't see a top class DM at work last season.
I'm 100% on board with this. Run of the mill performances being branded "excellent" or "brilliant midfielder performance". It's transparent.
 
He wasn't excellent, and no one on the pitch on Sunday was. It was a boring game with very little to get excited about.

This kind of overreaction from the Arsenal fans is exactly what some have been criticizing with regards to narrative. He was decent, unremarkable, and professional. But his performance is being branded as brilliant or excellent. It's absurd.
It was a "boring" game in that the football wasn't free-flowing with lots of chances going around, but tactically it was quite fascinating to watch. Particularly from an Arsenal perspective because this is the type of performance we've never been able to put together against City. Last season we played with our usual style and got spanked both games. This season, Arteta knew we had to try to contain them and be more measured, rather than force the issue and getting exposed. And Rice and our CBs are probably the biggest reasons we achieved this (having Saliba instead of Holding also helped immensely).

I'm 100% on board with this. Run of the mill performances being branded "excellent" or "brilliant midfielder performance". It's transparent.
I don't know, when you keep City to 1 shot on target and 4 shots in total, I think that's a pretty "brilliant" performance, not really run of the mill. Of course it wasn't all down to Rice, but he was certainly one of our best players on the pitch. Probably only the CBs were better than him IMO, maybe Jesus. Keep in mind we went into this game with the demoralising history of having suffered 12 consecutive league defeats against them since 2015. This was as much a mental/psychological victory than anything else. I have waited a long time to feel like we even belong on the same pitch as City.
 
It was a "boring" game in that the football wasn't free-flowing with lots of chances going around, but tactically it was quite fascinating to watch.
I was wondering when this would come up. It really wasn't fascinating. It was a very tactical game indeed, but it was incredibly straightforward with very little to take from it, due to key players missing and neither team playing at full strength.
 
I was wondering when this would come up. It really wasn't fascinating. It was a very tactical game indeed, but it was incredibly straightforward with very little to take from it, due to key players missing and neither team playing at full strength.
Agreed, as a top of the table clash, it was extremely low quality. Which was a shame as I was proper hungover, slouched on the sofa and wanted to see a good game.
 
Interesting points. So do you think anyone can come in and elevate you? If someone quite proven like Rice can't, what level of player are you looking for? Mbappe? Or is your system (on the pitch and behind the scenes) so broken that no one can look good in it? Genuine questions.

I don't think he meant it as a slight on Rice. He's a player with some excellent traits who was signed to perform specific tasks in a particular system. In this sense, the system's success will define if he's worth the exorbitant transfer fee. Now, his fate at Arsenal may be juxtaposed to Casemiro's at United. I'm sure you won't deny that the Brazilian is a world-class defensive midfielder, and one of the best in his position. Yet, you can see how his impact is gradually waning at United because our team still looks like a bunch of individuals trying to plug holes and carry the team on their own. It's not farfetched to suggest that either Rice would look as lost as Casemiro in United's midfield, or that Casemiro (with bags of experience and a winning mentality to match) would be an equally good or even better addition (at least in the short/midterm) to this young Arsenal side. If you win the league, the 100 million for Rice will be perceived as money well-spent. We are already looking at (another) multi-million flop, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of both Rice and Casemiro.

As for what we need and who can elevate us, you only need to take a look at the discussions in the mains. We're only two or three additions from challenging until the wheels come off and, suddenly, we need to buy a whole new team again. This is in complete contrast to what is happening at City, who are the team everyone has to beat to get to the title. With Pep, who is the prototypical system coach of our era, you have this paradox. On one hand, he's being "accused" of needing an open cheque to sign all the talent that will make his system work. On the other, he may lose a player whose individual talents should render him "irreplaceable" due to lengthy injuries, suspensions or sale/retirement, but the team will continue to perform at a high level because the system creates the right balance. The importance of individual talent is not being devalued, as some may think when they read "system player", it's measured in terms of adaptability and execution within a set of parameters. And if the system works really well, it can even make players who are good but not exceptional look better than they actually are.

The opposite is happening at United. We see football mostly as a game of partnerships between two or three players all over the pitch. Thus, the discussions about what more we need and what is a player's best position in order for us to "unlock" him. It's a game of add and subtract that puts too much emphasis on individual skill to build a team. It's why Arteta could create a well-functioning midfield with Xhaka while we're still scratching our heads to find who should play next to Casemiro. That's what happens when the system dictates the individual skills required for each role and not vice versa. And it's also the system that elevates the players. It's just the era we are living in.
 
People are equating boring with bad. Other than Raya being slow moving the ball in the first half, it was generally a game of few glaring errors. If you watch City most of the season, this is how they play with some extra flair provided by KdB. It is technically very sound.

End to end stuff similarly doesn't mean it is a good quality game, it's just entertaining. We have played way worse games even so far this season. The mind frame was different in this one and it became more of a chess game. City always play us this way lately, but we didn't giftwrap a goal this time. Btw for all the talk of Saka, KdB etc..these are probably the two best defensive teams in the league.
 
