I'm just waiting for our Claudio Bravo moment when De Gea does finally leave and we end up with a "modern keeper" who's rubbish at actually doing what goalkeepers are supposed to do.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
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I'm just waiting for our Claudio Bravo moment when De Gea does finally leave and we end up with a "modern keeper" who's rubbish at actually doing what goalkeepers are supposed to do.
Well… I guess it’s just a different school of thought. Ideally keepers don’t have to make a ton of saves (if the rest of the team does it defensive job well), but the saves are much more impactful on the overall results than, say, routine cross collection or passing from the back. Someone in the past (SAF?) has said a great keeper is worth 10 points a season or something like that - because it’s from making saves that would otherwise have resulted in goals. Keepers making howlers instead of good saves also don’t instill confidence in the rest of the defensive set up, which is of course a recipe for disaster.
So I’d argue that shot stopping is just as important as any attribute for keepers.
You bring up an interesting point, but I'm not sure if I agree.
Let's start with crosses. There are plenty of crosses each game, especially against weaker opponents. But we're not looking for crosses that are ill-advised or impossible for goalkeepers to attempt to pick up because they are so far from goal. And we are not looking for crosses that even amateur goalkeepers can pick up. We are looking for the crosses that will test a goalkeeper. Crosses that separate the average PL keeper and the world class keepers. How many of these crosses happen during a game? Honestly not that many. And what are generally the result of failure? It very rarely leads to an actual goal. And it's not like De Gea automatically will fail to pick up all of these crosses either.
Then we have kicking. How many goals or chances are actually a result of brilliant passing from the goalkeeper? It's not a useless skills of course, but can it really measure up against making impressive saves?
I don't have the data, but if a United goalkeeper has to face 2 or 3 difficult shots per game on average then the difference between a world class shot-stopper and a good shot-stopper will be huge in the long run.
All the games I've watched proved otherwise.
But that doesn't answer the question on who that person is
Vds came in and was replacing Carrol/ Howard. That was a big improvement in every aspect.
Who is the keeper we can get that will improve upon ddg in the important factors?
If we're talking stability, then ddg on reduced wages makes more sense than most of the options out there. There is no standout option that we can get (unless we get new owners who give us 300m to spend which means we can get a striker and midfielder (which is more important) and still have the ability to get a goalkeeper too)
I am sure there are options out there if scouted properly. But if we spend big there's no guarantee whether we will get an Allison or whether we will get a Kepa.
Getting a keeper for cheaper might work if the keeper is willing to come in and fight for the position (but we would be silly to let ddg go for a keeper like that)
Shot-stopping is still absolutely the single most important aspect of goalkeeping.
But even if it accounts for 60% of the entire value a goalkeeper provides in itself, that still leaves a lot of value in the sweeping, passing, claiming etc. And the better a team is, the more the balance shifts towards those other traits.
Already this season De Gea is facing 16% fewer shots than he did last season. Which means his one strength as a goalkeeper comes into play 16% less frequently. If we were performing in line with this season's two title challengers (which is the aim), it would be coming into play 41-47% less frequently.
Some wonderful saves yesterday, but that's nothing new; De Gea does that. What caught my eye the most, was his distribution which was absolutely flawless for the full 90 minutes. World class performance.
Read my second non-bolded paragraph.
DDG has still been saving United on more than a few occasion...Marcus, Casemiro and Shaw are getting the plaudits but De Gea saved late on against Wolves to secure the 3 points.
He is in good form this season...hopefully he can agree to a sensible wage and sign his new contract.
He is in good form this season...hopefully he can agree to a sensible wage and sign his new contract.
Re-watching highlights I noticed that Shaw’s goal started with some passing around the back featuring a vertical pass by De Gea along the ground. Which you just didn’t see in previous seasons. The effect ETH is having on him is as big as any of the outfield players. Great to see.
He's been doing since pre-season and most famously at the start of the regular season against Brentford also
People need to stop claiming we need another GK. He has improved with his feet and there are almost nobody thats better than him on the line. We should and need to focus our money somewhere else.
Turns out he can play from the back and his ball distribution is decent. Of course thats because the manager must have told him what to do and the coaches coached him. Not flapping their arms in the air shouting "Be a modern Keeper!!"
He really isn't. People seem to exaggerate his saves and make out that he's constantly making wonder saves that almost no other keeper would do. Yes he has the occasional one where you don't expect the keeper to make it, but the vast majority of his saves are ones that your keeper is expected to make, and if they don't it would be a mistake.
Sign him up! DdG is world class. His shot stopping is still top drawer and his passing is getting alot better under ten Hag. Shows what a good manager can do to improve a player when they practice those skills.
Shot stopping is still the most important skill a keeper can have. You can't teach that. You either have it or you don't. Reduce his wages and sign him up is a no brainer.
