Too late!
David Moyes West Ham Manager | Gone (pedantic sod Sarni)
- Thread starter Damien
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
Too late!
They will one day do a course about him at Harvard just like they did with Fergie but this time it will be about the things you shouldn't do as a manager.
Moyes showed amazing arrogance to get rid of the backroom staff. Whether this was actually explicitly against Fergie's advice or not we might never know the real truth.
I think there was much more to this....I think given Jose's hardball negotiation style he had asked for a salary package or spending fund that somehow the club baulked at paying. Add a few nagging doubts from people such as Sir Bobby about Jose past record of behaviour and the club delayed until finally Jose agreed terms with Chelsea in the January. His comment about "almost a full season" that United new he was going to go to Chelsea implies there WAS a window where that could have changed.
Jose had spent ages being nice about United - he showed real class in the previous years Champions league exit, saying we had been the best side and the referee had ruined the game by sending off Nani. I'd never seen him be so generous before or since. To me it was a clear "come and get me" to the club as his issues with Madrid were already well known at the time. I think Mourinho knew Fergie's timescales well before anyone else but the club somehow chickened out.
Moyes was an aberration - now he is a warning from history - amazing that clubs rate him at all.
I’m very sure Wenger didn’t want to sell RVP to United. He just didn’t have a choice RVP had made it clear he didn’t want to stay with us and his position at the club was untenable. Unfortunately most Arsenal fans were too thick to realize that RVP was right when he came to the conclusion that Arsenal were not serious contenders and he wanted to play for a club that was going to win the league. If Barca or Real had come in Wenger would have shipped him off it did hurt seeing him being world class for Utd and winning the title.
Again like I said most Arsenal fans were too dumb to realize the truth in why RVP left.
I don't think Ferguson made the choice out of a desire to protect his own legacy, and in the process hurt the club he loves. I think his motivations were different, most of his good friends in management were British, he was very involved with the LMA which is mostly British managers, often bemoaned the lack of chances for young British managers at the top level. And from the stories over the years he had become a real godfather figure amongst managers in England.
So when the club asked him to choose his own successor it's possible he felt pressure to choose a British manager. He was also good friends with Moyes, rated him as a coach and they had very similar backgrounds and journeys into management. All of this probably lead to his judgement being completely clouded on the matter.
When you read back over the stuff coming out of the club at the time, the criteria being considered which lead to Moyes appointment was way off. It was mostly about longevity and it leading to success, it's actually the other way around. Success leads to longevity, Moyes being at Everton for 12 years meant feck all in relation to his suitability for the United job. He was still at Everton because he never won anything, if he had been regularly winning and/or competing for trophies he wouldn't have been there for 12 years.
Ferguson choosing Moyes was a big mistake almost any football fan could see a mile off. But possibly the bigger mistake was the club allowing Ferguson to choose his own successor. Gill and/or Woodward with the Glazers should have chosen the next manager.
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"It was only a goal but my heart went cold ,
I was expecting this" - David Moyes , 2017
LOONely Heart Tour
I was expecting this" - David Moyes , 2017
LOONely Heart Tour
Why is that reverting to type? He regularly got Everton top 7 .
I wonder, were SAF and Moyes ever big buddies, and if so, is Moyes still on SAF's Christmas card list?
As stevoc alluded to a few posts up, it was more a belief that British - and especially Scottish - managers, were best suited to continue (or build) the legacy of a club. In one way, you could understand his reasoning. Himself, Busby, Shankly, Stein, Graham and Dalglish were all iconic figures at their clubs. But apart from his own success, the triumphs of the Scottish managers were becoming few and far between. Heck, Fergie even recommended Alex McLeish for the Villa job, and backed him publicly to become a huge success. We all know how that one went.
We'll never know for sure whether Ferguson chose Moyes because his preferred options were unavailable, or whether he had earmarked Moyes a few years before as his top candidate. Nevertheless, Fergie made the odd blooper throughout his career, and unfortunately for the club and the fans, he saved one of the biggest gaffes for last.
It is a fact that SAF did advice Moyes to keep the back room staff and keep the way United play. Mike and Rene advised Moyes the same thing but he ignored it and sacked them and brought in some geezer called Round or Lumsdum. I can't even remember his name and never heard of him before. To sweeten it for United fans he brought in Phil Neville.
Good God what a shambles. And the media including Gary Neville had the gall to say that he should be given more time. Actually I am more p*ssed of with people like that than actually at the club. Ed believed SAF and gave him the job. People like Neville and Scholes should have said right off that he is not the man for United. Personal reasons took over Gary Neville over what was good for the club in promoting his brother's side.
Good God what a shambles. And the media including Gary Neville had the gall to say that he should be given more time. Actually I am more p*ssed of with people like that than actually at the club. Ed believed SAF and gave him the job. People like Neville and Scholes should have said right off that he is not the man for United. Personal reasons took over Gary Neville over what was good for the club in promoting his brother's side.
