Brilliant, avoid the entire paragraph and point out one thing that leads on to an entirely different subject!
David Gill Transfer warchest v2012
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Brilliant, avoid the entire paragraph and point out one thing that leads on to an entirely different subject!
I can't comprehend how people can still argue against a CM purchase. Apart from the obvious reason there is also nothing wrong with depth is there? I hate this make do fckin attitude that has seeped into the fan base these days our rivals are loading up we should be too.
I hate the "buy our way out of trouble attitude" that has seeped into our fan base these days. So does Sir Alex. Have faith in what we have coming good.
In 2001/2 our central defence had become so much of a problem that it was really costing us in matches, despite our top-notch midfield and forward departments. We had:
Johnsen: injured a lot, getting on
Blanc: legend, too slow and at the end of his career
Gary Neville: Not really a centre back
David May: never played, injured a lot
Wallwork: Not the complete article at the time, ultimately released
Brown: Promising but often injured
Silvestre: Promising but ultimately not a centre back
O Shea: Still learning at the time, but ultimately not a centre back
Lots of bodies, lots of promise, but ultimately there were injury problems for a lot of them and very clear deficiencies in that department which cost us.
That Summer we brought in Rio and won back the league, and to be honest haven't had a defensive crisis (apart from when we had all those injuries the season before last) since then. In Rio we were buying that quality which was needed at the time to ensure that the rest of the team could fulfil their potential, by the security of having a ready-made top class player brought in to shore up the defence.
Sometimes it becomes imperative to do that with one area of the pitch, and in terms of central midfield, that time is now, because we will end up regressing as a team otherwise
Johnsen: injured a lot, getting on
Blanc: legend, too slow and at the end of his career
Gary Neville: Not really a centre back
David May: never played, injured a lot
Wallwork: Not the complete article at the time, ultimately released
Brown: Promising but often injured
Silvestre: Promising but ultimately not a centre back
O Shea: Still learning at the time, but ultimately not a centre back
Lots of bodies, lots of promise, but ultimately there were injury problems for a lot of them and very clear deficiencies in that department which cost us.
That Summer we brought in Rio and won back the league, and to be honest haven't had a defensive crisis (apart from when we had all those injuries the season before last) since then. In Rio we were buying that quality which was needed at the time to ensure that the rest of the team could fulfil their potential, by the security of having a ready-made top class player brought in to shore up the defence.
Sometimes it becomes imperative to do that with one area of the pitch, and in terms of central midfield, that time is now, because we will end up regressing as a team otherwise
What do you propose if carrick gets injured? I'm not particularly fussed about the creative role, we've got 4 players who can do that, if ev or ando don't stay fit and don't step up we can address however I think we can only do that by getting competition/cover for carrick and if they play well then they could play with carrick.
That quote is a tad misleading as it refers specifically to Rooney and Ronaldo. These are two players whom anybody with half a brain could see were potential superstars. And surprise surprise they both developed into world-class performers.
I don't see anywhere near that level of potential in Anderson, Cleverley or Jones. They are good players but United need great players, now more than ever. The simple fact of the matter is the current midfield options are not sufficient to dominate the biggest games. There is no fecking point having a glut of brilliant attacking players in the final third when supported by a midfield who can't provide them with the correct service.
Scholes and Carrick are still the best midfielders at the club, just as they were in 2007. That says it all about the lack of progress in this area.
You think Kagawa will play in a midfield two, but don't think he could play as a winger?
The most baffling poster on the Caf. How have you worked this out?
You think Kagawa will play in a midfield two, but don't think he could play as a winger?
The most baffling poster on the Caf. How have you worked this out?
Yes Midfield two thats what I have been saying all along.
Read the thread you fecking eejit. I'm talking about him at the peak of a midfield 3 behind the striker but dropping deeper into midfield to collect the ball and play possession football.
Show me one time I say he will be played in a midfield two.
Pexbo is kind of right, we've got the bodies we need, at least on paper. However there are some issues that need to be considered
A) United's and England's recent run had shown that its difficult to compete in Europe unless you've got a quality CM. Its time to show some respect to this position and stop believing that defenders or wingers can do a job there.