Lastly besides the RM fax fiasco, he has been a loyal plus a top professional for us. Something that's very important for team chemistry. You never hear a pep from him. No stupid videos. No starting up a brand and promoting it. He is a perfect role model.
Shot stopping is still the most important skill a keeper can have. You can't teach that. You either have it or you don't. Reduce his wages and sign him up is a no brainer.
Lastly besides the RM fax fiasco, he has been a loyal plus a top professional for us. Something that's very important for team chemistry. You never hear a pep from him. No stupid videos. No starting up a brand and promoting it. He is a perfect role model.
That's what makes DdG a top keeper. No only does he make the regular saves, he also makes the ones that not many other keepers can make. That's what gets us more points in a season.
Surprise surprise! What we needed was a modern manager!
There aren't that many of those truly incredible saves though. Yes there's a few (although it should be worth noting that he's spent the majority of the previous four years actually being a net negative and letting in a lot of goals he should have been saving), but not that many. It is a fair thought that somebody who comes out and claims the crosses, comes out and sweeps the ball higher (allowing our defenders to maintain a higher line), who finds the right passes, might overall concede less goals than somebody who just sits on his line and makes a handful of amazing saves each season.
De Gea has certainly improved this season, but we're less than half way through it. He started last season fairly well as well, before falling away badly in the second half. Will he do the same again? Hell even this season he started terribly, so it's been less than half a season.
I certainly hope that he can maintain his good form, and perhaps even get back to his form of 17/18 or before. But recent history of the last four seasons makes me doubtful, and I find a lot of people seem to be ignoring that they ever happened.
Did you not realise that the only two options are De Gea or an open goal? That's how these peoples minds work.
We'll ignore that he's still a net negative of -2.1 overall this season on PSxG, putting him 14th in the league, which historically has been the one thing he's good at. We'll also ignore that his (greatly improved in fairness) sweeping is still way down as the 16th best in the league and he's still the 18th most likely goalkeeper in the league to deal with a cross into the box.
He's much improved overall, the understanding between him/Varane/Martinez is clearly substantially better than the understanding between him/Lindelof/Maguire but that doesn't mean he's anywhere near good enough in the long term. If we want to press higher up the pitch as per Ten Hag's previous style of play at Ajax he's always going to hold us back, even yesterday there were two or three occasions defenders had to drop to deal with balls because he wouldn't come out to deal with them.
I seem to remember high profile, retired keepers saying it was much harder to save shots when you weren't facing as many, i.e. it was easier to concentrate and save as a keeper under constant barrage, rather than being a keeper who was called in to action very few times a game.
We all saw how Henderson compared when given the chance, he may have been great for Sheffield United because he was constantly called into action and kept concentration but as soon as he played for us, where he wasn't always called into action, there were a few howlers there.
There were, but less than what De Gea was making at the same time. I've always found it strange that people hold three mistakes against a fairly inexperienced keeper, but ignore the hugely experienced keeper in the same team was making more mistakes more consistently over a longer time-period. Especially when the younger keeper was better at most other things and our defence as a whole improved significantly at the exact same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Henderson was the one for the long-term or anything. He absolutely deserved some criticism. But it was noticeable that there were some certain people who would go on like he was making mistakes constantly, and they happened to be the same people who would pretend that De Gea was fine and wasn't making regular mistakes of his own.
Hope we don't offer him more than 200k p/w. 375k was always too much and ridiculous amount.
I'm not claiming that De Gea hasn't been well below par (with quite a few howlers) these past few seasons, it's why Henderson got a serious look in at being 1st choice in the first place.
At the moment De Gea seems to have turned the corner (form wise) and cut out the howlers completely. As such my post was in relevance in finding a suitable replacement, now, to De Gea, that a keeper coming from a team that he was busy in, to us where he'd be less busy, there's a major attribute of concentration which could play a massive factor in how that new keeper performs/doesn't perform
Me personally, I think De Gea has turned a corner and is being developed properly (teaching an old dog new tricks) and I'd be happy to pursue with him as first choice even going on into the next 2 seasons (should his good form persist) even if his distribution may not be his strongest asset (because the shot stopping when called upon is more important)
Ever since he joined 29th June 2011, made his debut in August the same year against Manchester City we have been debating about his aerial abilities, passing capability and had 50% of the fan base claiming him being one of the best (some say the best) and the other half doesn't rate at all and won't give him credit no matter his performances.
For me, he is so far behind on my "to fix" list (for us a club, everything included - staff, players, Old Trafford, Carrington, new owners).
Keep him for 5-6 more years, maybe 1-2-3 years as number 1, then rotating or backup and then in the club if he would be interested in a manager role maybe (that is if he is good at learning out).
