My view is that Lindegaard isn't a world class goalkeeper and hasn't shown many signs that he will ever be, whereas De Gea, despite also not being a world class goalkeeper, has demonstrated that he may well become so one day in the not so distant future.
David de Gea | 2011-14 Performances
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But you nevertheless think he shouldn't be playing?
Well it does.
RVP is one of the best strikers in the world at the moment (probably only Falcao and of course Messi are better at him right now), while Hernandez is a very good young player.
And you compared that, to Lindegaard and De Gea situation.
How do you argument that? How exactly is Lindegaard better at De Gea? He is 6 years older and has played in his life less professional matches than De Gea, doesn't have any trophy (comparing to De Gea), and had spent most of his career at tier 4 level of football. If your only argument is that SAF is picking him right now, may I remind you that SAF has preferred Carroll to Howard too. Despite his brilliance, SAF is not always right. I don't want to assume that I am saying that I know better than him, but De Gea is comfortably better than Lindegaard. He is infinitely better at shot stopping and ball kicking (when in both Lindegaard is average or below it). Lindegaard is better at dealing with crosse though, but is not that he is that good at it, in fact at best he is average at dealing with crosses.
Finally, rotation of keepers is a very bad thing. Find me a case when it has worked. It is something else playing a more experienced keeper while the new one is learning the aspect of the league (what AVB is doing) but consisting with rotation cannot be a good thing. There is a good reason why this doesn't happen in big clubs.
That's it?
Safer on crosses, for now perhaps. but as I said DDG is improving and when given a run in the side he has shown he is more than competent to take control of his area.
DDG has hardly made any mistakes since February this year and a few of Lindegaard's games he could've stood there and picked his nose the entire game as he had nothing to do. Saying Lindegaard makes less mistakes doesn't make him better. Plus, some goals DDG concedes are wrongly attributed to him as 'mistakes'.
I think DDG has put in a few MOM performances this season, saved us on a number of occasions.
Agreed. His mistakes are over-analysed but the good games where he makes an excellent save or looks confident are ignored too often.
In comparison to Lindegaard, I've a few times seen us concede with him in goal and thought De Gea would have done better; not necessarily mistakes from Lindegaard, we're talking about goals which 99% of goalkeepers in the game would have conceded, but goals nevertheless which David De Gea has the ability to deny. His reflexes are incredible, perhaps the best I've ever seen in any goalkeeper; he makes saves that no other keeper in the Premier League at least could get close to. His weakness is of course when the ball is crossed into his area, but imo he's shown improvement in that respect, and not only do I think it harsh that he's been dropped but I also view it as an error on SAF's part; when a player of such world class potential has been showing improvement in the one area in which he lacks particular prowess then I don't believe that dropping him is to the benefit of anyone. Let the improvements occur on the pitch I say.
I agree with Ferguson's rotation policy, it gives De Gea the experience he needs while doing the minimum of harm to our current campaign.
I've already explained why I think Lindegaard is better, he's a lot more steady. Granted De Gea will make some saves that Lindegaard couldn't make in his dreams, but he'll make mistakes that Lindegaard wouldn't make in his nightmares.
Van der Sar/Foster/Kuszczak in 2009-10.
Yup, that's it. He's made quite a few mistakes this season already, against Chelsea and Fulham for example, where he cost us goals, and also against Braga where he distributed the ball straight to an attacker. If you want to believe that there's something causing De Gea's concessions to be "wrongly attributed to him as 'mistakes'" then you're welcome to, I find that kind of talk absurd.
When?
I would say rotation is doing more harm than good. No other top side in the world rotates keepers and it cannot help the defenders not knowing who is going to be in goal on a consistent basis.
DDG has performed a lot better when he has been given a run in the side. When Lindegaard was injured at the back end of last season and DDG was #1 would you not say he performed very well and looked a confident GK?
It is when SAF tinkers that we are back to square one and DDG goes out thinking he has to prove himself again, that cannot be helpful.
IIRC, that stopped once VDS recovered from his injury he picked up in pre-season.
The Fulham 'mistake' involved the attacker barging into him. If that was Cech or Reina, the ref would've blown for a foul.
