When Arsenal signed Rice, I believed he was overrated and overpriced. If it was possible, he’s even more overrated now. I’m happy to have my comment bookmarked and be ridiculed later on in the season but there’s nothing I see in his Arsenal performances that make me feel that he’s even worth half his transfer fee. Fortunately for him, he’s a DM so stats are always unlikely to show him up.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
No one is comparing them at their best, Casemeiro was not at his best last season, Casemeiro at his best is better than Rice but not for the last year or so.
Also that’s no excuse for Case low passing stars, most of the midfielders who are more creative and play more expansive passes than Casemeiro still don’t have multiple games where there passing stats are that low.
Just interested, why say bookmark later? Rice obviously splits opinion already, can see that from just the opinions on here. Some rate him highly, some don’t, and that’s ok. But what do you expect him to do in his personal performances to change peoples minds or to justify your opinion that he’s not doing now?
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Casemiro was better than Rice last season. You can just keep on bringing passing stats and what not but overall as a midfielder he was very good overall. Rice was hardly worldclass last season. He was just your typical midfielder for westham where they finished 14th in the league.
The reason we finished 8th that season was due to players like Wilian, Luiz and Ceballos continually starting.
Had ESR and Martinelli played more from the start, we'd of finished higher.
We have endured mediocre players for so long that now that we have some top drawer ones, I want to defend them with my life. I'm more protective of Rice than I am of my husband.
Which mediocre players? I wouldn't rate Rice above the majority of Arsenal midfielders, in last 15s years say
Our worst period was 2018 - 2021. Before then, we were consistently top three or four in the league. You wouldn't achieve that with mediocrity.
Ultimately we paid too much for Rice; he's just lacks attributes for a possession based midfielder. He's not played badly his understanding with the other players has improved. But, he's still underwhelmed for the outlay.
Yes yes but that doesn't help the point I was making. That we have put a lot of effort and blood in helping Saka/Martinelli grow.
99% of EPL players are overpriced, overpaid, and overrated.
Sure, that's always the case when introducing young players. But it's not why we finished 8th that year. Arteta made many mistakes; put too much trust in Wilian, Luiz and Ceballos. The likes of Elneny and Pepe should have played more. Martineli and ESR were bought into the team too late.
City lost to Wolves and Newcastle mate.
As much as you have a right to be puffed up about this win after 10 years of losing to them in the league, the fact that they fielded Rico Lewis, Kovacic and Alvarez in midfield and still marginally outmatched you in possession suggests that you weren’t really all that.
On the contrary, stats are likely to be used to falsely prop him up. After his next game, you are guaranteed to see some inane Tweet like this:
"Pass completion: 87%
Headers won: 3
Tackles: 3
Interceptions: 2
Decisive passes: 1
Colossus"
Good stat but not that difficult when Arsenal play with 2 DMs and 3 CBs while City are missing their two most important players. They were limited to 5 shots last season at Old Trafford with KDB and Rodri on the pitch and Haaland not in a slump. That was more impressive with 3 fullbacks as part of the defence and Fred and Eriksen in midfield.
Well I happen to think that EtH showed enough last year to believe that he is building a coherent way of playing. I remember Arteta's first two seasons and lot of the performances were defensive and rigid and it was hard to see a clear semblance of pro active tactics and think EtH showed more last year than Arteta did in his first season albeit with the caveat that EtH had better quality individually at his disposal.
Obviously we will have the rest of the season to see if that will be built on and that early season form is indeed mitigated by the well documanted circumstances. If that's the case, then I have to believe that Onana, Mount, Amrabat and Højlund will be valuable compliments to whatever he's building or at least 3 out of them 4. If you are asking about players who can single handedly elevate a team to a new level, for me, that is exclusive to the creative forwards who can change a game on their own through superior dribbling or passing ability. I'd think Mbappé, maybe Vinicius, Bellingham looks like he fits that bill whereby he can do things on his own. Can't think of many more at the moment but it's indeed such a rare thing in football nowaydas as systems are so well refined and practiced when it comes to the very elite.
