David Ornstein: Man Utd want to keep Marcus Rashford | Consideration of sale if Rashford wants to take on a new challenge or a substantial bid arrives

Not just Marcus, 95% of the attacking forwards in the world benefit from a striker who can hold up and link up the ball well. We have really lacked a good striker of that ilk since RVP. Zlatan was good too but he was too old and a little slow by the time he joined us. Ten Hag's style of play (the real one, not the mythical one) also requires that type of striker as it is not very progressive and depends on transitions, counter-attacking and lot of hoof balls from the Keeper.
I think he prefers a tall, strong ballplayer, yes. He went from Tadic as a false 9 to Seb Haller who's an absolute animal (in the Dutch league) and also very nimble on the ball. Kane would've been exactly this type of player too and EtH wanted him badly last summer, according to Whitwell's article.

For 35 mil, Zirkzee would be a very good option in this mould. Any other strikers who fit this style and could be attainable?
 
He's one of England's most naturally talented players and people genuinely try to tell you on here that he's a "mid-table player", or claim that players like Mitoma are better than him.


If that was the case you wouldn't dare leave him out of the England squad. Don't hear anybody making a fuss over that decision either. The reality is he's simply not, and outside of Manchester United, especially outside of England very few would rate him.
 
Sancho quite clearly has much more natural talent than Rashford, and I don't think it's particularly close. Sancho was rated as the more talented in City's academy between him and Foden. I don't understand how you can claim Rashford is more naturally talented than Sancho who is ridiculously talented technically.

As for Garnacho, I think he is quite similar to Rashford, but not necessarily more talented. He is much more threatening offensively right now than Rashford, and actually offers work rate.

Pace, power, ball-carrying, ball striking, passing, transition threat, being a game changer, two-footedness, in all of these Rashford is light years ahead of Sancho. The only thing Sancho has over him is linking-up and combining in tight areas. Or is there something else in your opinion?
 
If that was the case you wouldn't dare leave him out of the England squad. Don't hear anybody making a fuss over that decision either. The reality is he's simply not, and outside of Manchester United, especially outside of England very few would rate him.

Well, Southgate leaving him out was a truly idiotic decision and I've voiced my opinion about that many times on here. Every single player he took is inferior to Rashford on the left wing.
 
Well, Southgate leaving him out was a truly idiotic decision and I've voiced my opinion about that many times on here. Every single player he took is inferior to Rashford on the left wing.
No one questions his talent or skills. His attitude, mental strength, leadership, application are the issues.
 
No one questions his talent or skills. His attitude, mental strength, leadership, application are the issues.

A lot of people are questioning that. The other things you listed are things we know nothing about from the outside.
 
It's actually incredible the lengths some people go to in order to justify their braindead takes about him. He's one of England's most naturally talented players and people genuinely try to tell you on here that he's a "mid-table player", or claim that players like Mitoma are better than him.

I wish people were generally better at judging a player's talent level.

A lot of people are also acting like Rashford is the sole or biggest problem when things aren't going well. In reality, he's not even really a problem.
A players talent means nothing if they're not prepared to put in the hard work. Attitude and talent is what defines players. You only have one of them then you shouldn't be playing for Manchester United.
 
Pace, power, ball-carrying, ball striking, passing, transition threat, being a game changer, two-footedness, in all of these Rashford is light years ahead of Sancho. The only thing Sancho has over him is linking-up and combining in tight areas. Or is there something else in your opinion?
You seem to invent a lot of niche categories that fit into your argument (transition threat? That’s covered in pace & ball-striking) — and omit those that don fit (like dribbling, for example).

Plus, you’re simply wrong on many accounts. I mean, to say that Rashford is a better passer than Sancho is simply preposterous.

Sancho is a more talented player — but his attitude is even worse than that of today’s Rashford (and is incomparable to Rashford of earlier, he was very good in that aspect). And that’s the key difference — well, that and Rashford’s athleticism.
 
Footballers on the Caf? Are there any, do you think? Bound to be lurkers, at least… probably too painful
I know quite a few of the youth lads read the Caf, Callum Gribbin once famously called everyone on RedCafe clueless.
 
You seem to invent a lot of niche categories that fit into your argument (transition threat? That’s covered in pace & ball-striking) — and omit those that don fit (like dribbling, for example).