The Mata free-kick we have already disagreed with. As far as I'm concerned it was a terrific free-kick, out smarted the keeper and little he could've done about it. DDG thought like last season where he made the magnificent save, Mata outsmarted him.
I honestly cannot remember the Braga error but even if I give you that and the other 2 and I'll throw in the error he had at Newcastle (which he corrected by somehow clearing it off the line himself) that is 4 'mistakes'. That does not amount to "quite a few mistakes" in my book.
At the same time, he has made some fantastic saves this season to keep us in games and won us points (at Everton, Fulham, Chelsea, Stoke, Arsenal & Villa).
Overall, his impressive saves outweigh his mistakes and if we stop with the rotation bollocks his mistakes will be non-existent soon enough and he will only get better. I cannot say the same for Lindegaard, who is a steady alternative but not as impressive and he doesn't have the same potential.
I doubt it makes that much difference, we change defenders often anyway. No other top side rotates keepers because most of them have one who is a lot better than the second choice, we don't.
He performed better than he had been doing, sure, but he couldn't perform any worse. He wasn't amazing, far from it. Why is it unhelpful that De Gea has to prove himself?
Not really, the other goalkeepers were used in the cup competitions all the time. Besides, being injured should make it even more difficult than just being dropped.
Re: Fulham - It wouldn't have happened to Cech or Reina, Chelsea - you're right, he outsmarted him De Gea was trying to be too clever for his own good, that's a mistake in my book. 4 mistakes in 11 appearances (plus the one at Villa) is too many, even Barthez normally didn't make that many.
I agree that Lindegaard doesn't have the same potential, but that's about it. I'm not at all convinced that rotation is inherently harmful anyway - De Gea was undisputed in his first few months at the club and it culminated in a horror show at Blackburn. He only got back into the team in the League after Lindegaard's injury.
IIRC, the Blackburn 'horror show' was after there was more rotation & DDG was brought back into the side for that game. The mistake at Newcastle too was after rotation.
I find that it cannot help a GK who constantly has to go out there and think he has to prove himself makes it more difficult and leads to more mistakes. The Newcastle game, he was clearly trying too hard and coming for crosses he should not have been. Once he got a run in the side, we saw a more composed and confident keeper against Villa who took control of his area, this was after he played 5 PL games in a row.
Imo, when DDG has been allowed to play his natural game without worrying about trying to prove himself (ie. when there has been no rotation) he has played very well and there have not been many, if any, mistakes. Rotation is a contributory factor to his mistakes. Stop rotation, play DDG and the mistakes will disappear and he will get better.
True enough, it was after rotation, as was the mistake at Newcastle (although to be honest I can't even remember it). There's not necessarily a relationship between the two though - if not rotating him lead to him not making any mistakes then he would never have been dropped in the first place. You mention the game against Villa as an example of how not rotating helps him, but he wasn't amazing in that game, he conceded two goals, one of which was directly above his head - he was a bit more confident on crosses but if anything he seemed to over-commit a bit and got lucky.
So kie has named 4 mistakes, 2 of which are the Mata goal and the Wiemann goal in 11 games. Lindegaard made at least 4 mistakes against Reading on saturday. If anything it goes to show that one keeper deals with pressure appropriately and the other cracks under it.
Wrong.
Let me refresh your memory.
Van der Sar sustained a finger injury during the Audi Cup pre-season tournament, forcing him to miss the first 12 matches of Manchester United's 2009–10 season. On 17 October 2009, he returned to action in the first team, playing in United's 2–1 victory over Bolton Wanderers.[29] On 21 November 2009, Van der Sar would suffer injury again and be kept out of action for 12 games, with the combination of the Dutchman’s wife suffering a brain haemorrhage just before Christmas. On 16 January 2010, Van der Sar returned to action in a 3–0 win over Burnley.
That means that because of his injury and his wife problems he missed 24 matches. That season Foster played in 13 games, while Kuszczak played in 14. In total they played 27 games, which means that when VDS was available both of them combined played in 3 games. Do you still continue saying that it was a rotation?
