Not at all mate. But that doesnt mean that the old boy doesn't drop a bollock now and again.
I genuinely believe that if we had signed a quality midfielder last summer we'd have won the league.
David Gill Transfer warchest v2012
- Thread starter wr8_utd
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Not at all mate. But that doesnt mean that the old boy doesn't drop a bollock now and again.
I genuinely believe that if we had signed a quality midfielder last summer we'd have won the league.
Maybe so but he didn't have it far wrong and we should have won it without one by a large margin.
I genuinely believe that if Anderson and Cleverley didn't have such bad luck we would have won the League.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I'm just not one for buying titles when you have the players there to do it already.
It isn't really hindsight though, most people were saying the exact same thing last summer too.
Nah, not buying any of that. We may in theory have lots of midfielders but Carrick is the only reliable one we have out of all of them.
That midfield is very average for a club like Utd.
Myself and others have said for years that we need to sort our midfield.
We're just going to have to disagree. I agree it's not what we should expect from United but I don't think buying is the answer. I think waiting for the talent we have to mature is a much better idea.
What talent? Anderson and Cleverley are the only two young midfielders we have, the former has had 5 years now and is terribly injury prone, and feck knows how injury prone the latter is either. I don't for a second believe Jones is one and Powell is clearly more of an advanced player.
We have a very unreliable midfield, it's shocking really. I don't understand how any fan can actually sit there and think it's ok to leave it as it is, unless you've got red tinted goggles nailed on to your face.
anyone discussing the necessity of adding quality to our cm is an idiot. best to ignore.
True that
Stupid argument really because if Rooney gets injured, you still have quite a few options.
a) Play hernandez up top with welbeck behind him.
b and the better option) Play a single striker with Kagawa behind him.
There are no such options when you have only 1 player in the entire squad capable of playing a defensive role in midfield though. Rate Ando and Clev's partnership as highly as you want, its your call but even you shouldnt be blind enough to ignore how open and leaky we were with them in the middle.
Every attacking team needs a solid base to cover for them, carrick gives us that. If he gets injured, we'd be fecked as things stand.
So much wrong with this part.
I'l just address a few points. I would have absolutely no problem with Scholes's involvement being drastically reduced if we could get a Martinez. No problem at all. He's a club legend but there comes a time when you have to plan for the future.
I would still give Ando another year but to say he hasnt had his chance is ridiculous. Its not SAFs fault he cannot stay fit for any period of time at a stretch.
Its a shame considering that its got outclassed by Basile's CM and literally humilated by Bilbao's midfield.
SAF used the same thing about the defense (after the treble). I can bring you SAF's quotes about 'Brown being worth twice as Rio' and 'Wallwork being the new Steve Bruce'. At the end of the day, the defense was still in shambles until the club spent 30m on Rio and later on players like Vidic, Heinze and Evra were added to make our defense the world's best defense.
My point is that SAF can be stubborn so I wont be surprised if we dont add a CM. However that doesn't mean that adding a CM is going to be 'bad management'. Its just improving a position we desperately need to strengthen. We can't keep on relying on Scholes/Giggs and we cant go on with Carrick being our only reliable CM.
And please do tell us where you've seen Kagawa playing well in CM. I heard he's a no 10, same as Powell. Jones is a defender btw
You can't buy a midfielder on the assumption "Cleverley and Anderson are likely to be injured", that is the point. You either trust them or you replace them.
As for Jones being a midfielder, I just don't see him as a defender. Not ahead of Rafael at right back and not ahead of Vidic, Ferdinand, Smalling or Evans at Centre back. He's going to be utilized between the both for a while yet so he has to be considered when talking of the midfield otherwise you are stunting another young players growth, whether his long term future is there or not is besides the point, we are playing him in midfield at times to develop him and that is important.
Powell as an "advanced playmaker" is a strange point. Is that not a midfielder? Whether we are talking with one or two strikers ahead of him, it's either with 2 midfielders behind him or 1 in both cases he is counted as part of the midfield and as Kagawa's signing seems to strengthen the possibility of us moving towards this, it only reinforces the strength of our midfield compared to last season and in it's potential for the future.
Striker
Kagawa
Carrick - Scholes
Kagawa
Carrick - Scholes
With the options of:
Powell or Cleverley in the advanced playmaker position.
Cleverley, Anderson or Jones in the deeper midfield two.
There's plenty of options there, plenty of quality and plenty of potential.
As I said though, if we think we can't trust them to be fit then we shouldn't be looking at bringing in yet another player as competition, we should be letting them go and replacing them. We have the numbers already.