Plus, you’re simply wrong on many accounts. I mean, to say that Rashford is a better passer than Sancho is simply preposterous.

Sancho is a more talented player — but his attitude is even worse than that of today’s Rashford (and is incomparable to Rashford of earlier, he was very good in that aspect). And that’s the key difference — well, that and Rashford’s athleticism.

Dribbling? Sancho couldn't beat a defender in the Premier League if his life depended on it.
 
A players talent means nothing if they're not prepared to put in the hard work. Attitude and talent is what defines players. You only have one of them then you shouldn't be playing for Manchester United.

You don't know anything about Rashford's attitude.
 
I cant hate Rashford. I dont doubt his love for United and I simply feel he is the type of guy who will let emotions get the better of him.
If he wants to stay and fight I hope he succeeds. For how shite this season was, the season prior he was our best player.
 
It's actually incredible the lengths some people go to in order to justify their braindead takes about him. He's one of England's most naturally talented players and people genuinely try to tell you on here that he's a "mid-table player", or claim that players like Mitoma are better than him.

I wish people were generally better at judging a player's talent level.

A lot of people are also acting like Rashford is the sole or biggest problem when things aren't going well. In reality, he's not even really a problem.
Don't think to much about it. Some people just love a good moan. Their statements don't actually need to make sense it's just a vehicle for them to vent...

I know quite a few of the youth lads read the Caf, Callum Gribbin once famously called everyone on RedCafe clueless.
Well.... Not, everyone. The vast majority though? For sure

I've been heavily critical of him but if ETH gets a free pass and excuses galore it has to be extended to the players.



Let's see show he fares under the new INEOS structure, medical team, and a more positive team.
My thoughts too...
 
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Pace, power, ball-carrying, ball striking, passing, transition threat, being a game changer, two-footedness, in all of these Rashford is light years ahead of Sancho. The only thing Sancho has over him is linking-up and combining in tight areas. Or is there something else in your opinion?

I thought we were talking about natural talent?

Rashford isn't a dribbler, he runs at opponents and beats them with pace (well, not anymore, but he used to be able to do it). Saying that Rashford is a better dribbler than Sancho is utterly absurd as it is objectively incorrect and no one other than Rashford fanboys would claim that.

Qualities like passing, dribbling, holding on to the ball and manipulating it, and the ability to operate in tight space is precisely what natural talent is. Sancho comfortably beats Rashford in all of this, as most of this is non-existent in Rashford's game.

Now, if you're talking about who has been the better player for us and the better career so far, then of course that would be Rashford, but we were talking about natural talent. Let's use another example to illustrate it better. Bruno Fernandes is more effective on the pitch than Musiala, but he is not even close to having Musiala's natural talent. Agree or disagree?
 
Honestly I'm at the stage of wanting him sold, solely to end this perpetual debate that we seem to have every season. If we're constantly having to debate whether Rashford is good enough to be a mainstay in this United team 8 years on then that itself is a pretty damning indication. There was never really any question as to how good the likes of Giggs and Scholes were (with some caveats, but no where near the extent as how Rashford is being scrutinised), simply because it was accepted they were good enough. Everything else was noise outside of football.
 
19/20: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system (after Bruno's arrival at least)
20/21: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system
21/22: Awful season, in a completely dogshit team and system
22/23: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system
23/24: Awful season, in a completely dogshit team and system

He's never been the problem when the team was collectively good, he's actually been one of our best players in those seasons. Unless you think 21/22 and 23/24 are both solely on him, which is very obviously not the case, then is he really that inconsistent?
As others have said, for a star player you cannot afford to say 'well, the team is playing badly therefore you can excuse that he's not played well'. Cole Palmer just had an outstanding season with a struggling Chelsea side, Salah a few years ago hit his usual goal tally when Liverpool struggled, Roy Keane was in the team of the season when Forest got relegated many years ago. The problem is the numbers and performances with Rashford drop off so spectacularly (just 5 and 8 goals in those two awful seasons) and it's just too much of a drop for a striker you ideally want to get 20-25 goals a season and dragging the team forward during difficult times. If the numbers dropped to say 15 goals then it'd be understandable but that fall is just way too drastic.

