David Villa | Monday 'defining day' for Spurs: Villa signs for Atletico Madrid

[Ekeke]

He struggles with everything else that relies on his physical attributes anyway, so him losing pace won't change that.

He doesn't run behind the defence often, he doesn't chase down players often, he doesn't dribble at pace often...him losing pace won't change that.

Bit like Eider Gudjohnson, except not. More like Teddy Sheringham. You know, that player who won the player of the year award when he was 35.

Yes. But realise you arent playing Football Manager, right? We arent talking a Sheringham regen who will have the same career as him.

Berbatov does the bare minimum aside from playing the ball around nicely. He wont even do that when he's in his earlier thirties and because of that he most likely wont be first choice. As another player will have to carry him. Literally. He'll be like Paul Scholes playing up front now, only not as good a passer.

Villa on the other hand will adjust his game and play more like Raul. He'll have to adjust his game more than someone like Berbatov will in his twilight, but thats simply because Berbatov cant adjust his game - he already plays the way he'll have to in the future. Just he'll be a lot less effective with it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He struggles with everything else that relies on his physical attributes anyway, so him losing pace won't change that.

He doesn't run behind the defence often, he doesn't chase down players often, he doesn't dribble at pace often...him losing pace won't change that.

Bit like Eider Gudjohnson, except not. More like Teddy Sheringham. You know, that player who won the player of the year award when he was 35.

God that description just made Berbatov sound even worse in my head.

 

[Brwned]

Yes. But realise you arent playing Football Manager, right? We arent talking a Sheringham regen who will have the same career as him.

Berbatov does the bare minimum aside from playing the ball around nicely. He wont even do that when he's in his earlier thirties and because of that he most likely wont be first choice. As another player will have to carry him. Literally. He'll be like Paul Scholes playing up front now, only not as good a passer.

Villa on the other hand will adjust his game and play more like Raul. He'll have to adjust his game more than someone like Berbatov will in his twilight, but thats simply because Berbatov cant adjust his game - he already plays the way he'll have to in the future. Just he'll be a lot less effective with it.

Berbatov makes more interceptions than our current strikers - he'll still do that because that's reliant on having a footballing brain, not pace.

Berbatov makes more tackles than our current strikers - he'll still do that because whenever he closes players down to tackle them, he jogs towards them, and doesn't go at full pace.

Berbatov does very little else off the ball, and what he does on the ball doesn't use his pace.

This argument's going nowhere if you think Villa will happily change his game and be very effective still, but Berbatov won't change his game and will become less effective.

Seriously, that's not something to argue about, that just defies logic and only makes sense in your head.

 

[Brwned]

God that description just made Berbatov sound even worse in my head.

You must've thought Teddy Sheringham was a bit crap too then.

 

[jgraham]

Right, so i've clicked on the david Villa thread and gone to the last page to see what the news is - the last 3 posts are all about berbatov

So David Villa.....

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You must've thought Teddy Sheringham was a bit crap too then.

 

[Brwned]

You didn't, did you?!

Must just not be your type of player.

 

[Brophs]

Right, so just to summarise...

Berbatov, for logical reasons unstated will become a husk of his now seemingly quite poor self, and will eventually become a Liam Miller-esque figure for us.

Villa on the other hand will develop his game because 'he'll have to'.

Christ on a fecking bike.

 

[Ekeke]

Berbatov makes more interceptions than our current strikers - he'll still do that because that's reliant on having a footballing brain, not pace.

Berbatov makes more tackles than our current strikers - he'll still do that because whenever he closes players down to tackle them, he jogs towards them, and doesn't go at full pace.

Berbatov does very little else off the ball, and what he does on the ball doesn't use his pace.

This argument's going nowhere if you think Villa will happily change his game and be very effective still, but Berbatov won't change his game and will become less effective.

Seriously, that's not something to argue about, that just defies logic and only makes sense in your head.

Right, because Berbatov will change his game how? He's already playing the perfect game for him at 30 years plus. Because as we've gone over again and again, he does almost - almost, feck all except receive the ball and pass it on again sensibly. When he's 30 plus he'll go from doing almost feck all to doing literally feck all except receiving the ball and passing it. What adjustment could he make to his game then?