Big Eck won a Cup at least during his short spell at Birmingham.
Reverting to recent type then. Relegated with Sunderland, and before that got fired by Sociedad when they were only above the relegation zone on goal difference.
Everton is a big club. They should be in the same bracket as Spurs. They should not be regularly trying to get to 7th place. They should be trying to get to 3rd or 4th place at least. Moyes lowered expectations so much they think 7th place is good and a huge success.
It wasn't a short spell really. 4 years is ages in football.
For Big Eck and Birmingham it is a short spell. Moyes had won nothing is his time at Everton. Birmingham is a much smaller club than Everton.
A manager is only as good as his last job until he proves otherwise. Or in Moyes case his last 3 jobs, regularly finishing mid-table with Everton was a long time ago in football terms.
To date he has had 4 top level jobs before West Ham and made a clusterfeck out of 3 of them. So at this point it's possible what he did at Everton could have been a perfect storm of circumstances and/or luck that he simply doesn't have the talent or knowledge to replicate.
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Of course. Moyes didn't even get close to winning a trophy with them, and I'm not even saying he should have won the league - too difficult with Everton, although top managers would have probably at least looked like challenging once or twice over 11 years. He had 22 shots combined at League Cup and FA Cup, and he had several opportunities in UEFA Cup/Europa League and he never really was close aside from one FA Cup final which he lost. One final is an appaling result.
He was consistently getting them to finish pretty much where they should be expecting to finish, between 5th and 7th. He did not even take them into Champions League a single time over 11 years. How someone could think he had the resume to come and work for United is beyond me.
I think Everton was a big club. As big as Spurs until a couple of years. So he should be regularly competing with Spurs to get that elusive 4th place all the time. He was not. He only got once. He is happy with 7th place. Everton should have been aiming to get that 4th place. He may have got it or not but they are happy if they did not get it at all.
7th is what they want to be and 7th is what he got for us at United. To him it was a successful season. To United it was a disaster.
7th is what they want to be and 7th is what he got for us at United. To him it was a successful season. To United it was a disaster.
I have a theory that saf probably didn't care much about legacy, but he does care alot about the backroom staff, hence he got moyes since probably he thought he'll take care of them
Sky I think you are right. The first issue that SAF said about this whole thing was that " David felt that he needed his people in though I advised him that the whole place is one big huge machine and nothing much needed to be changed and to keep the coaching staff at least for a bit of time". But he wanted to bring his own people as is his right."
That shows that SAF did advice him to keep the back room staff. The imbecile that he is felt he knows much more than Phelan and Rene and the rest of them about winning trophies.
That shows that SAF did advice him to keep the back room staff. The imbecile that he is felt he knows much more than Phelan and Rene and the rest of them about winning trophies.
This. Football management is one of the few jobs where you can be shocking for agess but still land a cushy number based on achievements from years ago.
If I was shit at my last three jobs I'm not going to be considered for a fourth!
Sunderland are a joke and Man Utd was tough. Sociedad wasn't that great but it was a different country. He knows English football.
I don't see how eleven years can be described as a perfect storm of circumstances. Maybe for one or two seasons a manager can live off what the previous manager has done but after eleven years it's all down to him. And the club went from being consistently bottom half in the table to being consistently top 7 in his tenure.
Everton is a big club that should be competing with Spurs and not with WBA or Stoke. He made them a club that is happy with 7th place. They should be a top 5 regularly and even top 4 most of the time. He was happy being around the 7th position mark. The top half is not what Everton should be aiming for. They should have been aiming for a top 4, especially when he was there City was not dominant and Liverpool was having a hard time and so was Spurs.
Sunderland was a club several previous managers managed to keep in the Premier League. And yet Moyes managed to do much worse than than his predecessors despite spending more money than any of the others did in a summer window.
United was tough yes but a huge club, huge transfer budget, current champions with an experienced squad with a winning mentality. And yet Moyes managed to do much, much worse than his predecessor. Even much worse than even the most conservative expectations.
Yes very astute Sociedad was a in a different country, in the Champions league the season before as well. Back qualifying for Europa after he left,. And yet in between Moyes nearly relegated them.
Do you see a pattern? The Universe isn't conspiring against Moyes, nor is he taking on impossible jobs he was just crap at those clubs.
The perfect storm could have been in the first few years, things went in his favour that could have been circumstances and/or luck beyond his control. Once he had a team in place, a few decent finishes and money in the bank with the club and fans he cruised along from there and did well enough but he stagnated.
For me just like a player who has only shown good form at one club but is poor at others. Moyes has to replicate what he did at Everton at another club otherwise we will never know if Everton was just a one off. We can't judge his level by what he did at Everton years ago, going off his last 3 jobs Moyes just isn't a very good manager right now. If anything he's a very bad one.
@stevoc
That's a whole lot of text so i'm just going to make an emotional plea for you to support the (ex-) manager.