B) While we thank Giggs/Scholes for giving us another year. This must be the year where they should be sent to the bench for good, knowing that there are better players then them in CM. Its ridiculous to think that we still rely on 37/38 yr olds to inject some needed creativity in CM. Ok Scholes/Giggs are unique but so were players like Robson and Incey. That didn't stopped a young Keane and Scholes to replace them magnificently at quite a young age. Bottom line of the story. Players grow old, their efficiency on the pitch tend to decline and they end up easy prey for younger talent to replace them.
C) United is a big club and like any big club there's no guarantee of a first team place/future. Any player must work his socks off to achieve that and nothing is guaranteed. Juventus is a smaller club then we are. However they have added Asamoah and look set to sign Pogba despite having Italy's CM (Pirlo and Marchisio) + Vidal. If the kids are good enough then they'll earn a first team place. As I said before Fletch ended up first teamer despite having to compete for a first team place with Scholes (in his prime) + new boys Carrick, Ando and Hargreaves.
A) United's and England's recent run had shown that its difficult to compete in Europe unless you've got a quality CM. Its time to show some respect to this position and stop believing that defenders or wingers can do a job there.
B) While we thank Giggs/Scholes for giving us another year. This must be the year where they should be sent to the bench for good, knowing that there are better players then them in CM. Its ridiculous to think that we still rely on 37/38 yr olds to inject some needed creativity in CM. Ok Scholes/Giggs are unique but so were players like Robson and Incey. That didn't stopped a young Keane and Scholes to replace them magnificently at quite a young age. Bottom line of the story. Players grow old, their efficiency on the pitch tend to decline and they end up easy prey for younger talent to replace them.
C) United is a big club and like any big club there's no guarantee of a first team place/future. Any player must work his socks off to achieve that and nothing is guaranteed. Juventus is a smaller club then we are. However they have added Asamoah and look set to sign Pogba despite having Italy's CM (Pirlo and Marchisio) + Vidal. If the kids are good enough then they'll earn a first team place. As I said before Fletch ended up first teamer despite having to compete for a first team place with Scholes (in his prime) + new boys Carrick, Ando and Hargreaves.
I'm not here to argue with that point. Everyone has an opinion on our midfield, and not all of them are in agreement with your own views.
However, I'll put this out there for whoever wants to answer it.
If it is so clear and obvious that we need midfielders, why is our club, and the best manager we'll ever see in our lifetime, not buying one? We spent the best part of £60m last summer. Not one penny of it was for that position.
Not taking any side here, just curious as to how people rationalise the fact that we aren't buying them.
i tend to agree a bit with Pexbo in that we have the numbers. However, what worries me is that we seem to be reluctant to spend because someone seems to think that the likes of Anderson will magically stop getting injured.
Its a chance I wouldn't take, personally.
Its a chance I wouldn't take, personally.
Well this is why I think people question the need for one, because SAF hasn't bought one. And yeah, he is a superb manager, maybe the best ever, but he's also extremely stubborn and the midfielders out there aren't exactly going for cheap right now.
I wouldn't really take that £60m into consideration either, we had to buy DDG, we weren't supposed to buy Jones for another year, and Young was backup to Sanchez (in my eyes anyway). You could also strongly argue that we were in for both Nasri & Sneijder for the midfield but but went wrong, though obviously that can't be proven either way.
I think he has a very bad record when it comes to signing midfielders in contrast to defenders and strikers, even just unlucky. The only one he's bought in the last 10 years who turned out to be a proper success is Carrick (although the jury is still out on Anderson, who cost €30m), so maybe he's reluctant to buy them.
Myself and others thought we should have bought one last summer, and I don't really see how anyone can argue it given the season we had, because that's really why we were out of Europe in the group stage, overrun by a few teams throughout, and mostly importantly of all, had to bring a retired 37 year old back into the team in order to save our season.