I think would be mad not get in another defensively good midfielder. Not a dm, but someone like carrick or fletcher etc who can offer something to the attack but have defensive strengths that mean they can cover for carrick or come in with him when we want to keep it more solid. we're the only top team they I can think off who dont have this option, and regardless of that having cover for carrick is an absolute necessity. Ideally it's someone who's relatively established and also someone with a good track record injury wise. Unless fletcher is a guarantee to be back next season then personally I think this is our biggest priority.
you're on your own here Pexbo. I've argued this endlessly with others before, I'm not going to start again. Anyone who thinks our midfield is good enough and reliable enough is either clueless or on a WUM.
I've said it's not good enough though haven't I. What I am arguing is that buying isn't the answer, giving the players we have the time and patience they need is the answer.
Cleverley or ando or jones are not cover for carrick. Jones looks clueless in the middle and putting him on the most tactically aware position is ridiculous right now. Cleverley has never played that role and ando is not only very inconsistent but is more comfortable having lisence to attack. We need someone who can actually play there comfortably and reliably. If fletcher didn't have his condition then personally beyond concerns over the fitness or ando and clev I wouldn't have problems with the midfield but without another player who can reliably either provide quality cover for carrick or an option alongside him in tougher games then our midfield will be a liability.
Our midfield is fine. Promote a couple more kids and all is good.
No it's not. We don't have enough young midfielders for it to be the answer. In fact we have 2, as I said. Argue all you want about Jones, Kagawa and Powell being midfielders, none of them are, none of them have ever done anything to suggest they are, and it's a bit daft to pin our hopes on thinking they can be.
So where do you see Kagawa and Powell fitting into our team? Who will they line up with?
There was a time when Fletch used to be our 5th choice midfielder behind Scholes and new boys Carrick, Ando and Hargreaves. Guess what? Fletch fought for his place and ended up first teamer again. If you're good enough then you'll end up taking your chances and SAF will play you. Considering that Jones is a defender, Fletch has a career threatening sickness, Giggs/Scholes are kept as a safety valve (for 1 year) and Powell/Kagawa are trequartisti then 4 players competing for 2 positions (Clev, Ando, Carrick and new guy) is really not the end of the day, especially considering that the former two have a long injury track record.
who exactly? Pogba? Morrison?
Tunincliffe, Petrucci, and some of the other million or so kids we have.
So as part of our midfield.
Call it what you want but if they are playing as an attacking midfield they are midfield options and therefore have to be considered as midfielders.
If we are taking a 3 man midfield into consideration then we have both quality and options as I said above and you can add Giggs to the equation.
If Cleverley and Anderson can't get through next season without getting injuries then we have to think about moving one of them on and bringing someone else in but I still think they both deserve time.
If we strenghten this summer, we'll have too many options (will we even have the space in the squad?) and one or two players growth will suffer.
Of Course, I was just drawing that answer out of you. By watching him play I know from his skill set that he also has the technical and physical ability to drop deeper as Meulensteen has already said.
Weve got half a million players capable of becoming first teamers?
What? How is that a part of our central midfield? It's clearly in an advanced role. Kagawa practically plays in the same position Rooney does, I'd barely call him a midfielder.
Oh yay, 39 year old Ryan Giggs, bed ridden Fletcher, 38 year old already retired once Scholes, pie lover Anderson, 5 games last season Cleverley. Not a midfielder Jones.
And one reliable person in Carrick, who is 31.
Jaysus, we are fecking overloaded in that midfield!
Oh yay, 39 year old Ryan Giggs, bed ridden Fletcher, 38 year old already retired once Scholes, pie lover Anderson, 5 games last season Cleverley. Not a midfielder Jones.
And one reliable person in Carrick, who is 31.
Jaysus, we are fecking overloaded in that midfield!
So clever! I forgot you're the same person who thinks Anderson will still be one of the worlds best midfielders soon.Anyway, I'm done with this, everything you've said has been argued before, and it's all very, very wrong.
We need to buy a midfielder.
How on earth did we get the same amount of points as £500m Man City with that rabble?
Kagawa will play deeper than he did at Dortmund, I guarantee it.
Dunno mate, we got beaten 6-1 by them with it too, and lost the league, and went out of the CL in the group stages, and got battered by Athletic, and lost to Crystal Palace in the League Cup, and Liverpool in the 4th round of the FA Cup. But hey, we finished level on points, good for us!
If you guarantee it then it'll surely happen. May as well concede defeat now.
Anyway, I'm done with this, everything you've said has been argued before, and it's all very, very wrong.
We need to buy a midfielder.
Yes, I've constantly argued he's the next Xavi. Or, I've argued that he's a very good midfielder when not injured and has changed our play for the better. If you watched any of our games when he played you'll see the positive influence his driving runs, holding the ball up and pass and move play had on our game.
Carrick will be 32 next summer. God knows how old Scholes and Giggs will be.
So let's just pin all our hopes on Anderson, the same lad who never really looked like a midfielder to begin with and has a worrying injury record.
What could possibly go wrong?
So let's just pin all our hopes on Anderson, the same lad who never really looked like a midfielder to begin with and has a worrying injury record.
