Not sure what this is.
The guy said it was obvious that De Gea was one of the worst at sweeping and distribution so I showed him stats that said he was above PL average at those things.
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Not sure what this is.
The guy said it was obvious that De Gea was one of the worst at sweeping and distribution so I showed him stats that said he was above PL average at those things.
The magnitude of the difference in expected goals for each of those stats individually is tiny over the course of the 13 games we’d played at that point in the season. 0.07 expected goals prevented by sweeping, for example, over the course of 13 games is barely (but is technically) above average.
They are relative to the average Premier League goalkeeper and mean he was, up to that point in the season, statistically average at everything, except for cross claiming where he is actively bad, costing us 2 expected goals over those 13 games.
The tweet effectively states he’s an average Premier League goalkeeper on all metrics, bar cross claiming, where he is terrible. It also reinforces yet again that he is an average shot-stopper. The fact that De Gea has improved from poor to average in some areas makes him an average keeper seems like a pyrrhic victory to me.
Sticking with De Gea on the basis that he isnt bad is accepting mediocrity. None of us want an average Premier League standard player in any other position, why would goalkeeper be any different?
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You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.
The guy said he was obviously the worst and I just wanted to correct him.
Right but you're using data from November right from this dude? Give us upto date info.
Because from that same date, to make ddg an average goalkeeper overall using the same stats, you have to discount game
So are you agreeing that he's the 17th best PL keeper?
His best strength according you is shot stopping. So if he did the 80% thing of importance that you argued, he should have stopped us getting battered. So he didn't do his job. Do you agree?
That’s fair to say, perhaps it isn’t right of me to continue where we left off the other day when I ran out of posts.
Again, the guy said he was obviously the worst at those, sweeping and distribution, things and I showed him that's not actually true.
I know so, again, I'm asking you the questions which you avoided:
If he's not the worst at those attributes, are you agreeing that DDGs the 17th best PL keeper for that same time period of stats you chose?
Based on the stats I provided from the same fug for the Liverpool match, and given your argument previously on goal prevention and it's importance, do you agree ddg didn't do his job against Liverpool?
Beyond stats and performances I get the impression he’s just not happy or enjoying football at the moment and hasn’t for a while.
The failed Real move, the disastrous World Cup and being dropped by the national team, having to play under a series of managers in dysfunctional teams behind poor defences, being heavily criticised for his shortcomings by his own fans. His club are stalling on a new contract and want to pay him less than what he’s currently on. These must all have a cumulative impact on his outlook over time.
His home life seems a bit complicated too with his wife regularly back in Spain for career purposes, that must be rough with a young kid. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a bit homesick.
Add to that his buddy Juan is now in Turkey
Every time he’s interviewed he just seems a bit flat if not depressed.
I’m not defending his performances, I just feel a bit bad for the guy sometimes.
The failed Real move, the disastrous World Cup and being dropped by the national team, having to play under a series of managers in dysfunctional teams behind poor defences, being heavily criticised for his shortcomings by his own fans. His club are stalling on a new contract and want to pay him less than what he’s currently on. These must all have a cumulative impact on his outlook over time.
His home life seems a bit complicated too with his wife regularly back in Spain for career purposes, that must be rough with a young kid. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a bit homesick.
Add to that his buddy Juan is now in Turkey
Every time he’s interviewed he just seems a bit flat if not depressed.
I’m not defending his performances, I just feel a bit bad for the guy sometimes.
Okay you've both asked lots of things so here's what I think overall.
I think this season he's not been at his shot stopping best but as recently as last season he was and was, along with Allison, the best shot stopper in the league.
I think he's been improving at his sweeping and distribution to the point where he has played a big part in our fantastic form. I really don't mind him not coming for crosses because I keep seeing goalkeepers costing there teams goals by doing just that.
I think there has been 1 outstanding keeper in the league the past 2 seasons and he plays for our arch rivals so isn't coming to us. I think the difference between De Gea and the rest is negligible.
I also think De Gea has the ability to further improve his sweeping and distribution, Betis notwithstanding, and regain his 2022 shot stopping form.
The team has massively blipped and he has too this season but his general play over the vast majority of games has been fantastic, winning us points many times.
Furthermore, I have no problem with criticism of him, but I think some of the gleeful ridiculing, by some on here over the past week, of any United player, let alone a United legend has been despicable. You'd barely get it on RAWK.
