I thought Everton was denied UCL qualification due to the team limit (actual limit is 5 I think), but they were allowed. My memory is clearly broken. I'm officially an old bag
David Moyes Unemployed | European Champion
- Thread starter Damien
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Everton’s positions in the years before Moyes was appointed were 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th and 15th. You were the definition of relegation battlers.
He had one season where he struggled early on and then turned you into a team who was always in or around the European places. After he left, you‘ve steadily regressed back to being relegation candidates again, although Dyche does look as though he’s now moving you in the right direction.
As for West Ham, he initially took over with them in the relegation zone and kept them up (finishing 13th). He then took over again with them one point above the relegation zone and again kept them up (he only managed half the season when they finished on 39 points). Since then, they’ve finished 6th, 7th, 14th (but won a European trophy) and are currently again sitting 6th. It’s a quite astonishing job he’s done there.
100% agree.
I'd also argue he was trying to accommodate Rice desire to become a more complete midfielder rather than pure DM which forced Soucek into that role Instead which he hasn't really got the passing for, especially when he was sat back alone. The formation did shift back in the 2nd half of the season which helped solidify us back into top 10 form.
Our front three has more than a Klopp liverpool whiff now, with 3/4 players all capable of interchanging, scoring goals and being difficult to contain. Not easy to contain all of the front 3 nowadays, especially with Bowen and Kudus firing at the moment and Paqueta more than capable ad well
The regression isn't due to management but poor ownership.
He's done a good job, yes, but I just don't think he's a top class manager, that's all.
Football needs people like him and they're good at their jobs but there is a level between them and the true elites.
Good manager. Nowhere near good enough for us, which people occasionally seem to forget, but there aren’t many better appointments for mid table Premier League teams in terms of stability.
I thought Everton was denied UCL qualification due to the team limit (actual limit is 5 I think), but they were allowed. My memory is clearly broken. I'm officially an old bag
To be fair, UEFA didn't really have a set rule back then.
Real Madrid won the CL in 1999/2000 but finished 5th, and the 4th spot that would have gone to Real Zaragoza was instead awarded to them. UEFA changed the rules so that CL winners had to earn a spot via league position to qualify so that teams weren't unfairly missing out.
Then in 2004/05 Liverpool did the same, but the rules stated that Everton had to qualify in their place. UEFA granted Liverpool special dispensation to defend the title, and the compromise was them entering the first qualifying round, and Everton took the proper spot in the final qualifying round. This saw Liverpool playing Total Network Solutions from Wales and FBK Kaunas from Lithuania on their way to the group stage. They were also not granted "protection" from being drawn against other English sides before the quarter finals, which saw them end up in Chelsea's group,
After that, I think they went back to the rule that gave the CL winners a spot in place of the lowest qualifier from their respective league, which is why Chelsea qualified in 11/12 and Spurs had to settle for Europa League.
When they introduced a spot in the group stage for the Europa League winner, the total number for a league was capped at 5, meaning if the CL and EL winners both finished outside of the qualifying spots, the team in 4th would miss out and be in the Europa League.
I believe this cap is going up to 6 with the expanded format from next season.
They were very unlucky to come up against that Villarreal team in qualifiers. The same Villarreal side went on to make it to the semifinal (knocking us out on their way) and narrowly lose to Arsenal 1-0 on aggregate (Riquelme missed a penalty in stoppage time of the return leg at El Madrigal, which would have sent them to an extra time).
Going out to that Villarreal team is excusable. But getting embarrassed by dinamo Bucharest few days later is a bit ridiculous.
Moyes is the best (high) mid table manager in the PL history, but apart from two (recent) European runs, his lack of cup runs and previous awful European runs show his limits.
But he has done something that other managers couldn't and has managed to stay successful for over 2 decades. He is now in the same level with Jose, despite Jose being 5 levels above him from 2002 till 2017. So fair play to him.
It’s funny that now would be the time to give him praise. It’s his first win in seventy two attempts (72!) away at the big boys and he has brought some good teams to different places in different years.
71 times he has set up the same exact way and failed, and because he has finally done it against a disjointed Arsenal side, on the 72nd time of asking, he is being called a “top class manager”
Sorry, not for me Geoff.
71 times he has set up the same exact way and failed, and because he has finally done it against a disjointed Arsenal side, on the 72nd time of asking, he is being called a “top class manager”
Sorry, not for me Geoff.
He must be the only manager whose team qualified for the CL via the league with a negative GD. It says more about the state of the league that year than his own ceiling as a manager. He can offer medium to long-term stability by finishing, in terms of points tallies, between the mid-50s and the mid-60s. He literally replicated this at United. Just don't ask for more, and he's just the man for the job.
I kind of agree with you, but that also feels harsh against Moyes as well if that makes sense.