What could possibly go wrong?
I hope kagawa doesn't play deeper and certainly not as a midfielder. Would make no sense to change how he plays considering as he is now is something we could do with. Not to mention from his murmurs he seems to think hell play in the hole.
But regardless as I said it doesn't address the problem as we only have carrick as a natural reliable midfielder. Scholes and giggs can't play every game, need protection and aren't suited to some games. To play one of them you need someone like carrick.
Clev and ando to me look like they'd be more comfortable in a 3 and regardless of the formation they to me look like they'd need someone to give them some sort of defensive cover. You can throw up the arsenal and spurs games but both were weak when we played them and got a lot of chances in each game.
They'd need a carrick IMO to play at their bests d certainly would need that in tougher games. Not to mention their fit was concerns.
So that leaves fletcher the most unreliable player we have fitness wise because of the nature of his problem.
Leaving ourselves with one reliable, defensively competent midfielder is just not a gamble worth taking. For me it cost us the title and the group stage of the cl, and if we don't address it then I can easily see it happening again. There's nothing wrong with competition, I'd rather clev or ando earn their way in and don't just get spots because they're the only options we have.
But regardless as I said it doesn't address the problem as we only have carrick as a natural reliable midfielder. Scholes and giggs can't play every game, need protection and aren't suited to some games. To play one of them you need someone like carrick.
Clev and ando to me look like they'd be more comfortable in a 3 and regardless of the formation they to me look like they'd need someone to give them some sort of defensive cover. You can throw up the arsenal and spurs games but both were weak when we played them and got a lot of chances in each game.
They'd need a carrick IMO to play at their bests d certainly would need that in tougher games. Not to mention their fit was concerns.
So that leaves fletcher the most unreliable player we have fitness wise because of the nature of his problem.
Leaving ourselves with one reliable, defensively competent midfielder is just not a gamble worth taking. For me it cost us the title and the group stage of the cl, and if we don't address it then I can easily see it happening again. There's nothing wrong with competition, I'd rather clev or ando earn their way in and don't just get spots because they're the only options we have.
I've been saying for two seasons that we won't buy a midfielder for the exact reason Pexbo has argued.
Time will tell.
If we buy, so be it, I think it'll have an adverse affect on Cleverley and Anderson but they might be injured so it might not matter.
If we don't buy and they are injured again then there will be some exits and some reinforcements next year.
If we buy, so be it, I think it'll have an adverse affect on Cleverley and Anderson but they might be injured so it might not matter.
If we don't buy and they are injured again then there will be some exits and some reinforcements next year.
As I said before, when one department on the pitch becomes that much of a problem a quick fix is sometimes essential, regardless of a desire to keep to our values.
We did it with Rio when our defence was dodgy and now we need to do it with a top CM
We did it with Rio when our defence was dodgy and now we need to do it with a top CM
Fergie has spent around 70mil this summer and last.
Fergie seems to think deep lying CM isnt a problem by the looks of things.
Fergie seems to think deep lying CM isnt a problem by the looks of things.
What is Fergie to do with Fletcher,Anderson,Cleverley?
Here is the big problem. He has to get rid of Anderson IMO. Cleverley cost nothing and isnt on big wages. Fletcher will be given every opportunity to prove his fitness.
That's it, ignore my last post.
Anyway Pexbo, you've convinced me, I now see your logic. Even though our midfield isn't good enough and cost us last year and could cost us again this year, we shouldn't buy anyone in order to ... you know ... make it better. Instead we should wait for our youth, (who we've already waited on for years by not signing a midfielder), even though more of our active midfielders are over the age of 30 than under it, and our 2 most promising young reserve midfielders have both been sold, therefore we don't really have much youth, unless you include the midfielders you've named who aren't actually midfielders at all.
Ah yes, great logic.
Anyway Pexbo, you've convinced me, I now see your logic. Even though our midfield isn't good enough and cost us last year and could cost us again this year, we shouldn't buy anyone in order to ... you know ... make it better. Instead we should wait for our youth, (who we've already waited on for years by not signing a midfielder), even though more of our active midfielders are over the age of 30 than under it, and our 2 most promising young reserve midfielders have both been sold, therefore we don't really have much youth, unless you include the midfielders you've named who aren't actually midfielders at all.
Ah yes, great logic.
No money.
Injuries cost us last year, not quality.
I understand what you are saying, but at the same time we have Giggs and Scholes as two of the options. If we were to bring in a new midfielder and Anderson/Cleverley manage to stay fit I'm fairly positive it would be Giggs and Scholes sacrificed rather than the younger two. I don't think Giggs/Scholes should be a factor at all to whether or not we buy another midfielder, and as harsh as it may be Fletcher is about the same.
But, I completely disagree with your point that Anderson/Jones can cover for Carrick. Neither have the discipline for it at all.