I agree that De Gea had a good shot-stopping season last season and is having an average/poor one this season. Where we disagree, is that the three prior seasons, he wasn't much better than he has been this season. As such, last season looks to be the anomaly and what we're seeing now is his current level as a shot-stopper.
He has improved this season as a sweeper and ball player, though he is now merely average at this, rather than amongst the league's worst. Expecting a 31 year old to become Ederson, Alisson or Neuer level at these things at this stage is unrealistic and we should be aiming for best in class.
His performance against crosses is poor. Harrison's model referenced in the tweets earlier takes into account the negative impact of a failed claim (he put out an interesting tweet about a mistake Ederson made when failing to deal with a cross after coming out to punch and how his model punishes this). Despite the fact that he makes less mistakes when claiming crosses, compared to Ederson for example, he's still a net negative compared to the average goalkeeper because he comes for so many fewer, around five times less than average!
Whilst I agree Alisson is head and shoulders better and more well-rounded than the other Premier League goalkeepers, every facet, bar shot-stopping, in which he is more down than up of late, has De Gea either mid-pack or lower. In last season's analysis by Harrison, De Gea ranked lowest of the big 6 goalkeepers for goals prevented overall, despite the fact that he was having a stronger season on shot-stopping. Ederson ended up on a similiar amount because despite being a much weaker shot-stopper because he is much better at everything else. When his shot-stopping isn't elite (most of the last five seasons), De Gea becomes a net negative.
We shouldn't be restricted to the Premier League only when looking for alternatives, someone like Maignan is an Alisson level talent, and Costa, Samba and Mamardashvilli are all excellent shot stoppers who can play, with high potential.
I hope I haven't seemed to be "gleefully ridiculing" De Gea. In the thread about his culpability in the Liverpool game, I clearly stated he wasn't to blame for the scoreline or result and repeatedly defended him on that particular point. De Gea has a been a great servant for the club, I just don't think he's good enough anymore.
Man Utd 0:0 Southampton
Some standard saves but poor mentality wasting time on multiple occasions.
Of course, his passing and kicking were also terrible.
Of course, his passing and kicking were also terrible.
He got very very lucky with that first 'great save' from the close range header. It was a high floated ball that just about any other keeper in the league comes out and easily catches or punches away, and his refusal to do so gave the attacker an extremely good chance. Luckily for De Gea the header came pretty much straight at him and his good reflexes allowed him to save it. It was the classic example of what people talk about when they say that he causes his own problems that he is sometimes able to fix with a good save (and sometimes he doesn't).
The Walcott 1v1 save was a good one, although Walcott messed the opportunity up that much I think it might have been going wide anyway. Still a good save though.
His passing at the start of the game was looking decent, but it quickly went downhill after that.
The Walcott 1v1 save was a good one, although Walcott messed the opportunity up that much I think it might have been going wide anyway. Still a good save though.
His passing at the start of the game was looking decent, but it quickly went downhill after that.
You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
He catches a lofted cross, with their players are deep in our penalty box at 89+ mins, I feel excited seeing he actually claims a ball and starts to move forward. Cue disappointment that he also feels excited knowing he caught a ball and decides to hold onto it for 10 seconds allowing their players, which is 11 against 10 to get back to shape.
Love it.
He does this often. I anticipate a quick throw but he holds on to it and then apologises for not releasing it sooner.
No keeper is getting that cross but it also wasn't a great save. I'd expect most keepers to make it.You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
The Walcott one was though
I think the Walcott one was because he kinda held his line and didn't rush out for the easy chip. The longer he kept his position the more Walcott had to think and thus didn't cut across to make the chance easier.
I think it was a typical ddg game. Few good saves but you would hope your keeper makes them.
Distribution won't improve and his presence in the box won't either. He will never be a strong commanding figure
He is totally out of his comfort zone doing anything else that making saves. The ball has to be crossed at him so that he catches it in air, I felt like they made a lot of those lofted crosses today which were quite easy to intercept.
His passing is comical at the moment and no confidence to do anything else than launch it. The pass that bounced over Shaw was almost funny. I know there's element of bad luck here, but it had to be Dave.
One good save from Wallcot shot, not sure it was going in but still.
I also liked how he caught the ball in 90' and let everybody just calm down instead od launching attack.
NOT
His passing is comical at the moment and no confidence to do anything else than launch it. The pass that bounced over Shaw was almost funny. I know there's element of bad luck here, but it had to be Dave.
One good save from Wallcot shot, not sure it was going in but still.