I don't question the numbers we have. If you read out the names on paper, it looks like we're pretty well stocked. Carrick, Anderson, Cleverley, Scholes, Fletcher Giggs, Park, Jones. I guess those are the ones people would consider able to play in the 'central midfield'. But Carrick is literally the only reliable one there. Scholes and Giggs are 38/39. Park is well past it. Fletcher hasn't played in 2 years and may never be what he used to be. Jones is clearly not a midfielder and if potentially is, he's a long way away from being one. Anderson has been here 5 years and still looks perma-crocked. Cleverley played 5 good games last season.
Then there's the argument that if we were to buy a good midfielder who can play lots of games, what happens to Anderson and Cleverley, when do they get games? That's nonsense for me, because the ones who should play less and Scholes and Giggs, they're old and can't improve anymore, they should be seen as luxury players and not players we should be looking to give first team exposure ahead of others. There would still be lots of space for Anderson and Cleverley ... if they were actually fit.
Sometimes you can't just look at the numbers we have, many other factors come into account, and I don't see how we could take the risk and go into next season with a midfield like that. Like was pointed out above, we had a very similar situation with our defense years ago, SAF bought Rio, and we won the league again. I fully believe that's all we need to do with the midfield too.
Well put. The number look good superficially and even then there is a quality issue too.
How can you not take the £60m into consideration? It shows that the finances were there, and they were not spent on a midfielder. That can only go to show that the need for strengthening in this position is not viewed by the club as being quite as essential as many fans see it.
Nasri is effectively Kagawa - not going to solve that particular problem. Sneijder I'll grant would have helped, but the cost of the deal was insane.
My personal belief is that there is a element of scapegoating here. All of our problems (to keep it in perspective we were in a position to win the title) are put down to the midfield. Its an easy argument.
I just haven't heard from anyone on this site a single reasonable argument as to why the club don't address such an obvious problem. The only logical conclusion is that Ferguson is actually comfortable with the options he has.
Why isn't it being addressed then? Why buy Ashley Young last year when we could have spent £20m on a midfielder instead?
SAF was always going to buy a new keeper, because we HAD to. He was always going to buy Phil Jones, but he didn't want to for another year, only for the fact that Liverpool came in for him so he HAD to. Young, feck knows, I'd be baffled if the 18m for him had anything to do with us not signing a midfielder. I mean the £60m is irrelevant, or should be irrelevant because it was mainly spent on areas SAF was always going to buy in regardless of whether we buy a midfielder or not.
I don't agree with the bold part, that's not what I've said, a lot of our problems last year were down to injuries and a constant makeshift back four, we probably would've won the league without the injuries. But the midfield played its part too, can you deny that? Do you look back on last year and think our midfield was good enough?
As for the last line, I don't get you. You're saying that because Fergie might be content with the midfield then we should be too, and we shouldn't question whether it's strong enough or needs strengthening? Maybe all we should do on this forum is praise our team then?
Not at all. I'm not in the camp that claims that all is well regardless. I'm saying that the club is full of people significantly more knowledgeable than any of us about football, about our players, about the club, and they are making the decision that we need Ashley Young more than we need a central midfielder - even in the summer that Scholes retires. There has to be a reason for that.
If we had Steve Bruce (random example) managing this club, it might have some merit to claim that he is making bad decisions. Its Ferguson though, he has earned my trust. I trust him to make the best decision. If he doesn't think we need a midfielder, you'd have to be a fool not to at least take that into account.
After all thats been said, we'll probably sign fecking Modric this weekend then this post will be redundant. Or Cleverly and Anderson will have breakthrough seasons, and your posts will be. Who knows.
We're allowed question his decisions Bilbo, he's made a lot of bad ones when it comes to the midfield in the past.
Of course. Doesn't it make you pause though? This midfield thing has been the hot topic for 3 years if not more. In that time we've been pretty successful.
Can you explain this a little bit? I'm a United fan obviously, and i don't like Juventus that much in particular but I do not agree that United is a bigger club then them. We are similar in that aspect, and I doubt that anyone could find enough arguments that we're bigger or smaller than Juve.
The word on twatter is that we are after Moutinho. Must be bollocks
We've been successful because our defense, wingers and forwards are all excellent. Our midfield, not so much.
More fans / Earn more money as a club / more sucsessful (not sure on that)?