No one will argue with you that Rice is overpriced and Arsenal overpaid for him. It is also ok for people to believe he is overrated either. Arteta will probably still start him over Partey next game.
I wasn't meaning midfielders exactly, just in general. But yes towards Wenger's last years and Emery, we had some mediocre midfielders - Torreira, Maitland-Niles, Guendouzi and while we all love him now, Xhaka was quite maligned for a big chunk of his time here. Unfortunately for him Wenger and Emery used him as a DM when that wasn't his best position.
When you say "underwhelmed", what do you mean exactly? He's a DM primarily and we no longer look lost without Partey. We're 8 games into the season and we're 2nd (joint top on points) in the league and have only lost 1 game in all competitions. Most of that time without Partey too.
I actually rate him now more than most people here and he wasn't overpriced by much.
Agree. Statistically Casemiro destroys Rice defensively. Arsenal play more on the front foot than we do yet Casemiro even at his worst this season has equally Rice in every department but number of dribbles.
Maybe because Casemiro has been trying to hold down a full midfield by himself that’s unbalanced unlike Rice who has freedom to roam more at arsenal currently.
Last season Casemiro was light years ahead. Laughable people comparing the second best DM after Rodri on the planet last year to a mid table player.
Rice is a solid Premier League footballer but statistically he’s not world class and never will be - especially defensively. Casemiro meanwhile is more aggressive and a monster with duals. He’s a freak defensively.
The problem is Ten Hag asking too much of him this season offensively to boot. Swap Rice for Casemiro in our current side we’d lose more games period.
Arteta wanted more depth in DM. Proven EPL players especially english players are very expensive. I hardly believe any Arsenal fans believe Rice is the missing piece in the puzzle and a world beater that will make Arsenal win the league this season.
I see, so you would get forwards/wingers then over prioritising your midfield. Yes I'd agree that your biggest issue is scoring goals, though I think your midfield has also left a lot to be desired this season.
Yes, we've improved massively vs big teams in the last couple of seasons but City was the final little hurdle. After this win, Arteta has now beaten every team in the PL since he arrived. Not sure what "sense of perspective" has been lost - we are enjoying a win against a side we've been continually embarrassed by for almost the last decade. I guess I find it fascinating because I like the defensive/off the ball side of the game almost as much as I like the attacking side.
Sure. Good for Man Utd. Enjoy.
He does though. I don’t even get why that’s an argument. Casemiro is world class. Rice isn’t. Book closed.
This is an easy argument and stats back it up too.
You saw even against Bayern Casemiro almost single handedly brought us back into the game. He’s a pretty magic player if the team is balanced. Which it’s not atm due to injuries / the management team.
The actual level of performance of Declan Rice, as per this thread.
Casemiro won everything with Real Madrid. I am not arguing. Just enjoy.
Yeah okay sorry if I misinterpreted. I doubt he’ll win much here though truth be told. Not his fault I might add
We could add prime De Bruyne and Toni Kroos next to him we still wouldn’t win the league sadly. Our attack is atrocious.
Oh right, the far-fetched notion that he was brilliant in this game. I just watched our goal again, and I just noticed that Rice actually pointed for Partey to hit the ball in that area which started the attack. Brilliant.
I have no problem people think Rice that he is overpaid and overrated. It is for him to prove himself on the field, not from the fans in the forum.Yeah okay sorry if I misinterpreted. I doubt he’ll win much here though truth be told. Not his fault I might add
We could add prime De Bruyne and Toni Kroos next to him we still wouldn’t win the league sadly. Our attack is atrocious.
Expect it to become more apparent in the future.
Agree, and he's definitely not in the 1% despite being in the top 1 percentile in terms of transfer fees.
Agree. It's confirmation bias to play on sentiments based on certain results.
With all due respect, you didn't get prime Casemiro. Yes we all know his CV is what dreams are made of but you bought him at 30 and he's moving to a more physical league. A younger Case could do the job ETH is demanding of him. But not now. Unless his form drastically improves, ETH will eventually have to give up on the Mount/Bruno/Case midfield he seemed intent on.