I also liked how he caught the ball in 90' and let everybody just calm down instead od launching attack.
NOT
His kicking out of the park is just tiresome.
One thing I don't get is when he launches it why is it always centrally where it's crowded with opposition and never out wide where it increases the chances of either winning the ball or decreases chances of them hitting it back at us.
Yep. I’m his BIGGEST critic for DDG and crosses but no way he should be even coming for that.You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
They seem correct according to fbref. It's which percentile they fall in. Just remember to contextualize the stats with each team's different position and style. I have already appointed a session with my therapist after gazing upon that crosses stopped %.
The above is the fbref data from which the chart maker pulled their numbers. Other than save percentage, they have charted percentile for all the other categories. It's also why I said the following in the other thread:
Again, I'm not saying De Gea's numbers aren't bad, but either the chart maker's understanding of data analysis is poorer than De Gea's % of crosses stopped, or they're doing this to deliberately mislead.
You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
Why? Varane covers the distance in the time and manages to stop and turn around. It's a little chip onto the edge of the six yard box it's not drilled or whipped in.
If he was willing to and commited to getting there he would beat Walcott to it no problem. The problem is he isn't and wasn't. He makes the save but we then come under concerted pressure and have to defend 3 corners on the bounce of the back of it.
A good proactive keeper claims that and launches a counter attack. And sends the message to the oppo that you can't just float balls into the six yard box, because if you do your getting countered on.
It was a slow floated chip. Look at how far the likes of Varane and Walcott himself travel between those two pics. Walcott literally takes seven steps or so, whereas De Gea would have had to take about three from his starting position and obviously has the extra length of his arms to then make contact.You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
You must be fecking lightning then mate, because I certainly don't move that fast.
There's a lot of crosses he should be coming for, but this wasn't one of them.
Great save.
Courtesy of @GifLord
@MadDogg is right. Look at De Gea's position in the whole sequence leading to the header. He literally takes a half step back, which doesn't make sense. If it's a low cross near the front post, he's not ready for it and neither would he be, if it was going to the penalty spot or the back post with his lack of movement/being on his heels. It was a fairly 'standard' save. Should note that Shaw was poor there too. Had the guy behind him, decides to take a look at De Gea (?), set his heels and then reacts after the fact the cross comes.
He did well for the Walcott one by coming out and closing the space but it was very poor from Walcott tbh and Martinez did great to cover.
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No he isn't. De Gea has to react given his line of sight. It's easier for Walcott, who knows the ball is coming toward him. He makes an initial assumption of the ball coming to him so he tries to get around the defender (making his run any standard forward does), then he re-adjusts mid flight to where the ball is going. What is there to think about? Varane doesn't have much to think about either. Once the ball goes over him, he's free to go towards the goal as that's his job.
A goalkeeper has to be more careful with his positioning and claiming of crosses. Now if the line of sight was clearer, then I would agree.
A goalkeeper has to be more careful with his positioning and claiming of crosses. Now if the line of sight was clearer, then I would agree.
Walcott anticipates the ball going into that area because he sees the player look and set himself to chip it in. So he starts to make his run
De Gea sees exactly the same and rocks back onto his heels and quite happily allows a ball to drop into a very dangerous area.
He should be already taking a step out as the player starts to shape to chip it. At that point it's quite clear that there was a no shot coming, and that the danger is from the cross itself.
Then as soon as he sees it 2 side steps and straight into to his hands Infront of Walcott. He probably wouldn't even have to jump.
There is no excuse every other PL keeper claims that cross easily. Ours makes a camera save because the finish was poor and we then spend the next 5 minutes or so defending numerous corners.
I've been one of his critics and i maintain the notion that we should be actively looking for an upgrade next summer, but i don't understand the fixation on this particular cross. If the manager showed a video of this to the players, his first comment would probably be: "Luke, come on, mate. For the love of God, you know he's there and he only wants to do one thing".
Ddg, luke and awb were all poor for different reasons. But ddg did make the same so he's less poor?
Edit: actually That whole sequence is a mess. casemiro too. Why's he going to ground like that
AWB giving the ball away then not even doing much to stop the cross. He just stands.
Shaw is caught out (seen that happen quite a bit)
Think ddg came out looking the best from that whole thing tbh
Edit: actually That whole sequence is a mess. casemiro too. Why's he going to ground like that
AWB giving the ball away then not even doing much to stop the cross. He just stands.