That's a whole lot of text so i'm just going to make an emotional plea for you to support the (ex-) manager.
Yeah no chance mate, he's a cretin and a bluffer who somehow keeps conning his way into managerial jobs and taking chances away from younger managers with potential talent and genuine work ethic.
After the Sunderland disaster he should have been found out, but it won't be long until he sinks West Ham and chairmen finally realize he's a charlatan.
Yeah when Moyes track record is laid out like that it's very hard to argue he's not been abysmal since leaving Everton.
@stevoc
I hope he does well now, just to prove you wrong.
I hope he does well now, just to prove you wrong.
That's revisionism. They were bottom half when he came to the club. He made them top 7. Plus it's not so easy to break into that elite group. Maybe with their new stadium they can do it but until then it will be tough.
Moyes can't even make the to ten in that table.
Very apt user name @notcool
Wage bill plays a large part in dictating a teams ambition. Moyes didn’t do badly with Everton, he was crap afterwards, but that doesn’t change what he did with Everton
Haha have i offended you or something?
Sadly for Dave and his supporters he won't prove me wrong
It's nuts that they replaced a good keeper like Adrian for Hart.
So there's an excuse for every bad job he's done. I knew very well he had his 'reasons' and he said them out loud while proclaiming himself as a top manager, it but I wasn't aware of the fact that people buy into it.
He did an abysmal job at United and he was perfectly happy with himself ('I wouldn't have done anything differently', 'I am not 20 points worse off than last year, I was at Everton') and felt hard done by his dismissal. He was terrible at Sociedad and still bragged about how he showed everyone what he can do by beating Barcelona for months (even though they ALWAYS beat Barcelona at Anoeta). He was then terrible at Sunderland, much worse than any of previous managers, and blamed it all on players from the very first day, somehow convincing people that they were destined for the fall without a fight, when a young manager like Silva went to Hull and almost kept them up despite smaller and worse squad and zero flexibility in transfer market, while playing impressive brand of football.
He's been absolutely dreadful for the last 4 years.
"I did not do my 'due diligence' before taking over as manager of Sunderland" - David Moyes
In other words, Sunderland were rubbish, but I couldn't be arsed to be professional and evaluate the club and playing staff before I joined on a Million pound salary.
Precisely what he also neglected to do at United.
Too pig headed to even recognize his mistakes, let alone actually learn from them.
@Sarni
I didn't buy into it, it's my very own opinion.
Doing poorly at United doesn't make a difference to me, I just write it off as the job being too big for him. Sunderland is Sunderland (I dare you to contradict me on that) and Sociedad should not be used as a barometer for how he does in English football.
Saying that he is bragging is funny. He doesn't call press conferences or set up interviews and he doesn't ask the questions. If he talks about Barcelona, it's because others have asked him about it. He's been obliging, which is nearly the opposite to bragging.
@stevoc
Not offended, just want ol' Dave to show up his detractors. I miss him being at the club. They were good times.
I didn't buy into it, it's my very own opinion.
Doing poorly at United doesn't make a difference to me, I just write it off as the job being too big for him. Sunderland is Sunderland (I dare you to contradict me on that) and Sociedad should not be used as a barometer for how he does in English football.
Saying that he is bragging is funny. He doesn't call press conferences or set up interviews and he doesn't ask the questions. If he talks about Barcelona, it's because others have asked him about it. He's been obliging, which is nearly the opposite to bragging.
@stevoc
Not offended, just want ol' Dave to show up his detractors. I miss him being at the club. They were good times.
You don’t seriously believe that, do you? Moyes is a very poor manager but I have to admit he is very skilled at using his friends in the media to promote him.
Sunderland have stayed up for several years before he came, yet after he joined and spent a significant amount on transfers (because he said on day one that players were not good enough), the didn't even look like staying up for much of a season and were much worse than before - with a squad that was the same or better.
It doesn't matter it was in La Liga, it was still terrible work. Someone like Silva could come into Premier League at a young age and do well, why is Moyes excused for going to Spain and failing? He did a terrible job there, the only reason why it's not being talked about as such as much as his spell at United or Sunderland is that people convinced themselves that Sociedad were somehow going to be in a relegation battle and 12th place was huge success.
Nope, him talking about being Champions League manager, proving himself at United and proving "what David Moyes can do, sending a message to the world" after winning a single game was just pure bragging. You can answer questions without talking yourself up, especially when you don't have the achievements to back it up, and you can manage a club without reminding everyone that your players are not good enough every week (which he has done at all three clubs).
He's done terrible job at three clubs he's been at since Everton, and at all of them he blamed it on something else. Not even once did he admit that he did something bad, instead he blamed players (from day 1 at Sunderland and now also West Ham) or the board for not giving him more time (at Man Utd and Sociedad). It's never ever his fault.
Do you support Everton?
Wum, or Moyes himself, or at least someone from his home town, I applaud this post! Nice work 