Also, i might be being too critical but his form in the second half of 20-21 was not good IIRC. The problem i've always had with players like him and Shaw it's that it's very difficult to put your faith in someone who seem to go whole seasons of inconsistency followed by another season where they're fantastic. It's just irritating and you never feel as though you can trust them.
 
How long ago was that?

You watch clips of him from a few years ago and he had blistering pace and was beating players with footwork easily. Everyone complains about his attitude and application but for me the problem is that he's just not that player anymore, whether it was the injuries or not I don't know but I don't see him getting that back.

You'd wonder if he's struggling to come to terms with that which could lead to demotivation.
 
Well, Southgate leaving him out was a truly idiotic decision and I've voiced my opinion about that many times on here. Every single player he took is inferior to Rashford on the left wing.
Rashford’s form and lower workrate are why he is left out.
 
Every time I read an opinion like this, I am reminded of:



You can question Rashfords application and attitude. I do frequently. But you can’t question his talent.

He’s a good talent, but not a special talent. He’s always been a level below world class players on a technical level. I’ve been consistent in this view ever since he broke through.
 
There are other highly paid players who cannot carry a shit team on their backs...hell, even most world class players can't. The environment and system is by far the most important thing for a footballer regarding being able to be effective and play to their strengths. Who are the guys that inspire their teams and make a dogshit team work? Even Bruno went missing in 21/22, and he's probably one of the only players in world football who can carry a team on their backs. Looking at the highest earners of other top 6 teams, which players making at least 250k per week would've been able to do well in our 21/22 or 23/24 teams? You completely underestimate how dysfunctional and just outright bad the team and system was.



Garnacho and Sancho more natural talent than Rashford :lol:

Absolutely horrible take
Explain to me clearly how highly rated Rashford was in our academy against Sancho and Garnacho. I’ll say I think Garnacho is slightly more contentious but based on Garnacho emerging into the first team agaisnt Rashford, Garnacho has overall looked far better. Sancho honestly isn’t even a debate, he was considered a prodigy at academy level and immediately went to tearing it up at Dortmund. With Sancho talent has absolutely nothing to do with his major issues.
 
19/20: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system (after Bruno's arrival at least)
20/21: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system
21/22: Awful season, in a completely dogshit team and system
22/23: Great season, in a somewhat functional team and system
23/24: Awful season, in a completely dogshit team and system

He's never been the problem when the team was collectively good, he's actually been one of our best players in those seasons. Unless you think 21/22 and 23/24 are both solely on him, which is very obviously not the case, then is he really that inconsistent?
20/21 was not a great season. He scored and assisted quite a lot of goals but his all-round play was very poor. The laziness, selfishness, poor decision making and struggle to dribble past players were all really starting to come to the fore that season.

A lot of people were saying at the time that it's great to be able to score and assist when playing badly, but it's not something that is sustainable and if the form continued the goals would dry up. Which is exactly what started to happen in the second half of that season and then obviously continued the following season.
 
Sure, but Rashford isn’t particularly special in that way. If we are talking pure talent I’d have Mainoo, Garnacho, Martinez, Bruno, Shaw hell even Sancho above Rashford. He was never considered a brilliant talent in our academy he just did fantastically well to take his opportunities. He maximises pretty average talent at his best, similar to someone like Sterling. That’s why when he’s off form, he can often be a complete liability because truthfully he doesn’t have the base talent needed to maintain a low base level.
From memory he was considered a brilliant talent in the younger age groups, but then he had a year or two where he dropped off a bit which is why the instant impact in the first team caught a lot of people by surprise.

I do think he's more talented than what you are making out. Or at least he was; he's never been the same since that back injury seemed to rob him of his agility. I'd certainly say he is/was comfortably more talented than Garnacho, but Garnacho seems to have a better mentality (which hopefully continues).
 
No way he wants a new challenge, he’s happy doing feck all. We’re stuck with him unfortunately.
 
No way he wants a new challenge, he’s happy doing feck all. We’re stuck with him unfortunately.

The only hope i think is that he takes on board the reasons why he wasn't included for England over the next few weeks and comes into pre season with some energy and desire.
 
Every time I read an opinion like this, I am reminded of:



You can question Rashfords application and attitude. I do frequently. But you can’t question his talent.

You are going off a 20 second clip from years ago, how many of these moments do you think we seem him running into defenders?