For me, he is so far behind on my "to fix" list (for us a club, everything included - staff, players, Old Trafford, Carrington, new owners).
Keep him for 5-6 more years, maybe 1-2-3 years as number 1, then rotating or backup and then in the club if he would be interested in a manager role maybe (that is if he is good at learning out).
The problems exist and it's upto ten Hag to decide when and how he will want to navigate it. And once he decides to navigate it, and hopefully brings in a well rounded keeper, we will see smoother build up play even against the most aggressive pressing sides imo.
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Great saves against Bournemouth but still causes confusion amongst the defence with his reluctance to sweep.
He needs to be more proactive with loose balls behind his defence.
He needs to be more proactive with loose balls behind his defence.
He seems to sweep fine when he has defenders in front of him he trusts. Clearly that is not the case with Maguire and Lindelöf.
Who is an realistic option for us? We have FAR bigger issues than him right now, especially given how much he has improved but our funds are severely limited.
One of the biggest legends of the club. He will play for us until he's 40, and I don't mind.
People still dont give him enough credit. There are not many better keepers around and his flaws are overstated. Playing out from the back has massively improved for example. I hope he stays, as other goalkeepers now are not better than him
This doesn't make sense to me, most keepers even in previous eras kept their abilities till when they were 40, what makes you think De gea will suddenly lose his in the mid-30s when it's now we're seeing footballers in general play on for longer?
Same here.
I especially want him to stay during ETH'e tenure so he can have the trophies his abilities (especially at his peak) deserves. We've been wasting his good years, let him win with us now and really secure his legend status with more trophies ( provided he keeps playing at a good level like he's doing now, and even better)
He's having a good run but he still has huge flaws. We're basically never expecting our keeper to come out and claim a cross which is a huge downside. It's tricky because he has been a great servant to the club and a new keeper might be even worse.
Like Ronaldo has gone, Beckham, Keane etc. in the past, sometimesit doesn't matter how big you are if you don't fit the profile of what the team needs you have to go.
I've been saying it for ages, outside of the pure reflex saves he's just not that good, the eye test can tell you that and the stats prove it, most people just choose to ignore it because of the odd ridiculous save.
While he's about goalkeeper is not a priority. Once everything else is sorted we can probably look at a replacement for him.
I really don't think we need to replace him as long as he's playing like that, he's clearly working hard on distribution, and has regained the form we know he was capable of, in terms of shot stopping. Still has some flaws, but if we aren't losing games due to them then we have far more important positions to fill first, and he loves the club and can set records here.
I'm not saying that we don't have bigger issues but the reality is if we want to play a higher line more in line with Ten Hag's past then he is still an issue. At present we protect him very well, we defend deep and do not ask him to do work he isn't comfortable with - the biggest example of that is not asking him to deal with crosses at all, which is a huge improvement on last season because defenders were expecting him to come for crosses and he wasn't doing it, whereas this season defenders are dealing with crosses themselves so that micro-delay that was allowing strikers to get ahead of defenders, isn't there. In addition, he is sweeping a lot more than last season but it is not natural to him and you see him thinking about it before going out to the ball more often than not which causes a slight delay and hampers his chances of getting to balls that should be his all day - for example the occasions where Lindelof sprinted back into his own half on Tuesday to pick up the ball unchallenged rather than the keeper coming out for it. Like I say, these are issues that we are dealing with well as a team but it's a plaster rather than a permanent solution.
In terms of realistic options, Yann Sommer will likely be available again in the summer once Neuer is fit, David Raya will only have a year left on his contract, I think Robert Sanchez and Yassine Bonnou will be down to the last two years on their delas; Mamardashvili was available for a reasonable fee last year and has only built on his reputation this season, but even after a good season Valencia don't tend to sell players for ridiculous valuations, heck Ajax are about to sign Rulli from Villareal for like £10m. There's plenty of realistic options out there that don't cost the earth and would allow Ten Hag's style to be implemented earlier.
I think thats fair.
In regards to his sweeping, I do think he seems more confident in doing it when its behind Varane and Martinez. The communication of our backline when playing with Maguire and Lindelöf seems to be very bad and I think that effects De Gea and his nerves quite a bit.
Raya would be a great choice and if we get new owners probably even realistic.
But it has to be of that caliber, otherwise I am not certain it will truly be an upgrade.
Diogo Costa was a nerve wreck at times at the World cup and he would come under much more pressure in the Premier League. I have similar worries about other keepers from the Leagues in Portugal and Spain. They simply dont face anything close to the agression and speed which is present in the Premier League.
Reflex speed is one of the first things to go with age.
He's always been capable of pulling off fantastic saves, nothing new in seeing him do that. It's his willingness to come off his line and sweep and his Distribution that's been the big improvement.
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