I was wondering when this would come up. It really wasn't fascinating. It was a very tactical game indeed, but it was incredibly straightforward with very little to take from it, due to key players missing and neither team playing at full strength.
What I took from it was Arteta finally got one over Pep. :D When you consider that his 4 subs all combined for our goal (albeit Lady Luck also playing a huge part), he couldn't have managed the game much better. It was interesting that when Arteta subbed off Zinchenko and put on Tomiyasu, Pep moved Doku to the other wing. I enjoy watching the managers trying to out-think each other. Master vs apprentice and all.

Yes I imagine for the neutral it wasn't fascinating. But from an Arsenal perspective, it's almost unbelievable how this team has been transformed. When people say we haven't really clicked yet going forward and we're less exciting this season, IMO this is why - Arteta is making us better at absorbing pressure and limiting the opposition to few chances. He always talks about "controlling both boxes". We have joint most clean sheets (4/8 games) in the league. Not too long ago we were shipping goals like crazy, even towards the end of last season which is why we bottled the league. I think Arteta has learned from that and to keep a clean sheet against City is just unheard of for us.
 
What I took from it was Arteta finally got one over Pep. :D When you consider that his 4 subs all combined for our goal (albeit Lady Luck also playing a huge part), he couldn't have managed the game much better. It was interesting that when Arteta subbed off Zinchenko and put on Tomiyasu, Pep moved Doku to the other wing. I enjoy watching the managers trying to out-think each other. Master vs apprentice and all.

Yes I imagine for the neutral it wasn't fascinating. But from an Arsenal perspective, it's almost unbelievable how this team has been transformed. When people say we haven't really clicked yet going forward and we're less exciting this season, IMO this is why - Arteta is making us better at absorbing pressure and limiting the opposition to few chances. He always talks about "controlling both boxes". We have joint most clean sheets (4/8 games) in the league. Not too long ago we were shipping goals like crazy, even towards the end of last season which is why we bottled the league. I think Arteta has learned from that and to keep a clean sheet against City is just unheard of for us.
You're basically happy that you're not getting twonked by big teams as you used to a few years back. That's fine, but it doesn't make that game fascinating by any stretch of the imagination. I think the result and giddiness has seriously made Arsenal fans lose sense of perspective on this game, both from a collective and individual standpoint.
 
The stupid comments I was referring to were along the tone of "we should have recruited him for what Case did for half a season", which is incredibly short sighted and frankly pretty stupid. What Case did in "half a season" (more than that, but whatever) is way above anything Rice has shown in his career to date - and he's been playing for quite a few years now. It's also what I'm referring to with regards to the single handedly convincing people that all a DM needs to do is block and intercept. His range as a footballer is limited. He's nothing like Casemiro.

If Casemiro goes through a whole season with this form, the question about recruitment will be worth having (I'll personally still believe it made sense for what he brought to the club in a transitional key season, and I'm less worried now we have Amrabat), but that's about it. And that's not what a lot of people have been saying in here.

Casemeiro last year wasn’t better than Rice.
 
I was wondering when this would come up. It really wasn't fascinating. It was a very tactical game indeed, but it was incredibly straightforward with very little to take from it, due to key players missing and neither team playing at full strength.

It was a poor game, very little quality.
 
Casemeiro last year wasn’t better than Rice.
He was. He literally improved United's midfield. He has his lapse of moments but that is his game. Rice plays safe football, Casemiro likes to use the ball more to attack. Last year his performance in many games were top notch.
 
He was. He literally improved United's midfield. He has his lapse of moments but that is his game. Rice plays safe football, Casemiro likes to use the ball more to attack. Last year his performance in many games were top notch.

Rice was top quality for West Ham too, Rice plays safe football but he was one of the most progressive defensive midfielders last year in terms of carrying the ball, Casemeiro used the ball in terms of passing options, but even last season he was capable of some of the most shocking performances you’ll ever see from a DM passing wise, there were games where he was getting passing success stats of 58-65% which is horrible.
 
Rice was top quality for West Ham too, Rice plays safe football but he was one of the most progressive defensive midfielders last year in terms of carrying the ball, Casemeiro used the ball in terms of passing options, but even last season he was capable of some of the most shocking performances you’ll ever see from a DM passing wise, there were games where he was getting passing success stats of 58-65% which is horrible.
Rice was mediocre for westham in most of the game to the point people were mocking 100m being spent on him. So let us not rewrite history. He was good , but so was Casemiro. His performance against Barca , Newcastle (carabao final), Spurs home, chelsea home, chelsea away, villa home, the fa cup semis to name some, were on different level and typical Case performance he gave when playing for Madrid. Rice till now has never dominated a mf like that. It's even funny we are comparing who is better when at their best.

And as for passing completion , I already said Case will have a poor number because he makes those risky passes, Rice doesn't. He plays safe so his passing will always have higher completion rate.