David Villa can play multiple roles well and is a multi-faceted striker. He is one of the most well rounded strikers you'll find, pretty much a complete player in his role - lacking only a few inches in height. His passing is good enough for him to link between Spain's midfield and strikeforce and when he drops deep he doesnt look out of place in Spain's midfield. Is there a better compliment to pay a striker than looking comfortable dropping into Spain's midfield and passing the ball about? Its a side of his game that is clearly under-appreciated. His linkup and passing ability is exceptional - its just he doesnt make 25 yard outside of the foot chipped through-balls so you wont find them on youtube. His short passing is brilliant for a striker and he'll have no problem relying on his footballing brain and ability to play the ball around as he gets over and his pace starts to wane. But in his 30s he wont only bring receiving and passing the ball to a side. He'll still chase balls, he'll still harass opponents, he'll still make runs in behind the defence, he'll still fire longshots into the roof of the net, get onto the end of balls into the box, use clever movement to create space for his team mates. He'll just do it all at a slower pace - but still no slower than Berbatov is now. And because of this he'll bring just as much if not more to the side than Berbatov's passing.

 

[Brwned]

Right, because Berbatov will change his game how? He's already playing the perfect game for him at 30 years plus. Because as we've gone over again and again, he does almost - almost, feck all except receive the ball and pass it on again sensibly. When he's 30 plus he'll go from doing almost feck all to doing literally feck all except receiving the ball and passing it. What adjustment could he make to his game then?

David Villa can play multiple roles well and is a multi-faceted striker. He is one of the most well rounded strikers you'll find, pretty much a complete player in his role - lacking only a few inches in height. His passing is good enough for him to link between Spain's midfield and strikeforce and when he drops deep he doesnt look out of place in Spain's midfield. Is there a better compliment to pay a striker than looking comfortable dropping into Spain's midfield and passing the ball about? Its a side of his game that is clearly under-appreciated. His linkup and passing ability is exceptional - its just he doesnt make 25 yard outside of the foot chipped through-balls so you wont find them on youtube. His short passing is brilliant for a striker and he'll have no problem relying on his footballing brain and ability to play the ball around as he gets over and his pace starts to wane. But in his 30s he wont only bring receiving and passing the ball to a side. He'll still chase balls, he'll still harass opponents, he'll still make runs in behind the defence, he'll still fire longshots into the roof of the net, get onto the end of balls into the box, use clever movement to create space for his team mates. He'll just do it all at a slower pace - but still no slower than Berbatov is now. And because of this he'll bring just as much if not more to the side than Berbatov's passing.

Riiiight, seems like you're avoiding the main question here:

Who do you think will be affected more when they lose their pace - Berbatov or Villa?

 

[Gabe]

Just my impression of Villa- his greatest asset is his clinical finishing, kind of like Henrik Larson to me.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Riiiight, seems like you're avoiding the main question here:

Who do you think will be affected more when they lose their pace - Berbatov or Villa?

How is it possible to say?
Villa would probably still get you tons of goals even if he loses a few yards in pace due to his natural goalscorers instinct, much like Ruud never seems to lose that. Berbatov has looked like a goalscorer.

In terms of buildup play Berbatov would lose more as he loses pace, but FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN Villa seems to rely less on what he does in the buildup and more on actually scoring oals.

 

[711]

Will Villa improve and increase in value at his age? Will Berbatov?

I would suggest neither will, which is why I said if we are to spend a shedload it should be on younger players that might.

The United way.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Will Villa improve and increase in value at his age? Will Berbatov?

I would suggest neither will, which is why I said if we are to spend a shedload it should be on younger players that might.

The United way.

I agree with this. Even if it's someone like Benzema, we'll get to work on him as a player and take him to the next level. I like that.

I think we've got our experienced striker in Berbatov. I'd prefer someone young with pace, power and skill (yes i know i'm asking for a lot).

 

[Ekeke]

Riiiight, seems like you're avoiding the main question here:

Who do you think will be affected more when they lose their pace - Berbatov or Villa?

I didnt say Berbatov would be affected more. I said losing his pace will still affect him a lot. The same way it will affect any player. He'll be a lot less useful.