I approve, sign him up, provides an awful lot in the centre of the park that we need.
juventus are proven cheats. We are not, i believe that makes us better.
England have excellent defenders, and very good wingers and forwards. The team doesn't work because the England midfield is sub-standard.
Why isn't this affecting the United team in the same way as it does England? United still play very good football and are successful.
Perhaps because they don't have an equally good manager who can make the best out of the resources he has? Also, the chemistry is different and honestly, England's wingers aren't nearly as good as Nani and Valencia who contribute the most to our offense.
Carrick is our only midfielder who'd get a look at top 10 European sides and arguably he wouldn't be a starter at many of them (even though he's clearly a very good player).
I didn't know England had Evra, Vidic, Nani, Valencia, Berbatov, Evans, VDS, Giggs at their disposal in the last 3 years.
Or that their manager is as good as SAF.
We did sign Kleberson and Hargreaves based on international tournaments. There could be something in this.
Well I think Ferguson wanted an additional winger (as Park was on the wane) and Young was available and added some new strengths. He was good value when you consider Downing went to Liverpool for 20m.
In terms of midfielders I think Ferguson is only going to spend when the right player is available. We've made serious moves for people like Nasri, Sneijder, Modric but for various reasons they haven't paid off. I think Ferguson gambled a little last season and it almost paid off.
Our wingers are significantly better than England.
Excellent defence is also arguable when you have Joleon Lescott and Glen Johnson in your first team. Even Terry hasn't been that good in the past twelve months although he used to be a top defender.
Re: moutinho - i think lots of people are doing 2+2 = 5. He s a midfielder, he s portughese, he had a good tournament and united are looking for a midfielder.
Mind you, his agent is not Mendes but a certain Zahavi - anyone remembers Rio's contract fiasco some years ago?
Scholes left last season, so did Hargreaves and another DM option in O'Shea. We also have injury prone Anderson and Fletcher out.
You are seriously suggesting that given that scenario, SAF was right not to buy anyone for that midfield? That is ridiculous Pexbo, and injuries did not cost us the title, what cost us the title when we had an 8 point lead, was having to play Schoes and Carrick in almost every game in the run in.
Only having one defensive minded midfielder meant we could not play an effective 4-5-1 against City, plus we had no-one to sure up the midfield at home to Everton. That is what cost us the title mate, and if you check out our European campaign, you will find we did quite well domestically in a poor league, but in Europe we were so average against anyone who could keep the ball and offer a threat, so every team bar Golati basically.
I know, let's make the same mistake again this season, that way we can go on about our youngsters again in the summer to make us feel better. Trouble with youngsters Pexbo, is hardly any of them make it as expected. If you recall what everybody said when we signed the twins. Along the lines of well that's us sorted for 10 years at full back, while we now find ourselves clamouring for a LB!
The only 2 youngsters to come through our youth in to the first team in the past few years out of all those touted as future stars, are Welbeck and Cleverley, and they both still have it all to prove.
don't even bother debating with Pexbo
Exactly. Carrick is a good player and our only proper first-team midfielder in terms of age, injury recorded, proven etc. Still he would not start for the other teams that we are competing with to win the CL.
We need two classy CM buys to seriously challenge in the CL otherwise it will be a messy affair when we meet Real/Barca/Bayern and possibly a couple of others. Fergie knows this, it is just proving difficult to get our targets recently, particularly in light of the market rate wages for top players now.
In the PL, we would still challenge despite being weak in midfield as we are still better than 18 of the other teams.
He's a fecking idiot.
They both have a great history etc, however at this point in time Juventus are in a much worse situation then we are. We're talking about a club who are still recovering from the calciopoli scandal and have won the league mainly due to other clubs passing from a financial crisis (Inter/Milan). They are nowhere near us in terms of honors won in the past 10 yrs, money etc.
You are right about England not having a manager as good as SAF. However Hodgson has acknowledged that England have a problem in that area. No doubt he'd sign a player if that were permitted.
Ferguson has done no such thing. Criticise the midfield, or sign a player to remedy it.
Doesn't make sense, does it?