Similarly for Arsenal, Arteta spent big on Rice because he knew Partey cannot be relied on (never has been, really). Partey didn't get injured much at Atletico but has been a lot for us. Yes his minutes were managed more carefully in Spain but I think it's also because he's moved to a more physically demanding league. And of course, getting older.
Farqing
I'm dumber for having read that nonsense.
Behaviour of Arsenal fans towards others reflects on their manager and players. So nothing strange about that.
For me it is ok if they lie to feel good. As long as they are happy. Everybody thats been around football for more than 30 - 40 years can see difference between a great player and average one. To see deeper and not accept picture from media and social media.
What’s your opinion comparing Bruno to Odegaard out of interest?
Last season I’d have taken Bruno. This season Odegard.
I think Bruno is a better creator for sure… but I like players who are a little more dynamic in the middle of the park so in my team I would choose Odegard.
De Jong I rate higher than both. He’d be my pick as I dunno if I like the max attacking output midfielder. I think the balance can be way off some matches in the middle.
That is impressive. Prior to the game I saw some stat that during the time we've won a total of zero points off them United had won 17. Tottenham were up there too.
In what stats, can you show them to us all?
I did a deep dive at the start of the season and compared Partey, Casemiro, Rice, Caicedo and Rodri. Out of the five Casemiro was the most sound defensively, but clearly the worst with passing and ball progression, though his scoring was the next. It was an interesting exercise.
Edit: From memory the best defensively were Casemiro, Caicedo then Rice.
The best at passing (progressive and retention) were Rodri, Partey then Rice.
The best at carrying the ball forward was Partey and Rice.
The biggest goal that was Casemiro.
I guess all the Arsenal fans, the pundits, the media that reviewed the game and most neutrals are wrong, and the few United fans on Redcafe are right.
Where's that Seymour Skinner meme when you need it?
Thanks. I was just trying to piece together your logic that Casemiro was carrying your midfield by himself in comparison to Rice. Would you rather have Eriksen or Mount over Havertz I’d presume?
Underwhelmed in terms of not performing relative to the hype and price tag. Where is the clean one touch passing under pressure, body positioning, range of pass, close control etc. You can't sign a midfielder like Rice for £100m and play a possession based style. His limitations are a big reason why we've struggled to create so far this season
Its true that Rice doesnt help us to progress centrally like Partey does. But we have made adjustments to that already, with Odegaard dropping deeper to assist in our second phase, as well as Zinchenko moving into the six role as well. With time Rice himself will be able to receive better with his back to the opposition goal and replicate the work Partey does for Arsenal.
But that's not the only contribution Rice makes to the team. Rice's key abilities are to cover ground quickly as a box to box midfielder and allow Arsenal to keep the ball in advanced areas due to his ability to recycle and win the ball in advanced areas on a consistent basis.
Arsenal's central progression will improve once Partey and then Timber return to full fitness again. A midfield of Rice-Partey-Odegaard is the next phase for Arsenal, allowing for all the team's best attributes to come through again.
Zinchenko did that already last season, and to the bolded, there is nothing to Rice's (already extensive) body of work that suggests he is capable of it, apart from your wishful thinking.
He's receiving between the lines already by the way. You dont need to be able to successfully receive and turn on the ball to progress it through the lines, especially when you are a positional play team.
Its why you see passes like the keeper to the six position, who then automatically lays it off to a fullback, for example.
Rice at six works already and will only improve as he settles more into our system, whether he improves his ability on the half turn or not.
It just seems like just because he excels in a few areas there is a constant minimizing of the scope of things Rice is expected to be good at while still somehow retaining this brilliant midfield colossus reputation.
The math isn't mathing. This is a fairly basic skill that even John Stones pulls off with ease and yet "one of the best DMs in the world" is being absolved of this responsibility. It seems like a lot of Arsenal fans want to adjust standards to meet Rice where he is instead of having him rise to the level.