Shaw is caught out (seen that happen quite a bit)
Think ddg came out looking the best from that whole thing tbh
Agreed.
As for the bolded, tbh I wouldn't say every other keeper would make it 'easily' because if I saw a keeper do it, I would say 'well done'. It was bit of a chaotic situation so it would require an alert and somewhat brave keeper to step forwards just before the cross comes in and then adjust to claim it.
The issue is that De Gea is never 'brave' or proactive in these situations. His movement of lack thereof is basically Lindelof levels of backtracking when shepherding a player i.e 'he didn't make an obvious mistake, as he didn't get dribbled past and waited for backup'. It's a really passive and low risk/low individual gain strategy, which is actually net negative overall for the team.
Real Betis 0:1 Man Utd
Made decent saves, was impressed with his starting positions for some of their attacks which helped narrow down the chance. Made himself big on a few occasions too.
Kicking as expected
Kicking as expected
Thought his distribution was good today: faster than usual and started 2 attacks from risky passes.
Very weak on the 1st 1-v-1 which went wide. Thought he was heading for a prolonged slump, but good after that, including the next 1-v-1. If he did touch the shot going to the post, it was a really good save.
Wasn't seriously tested but I thought it was one of his better performances this season. Did most of the bread and butter basics really well. Collected crosses, rushed out and made himself big for 1 on 1s, a few smart saves and steady in his distribution.
To be fair, he didn't have a lot to do, but did it well. Played some decent passes out, some of which led to opportunities at the other end. Just did the basics you expect from a keeper and he went entirely under the radar with a solid performance. I'd take that every week over doing feck all else and making a world class save that has people jizzing their pants and claiming him to be the best in the world.
He's noticeably playing that bit higher now too, to be honest looks like he knows his position at the club is in the balance. He's definitely trying to show he can the type of keeper that ETH wants. I personally don't think he can change that much to make it work.
I think part of the issue with DDG is that most of us look at the keeper position far too seriously. Its a bit like being a striker in some regards. A massive part of being a keeper is giving yourself the best chance to make a save. Alisson is absolutely world class at this. His reactions are good but what he is fantastic at is being in the right place at the right time. Rushing to narrow the angle at the right time etc.
DDG is not this. On reflex saves he is truly special at times. The problem is, in all other aspects of the game he is sub par. You watch him pull a save off that few other keepers would make and its hard to argue he isn't elite. What you miss is that hes let in 3 goals he shouldn't have because he didn't give himself a good chance to make the save. He didn't narrow the angle as he should, he didn't claim a cross like he should etc.
Will be interesting in the summer to see what happens with our goalkeeper situation.
DDG is not this. On reflex saves he is truly special at times. The problem is, in all other aspects of the game he is sub par. You watch him pull a save off that few other keepers would make and its hard to argue he isn't elite. What you miss is that hes let in 3 goals he shouldn't have because he didn't give himself a good chance to make the save. He didn't narrow the angle as he should, he didn't claim a cross like he should etc.
Will be interesting in the summer to see what happens with our goalkeeper situation.
Weak on the first one? He cut his angle and didn't even bother trying to save it because he had everything lined up and knew it was going wide
Good game against Betis, which some good saves and improved passing out the back. This game showed exactly why we are resigning De Gea.
This analysis sums it up perfectly, why we will not replace him with someone less good like Raya. Starts at 8:00 in.
This analysis sums it up perfectly, why we will not replace him with someone less good like Raya. Starts at 8:00 in.
Yeah, I thought he got the angles right for the first attack that went wide. Saying that, I think a good/great player scores (and again it wouldnt be down to DDG on that move, the midfield and defence (Maguire) did not cover themselves in glory for that).
I think his passing from the back especially first 15 or so minutes when they had the pressure on, wasnt good at all. He underhit a pass or played it out poorly. Those are the moments when youre under pressure that the distribution is really tested. It got better as the game went along but then again, he was under less pressure and Betis had eased off.
I thought his coming off the line to narrow angles was the more impressive part of his game.
According to this table we should go and buy Fabianski?
13 or 14 games isn’t a large enough sample to make a decision on. The below thread from Harrison is for the whole of last season. Despite having his best shot stopping season for a while, he was the least valuable of the big 6 keepers last season. Read the full Twitter thread for a breakdown of each keeper’s strengths and weaknesses and how they impacted their team. To be clear, I think he had a good game yesterday despite some slightly off distribution at times.
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