I said Villa would be a better player still. Villa will have to adapt his game more to rely more on his passing ability than he does currently. Berbatov losing his pace will mean instead of bringing just his passing ability to the side and doing the bare minimum of the other aspects of being a striker, he'll do less than the bare minimum required in terms of competing for the ball, running channels, chasing loose balls, ie. working for the team. So someone will have to carry him by taking ALL of the responsibility of doing the donkeywork, instead of just most of it right now. Villa will have to play slightly differently but he'll bring more to a side at that time. Easily. Definately.

 

[Brophs]

How is it possible to say?
Villa would probably still get you tons of goals even if he loses a few yards in pace due to his natural goalscorers instinct, much like Ruud never seems to lose that. Berbatov has looked like a goalscorer.

In terms of buildup play Berbatov would lose more as he loses pace, but FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN Villa seems to rely less on what he does in the buildup and more on actually scoring oals.

Though you'd think he relies on that pace of his to get in those scoring positions in the first place.

 

[Brwned]

How is it possible to say?
Villa would probably still get you tons of goals even if he loses a few yards in pace due to his natural goalscorers instinct, much like Ruud never seems to lose that. Berbatov has looked like a goalscorer.

In terms of buildup play Berbatov would lose more as he loses pace, but FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN Villa seems to rely less on what he does in the buildup and more on actually scoring oals.

I'm not sure I follow you.

Villa's main threat is from running in behind to score goals, and although he scores other goals from just getting into great positions, he'll lose that main threat with his pace.

 

[Brwned]

I didnt say Berbatov would be affected more. I said losing his pace will still affect him a lot. The same way it will affect any player. He'll be a lot less useful.

I said Villa would be a better player still. Villa will have to adapt his game more to rely more on his passing ability than he does currently. Berbatov losing his pace will mean instead of bringing just his passing ability to the side and doing the bare minimum of the other aspects of being a striker, he'll do less than the bare minimum required in terms of competing for the ball, running channels, chasing loose balls, ie. working for the team. So someone will have to carry him by taking ALL of the responsibility of doing the donkeywork, instead of just most of it right now. Villa will have to play slightly differently but he'll bring more to a side at that time. Easily. Definately.

Right.

But, erm, you still haven't answered the question. I thought it's a fairly simple question to answer too.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not sure I follow you.

Villa's main threat is from running in behind to score goals, and although he scores other goals from just getting into great positions, he'll lose that main threat with his pace.

I just reread that post and it had a lot more mistakes than just that.

I meant that Berbatov relies a lot lesser on pace but the fact that Villa relies less on buildup and more on being at the right place at the right time means he would probably still be a good goalscorer at 33 or 34.

I'll be honest i've not seen much from Villa. And everytime i've seen him it's been all about positioning and finishing so i've always assumed he's a goal poacher whose strength is finding space and finishing. In all probability i'm wrong. I've just given my opinion on the basis of my assumptions really.

 

[Ekeke]

Right.

But, erm, you still haven't answered the question. I thought it's a fairly simple question to answer too.

I've said enough. If you cant work out that Berbatov will be affected less, but Villa will still be the more useful player then this argument is beyond you.

Regardless, I'd be extremely surprised if either player was still first choice at Manchester United at 33 years of age. Especially given the young players we've got coming through up front.

Berbatov would just be a husk that passes the ball around. Villa would still be an all-rounder and would still score often, but by this time Welbeck and Macheda will have matured and would likely have more to give than either player from the start of matches.

This is why I think its fair to question these prices thanks to the ages of the players in question.

 

[Brwned]

I just reread that post and it had a lot more mistakes than just that.

I meant that Berbatov relies a lot lesser on pace but the fact that Villa relies less on buildup and more on being at the right place at the right time means he would probably still be a good goalscorer at 33 or 34.

I'll be honest i've not seen much from Villa. And everytime i've seen him it's been all about positioning and finishing so i've always assumed he's a goal poacher whose strength is finding space and finishing. In all probability i'm wrong. I've just given my opinion on the basis of my assumptions really.

No well I think you're right, but I'm not sure that's all there is to consider.