I thought he did a brilliant job with Everton given the dominance of the top 4 during his time, not many clubs were anywhere near consistently breaking in there.
He's also done a really good job with West Ham, winning a European trophy and building what looks like a real good outfit after losing their best player during the summer. His ability to get the best out of the likes of Paqueta and Kudus shows he's a bit more than the relic people label him with.
On the other hand, is he any better than the likes of Rodgers, Hodgson, Raneiri, Howe? Probably not, so it's probably fair not to overdo his achievements.
Think Moyes was born a decade too late. Could have easily seen him with his style winning a couple of PL's during the 90's with a Blackburn / Leeds / Newcastle.
I think more because he's got a European trophy (albeit a minor one) and has assembled a very specific team from a skillset perspective. They were my dark horses this year when they signed JWP and they are a nightmare for anyone to play against with how they set up. Halfway through the season and they're 3 points of the CL places, there's a bit of momentum around them this year.
He’d be sacked after 3 years like every other job he’s done
So the hammers are an unhappy bunch at the best of times, but they are starting to question their manager again. Is it time for another Moysie sack watch? Does he go before Hodgson or Ten Hag?
Could see him at Palace if he got the boot before Hodgson
Random observation but when was the last time he got the best out of a centre forward he signed? He seems to prefer converting wingers into strikers (presumably because he values their work rate) - Bowen, Antonio, Arnautovic. Scamacca was a waste of money.
I think they have the talent to be a team from about 6th to about 10th and he has them in 6th. He’s better than any mgr below him which is evident by the standings.
It's not that black and white. You've got to factor in circumstances of other teams, eg number of injuries to key players at United and Newcastle this season. We all knew Klopp wasn't the 5th best manager in the league last season despite finishing 5th.
But West Ham are not overly talented. Really, there teams below them with more talent and he has them in 6th. It’s taken awhile but he has turned into a top 5-6 mgr in the league.
Bowen, Ward-Prowse and Kudus are very talented and would walk into most sides below them in the league. This feels very much like the narrative surrounding Moyes at Everton where we were told he was overacheiving and then Martinez came in and achieved a higher points tally and got them playing far more exciting football.
Moyes will agree a renewed contract - the West Ham support mostly stuck behind him last year when it was really hard going and whilst some want a sexier bit of skirt, most of the seasoned support are experienced enough to know how far the club has travelled in the last four years.
Looks like he's finally getting his Kalvin Phillips this week - third time lucky. Rumour is that another two or three will be arriving to supplement that.
The achievement of Moyes is above average consistency really for mid-table sides. I agree that managers could probably get more out of this West Ham side (as Martinez did with us) but he's finished 6th, 7th and 14th (Won ECL this season though) and now looks on track for a top 8 finish again. That type of consistency keeps him in a job and to replace him I think you're looking for a De Zerbi type manager to come in and not many of them are around.
He's woeful.
Eh. They’re 8th and the teams ahead of them are what you’d expect. He’s doing what you’d expect David Moyes managing a midtable side to do — be midtable.
Paqueta is a big loss. There’s no reason to watch them when he isn’t playing as they’re so bland otherwise
Paqueta is a big loss. There’s no reason to watch them when he isn’t playing as they’re so bland otherwise
The amount of sympathy he still gets from some over his time at United still amazes me. He's a mid-table manager who should never have gotten anywhere near United
end of the road for him at west ham i think. there was discontent when they were getting results earlier this season, having just won a trophy, so i imagine that will get alot worse
Winning the Europa Conference saved his hide last season. If he hadn't won it he'd be gone. Hammers should move for someone like Potter rather than wait
Moyesey is still a good bottom half manager.
I reckon he gets the sack after that.
It's like ending the top four away hoodoo was a trophy for Moyes, and the season ended there. Haven't won a game since.
0-6 after 65 minutes. What did they do for the rest of the match?
potter to west ham, moyes to palace, hodgson retired. I could see it. I wonder if Potter will hold out and hope for something bigger like Newcastle, or dare I say United.
Had a look on a Hammers forum a while back - when they were doing better than they are now - and their fanbase seemed fairly split on him. Plenty felt that the football was garbage even though they were getting some decent results.
Reminded me of the Ole divide when we were doing ok-ish under him: some looked at the league position and thought we're doing well, while others looked beyond that. I'm guessing more want him out now than when I looked a good few weeks back.
I think naturally the shelf life of a manager at all levels now is about 18 — 36 months. He’s at the tail end of that, I think, with the cup win doing heavy lifting as many allude to.
I think their next 4 games are all against the bottom half of the league. Losing a few of those and it’s probably curtains.
Trying to get him tied up before Liverpool come calling
The West Ham fans won't be happy.