I think Ekeke's comparison to Raul is quite good, he'll still be able to score goals from outside the box and he'll still be a predator inside it, but his pace is a big part of making him as good as he is and when he loses that he will be a lot worse. I think he'll go from an excellent player to a good one.

Berbatov probably won't ever be as good a finisher, but he'll still be excellent at holding the ball up and link up the play, and his pace is a very small part of his game, so if he's an excellent player with average pace I think he'll still be a very good player with almost no pace.

 

[Brwned]

I've said enough. If you cant work out that Berbatov will be affected less, but Villa will still be the more useful player then this argument is beyond you.

Regardless, I'd be extremely surprised if either player was still first choice at Manchester United at 33 years of age. Especially given the young players we've got coming through up front.

Berbatov would just be a husk that passes the ball around. Villa would still be an all-rounder and would still score often, but by this time Welbeck and Macheda will have matured and would likely have more to give than either player from the start of matches.

This is why I think its fair to question these prices thanks to the ages of the players in question.

It's not beyond me, I'm paying little attention to it because it's senseless.

Right, so Berbatov will be affected less. There we go. All I need to hear.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

No well I think you're right, but I'm not sure that's all there is to consider.

I think Ekeke's comparison to Raul is quite good, he'll still be able to score goals from outside the box and he'll still be a predator inside it, but his pace is a big part of making him as good as he is and when he loses that he will be a lot worse. I think he'll go from an excellent player to a good one.

Berbatov probably won't ever be as good a finisher, but he'll still be excellent at holding the ball up and link up the play, and his pace is a very small part of his game, so if he's an excellent player with average pace I think he'll still be a very good player with almost no pace.

I hate to add this bit in because after Tevez showing his shades of grey i've been a lot more appreciate of Berbatov, but Berbatov isn't excellent right now where Villa is. You all have to consider that bit. Most consider the Villa amongst the best 4 strikers in europe while Berbatov isn't even considered our best striker. Most aren't even sure he's our second best striker.

If the above is the case Villa might just go from excellent to good while Berbatov from good to average. All based on terribly simple assumptions

 

[Brophs]

I've said enough. If you cant work out that Berbatov will be affected less, but Villa will still be the more useful player then this argument is beyond you.

You're like Russel Crowe in 'A Beautiful Mind'.

Delusional.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You're like Russel Crowe in 'A Beautiful Mind'.

Delusional.

Hey!
He was a beautiful person too!

 

[Brwned]

I hate to add this bit in because after Tevez showing his shades of grey i've been a lot more appreciate of Berbatov, but Berbatov isn't excellent right now where Villa is. You all have to consider that bit. Most consider the Villa amongst the best 4 strikers in europe while Berbatov isn't even considered our best striker. Most aren't even sure he's our second best striker.

If the above is the case Villa might just go from excellent to good while Berbatov from good to average. All based on terribly simple assumptions

He's not prove it for us yet, but I think Berbatov's excellent.

Villa's better, but I think they're both excellent.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's not prove it for us yet, but I think Berbatov's excellent.

Villa's better, but I think they're both excellent.

That's your opinion. In terms of performances in recent years Villa's record seems to be far ahead of Berbatov's. You're going by potential. And you're being extremely generous by putting them in the same bracket. There has to be a reason one is touted one of the best while the other is far far far from.

 

[Brwned]

That's your opinion. In terms of performances in recent years Villa's record seems to be far ahead of Berbatov's. You're going by potential. And you're being extremely generous by putting them in the same bracket. There has to be a reason one is touted one of the best while the other is far far far from.

Berbatov's been the most productive player in the league, the best in Europe and the strongest defensively, behind Rooney and Ronaldo in the last three seasons.

Villa's scored more goals, but to say he's performed far better than Berbatov seems to be stretching it a bit.

 

[Trigg]

For the record, I don't give a feck about sell on value. If the player improves us for the next 5 years and gets plenty of goals (in Villa's case) whats the problem?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Berbatov's been the most productive player in the league, the best in Europe and the strongest defensively, behind Rooney and Ronaldo in the last three seasons

Forget i brought this up. Some of you will bring anything on to the table to big up Berbatov. He's not our best striker. He's far from the best striker in the world. If he was so good Fergie would have actually started him in the final. I doubt Fergie would have left our someone rated amongst the 4 best strikers in europe.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

For the record, I don't give a feck about sell on value. If the player improves us for the next 5 years and gets plenty of goals (in Villa's case) whats the problem?

I doubt anyone cares about that. How much would get from 32 or 33 year old strikers anyway. It's about the contribution.

 

[Brwned]

Forget i brought this up. Some of you will bring anything on to the table to big up Berbatov. He's not our best striker. He's far from the best striker in the world. If he was so good Fergie would have actually started him in the final. I doubt Fergie would have left our someone rated amongst the 4 best strikers in europe.

Didn't say Berbatov was one of the best 4 strikers in Europe.

When he's on form I'd probably put him top 5, just about.

I'd have Villa right up there at the top.

I think it has more to do with you always talking down Berbatov, I just put down some cold, hard facts that are very relevant to how good he's been over the best three seasons.

 

[Ekeke]

Villa has finished a season as top assist provider in his league and second top goalscorer, never having played for one of the best 2 sides in the league.

Berbatov has come second in assists and that was in the 1 season he's had at a title winning club in England. Never close to one of the top scorers.

This doesnt tell the whole story obviously. But it tells one of the most relevant chapters.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Didn't say Berbatov was one of the best 4 strikers in Europe.

When he's on form I'd probably put him top 5, just about.

I'd have Villa right up there at the top.

Oh my. Berbatov in the top 5 strikers in the world sounds laughable. He's probably not in the top 10 right now. Does he, like the incredible hulk, become 10 times stronger and er, green, when he's on form?

Besides, chuck this on form nonsense, Robben on form is one of the scariest footballers in world football. That day occurs as frequently as he gets injured.

So you think Villa's the very best striker in europe yet hasn't performed far better than Berbatov. Doesn't add up at all.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Berbatov this season has been like Tevez was last season (if better or worse, marginally). Tevez gets labelled the argentine Alan Smith while Berbatov is put in the same brackets as the Villa's and Eto'os. Lovely.

 

[Brophs]

Berbatov this season has been like Tevez was last season (if better or worse, marginally). Tevez gets labelled the argentine Alan Smith while Berbatov is put in the same brackets as the Villa's and Eto'os. Lovely.

Those labels refer to style of play, not standing in the game.

 

[Brwned]

Oh my. Berbatov in the top 5 strikers in the world sounds laughable. He's probably not in the top 10 right now. Does he, like the incredible hulk, become 10 times stronger and er, green, when he's on form?

Besides, chuck this on form nonsense, Robben on form is one of the scariest footballers in world football. That day occurs as frequently as he gets injured.

So you think Villa's the very best striker in europe yet hasn't performed far better than Berbatov. Doesn't add up at all.

No. He becomes a player who scores or assists 73 goals in 86 starts in two seasons.

Robben's inconsistent, Berbatov's consistent.

I think he'd be on an equal level to Torres, yes. I also think it's pretty clear that Berbatov was an excellent player for Spurs and whether you want to admit that or not, it's there for everyone to see.

If he can repeat his Spurs form for us then he'll get plenty of plaudits for being up there with the best, like Villa does.

If we're judging on past performances, like his Spurs ones, then he's not far off Villa.

If we're judging him off his first season with us, then that's just silly. Sheringham wasn't very good in his first season with us. Won player of the year a couple of years later.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Those labels refer to style of play, not standing in the game.

How is berbatovs style of play similar to etto or villa in any way?

 

[Brophs]

How is berbatovs style of play similar to etto or villa in any way?

It's not. You made the comparison. It's not one I've heard before. I was simple referring to those sorts of comparisons in general.

But the Smith-Tevez one is pretty self-explanatory.

 

[711]

For the record, I don't give a feck about sell on value. If the player improves us for the next 5 years and gets plenty of goals (in Villa's case) whats the problem?

You're not alone, I accept that, although I can't quite get my head round it.

If we had spent £12 million on some old cnut 6 years ago instead of Ronaldo we would now have £68 million less to spend on new players. £68 million could be quite useful, no?

Onwards and upwards, mate.