I maintain that there was little continuity and we coped perfectly fine.
It was an injury, and that happen. It is like saying we rotated Vidic with Evans last season.
And no, actually we didn't coped perfectly fine. Both of keepers, especially Foster made some mistakes that season which VDS most likely wouldn't make.
Kie says there's no difference between being dropped due to being injured and dropped as De Gea has been. This is obviously horseshit through as I don't see how the former is supposed to knock your confidence and belief in your own abilities as would certainly the latter.
What is the reasoning behind De Gea being dropped? He's a potentially world class goalkeeper – already world class in regards to shot stopping reflexes – who has been steadily improving upon his one weak area. What message does it give out to drop him for Lindegaard now?
I think that in fact that is only an excuse, most likely he only looked at stats and posted that without looking why VDS was 'rotated' in the first place.
I can't believe that anyone would seriously think that VDS was rotated.
Foster and Kuszczak played at their normal level when they came in, being rotated didn't really effect them, and it certainly didn't effect VDS.
I'd say it'd be worse for a goalkeeper's performances to face physical injury or trauma from your wife having a brain haemoragghe than a knock to your confidence from another goalkeeper getting a few games. There's also the potential impact of complacency if De Gea knows he can make as many mistakes as he likes and he won't get dropped, not to mention the impact on Lindegaard's confidence in that situation.
It sends the message that he's not better than Lindegaard yet and that he needs to stop making mistakes.
He was rotated for a lot of cup games.
I'd say it'd be worse for a goalkeeper's performances to face physical injury or trauma from your wife having a brain haemoragghe than a knock to your confidence from another goalkeeper getting a few games. There's also the potential impact of complacency if De Gea knows he can make as many mistakes as he likes and he won't get dropped, not to mention the impact on Lindegaard's confidence in that situation.
It sends the message that he's not better than Lindegaard yet and that he needs to stop making mistakes.
He was rotated for a lot of cup games.
Are you doing this deliberately, knowing that your wrong? Do you understand that in 2009-2010 season VDS didn't play in only 3 games when he was available? 3 games.
I'm not wrong, it was normal for him to be rotated out for Cup games, in that year we only had one FA Cup game and he missed it and he missed the Carling Cup Final. Admittedly he played against City in the Carling, but it's pretty clear he was rotated out to give other goalkeepers games. The same thing happened the season before with other 'keepers being given games in the cups, most notably the Carling Cup Final and the FA Cup Semi against Everton.
It certainly effected Foster; he's excelled at clubs when he's been made their no.1 and given every game, but being an occasional goalkeeper at United didn't suit him one bit. It didn't effect VDS because he was never dropped.
Are you dense?
That's just standard practice FFS, no comparison to the current situation whatsoever. Is Robin Van Persie supposedly part of a rotational forward line on the basis that he wasn't picked to play the dead rubber against Galatasaray?
We're talking about being dropped, not being given a rest for a fecking Carling Cup game against Accrington Stanley.
DdG would have been absolutely crucified by the media for letting in those goals that Lindegard did. Especially the one where he just stood there and let the ball go about a meter to his left without doing anything but stumbling backward.
While I wouldn't have dreamed up a rotation policy for the two keepers myself, I can see the loft of it in this particular situation.
Let's not look for any pretext to flog Fergie. The man knows what he's doing, even if he makes the oddball mistake here and there.
Let's not look for any pretext to flog Fergie. The man knows what he's doing, even if he makes the oddball mistake here and there.
DdG would have been absolutely crucified by the media for letting in those goals that Lindegard did. Especially the one where he just stood there and let the ball go about a meter to his left without doing anything but stumbling backward.
After Lindegaard had two shots just strike him in the arm (luckily cleared) there's was no mentioned by the commentators which bemused me as I thought the same as you
In what way was the Vidic OG attributable to De Gea? De Gea was blocked out by the Fulham player - which left Vidic totally unchallenged to clear the ball. Vidic missed the header and deflected the ball in with his heel. The mistake was clearly Vidic's not De Gea's. In a perfect world De Gea might have stayed on his line and save Vidic's deflection but that would have been a mistake - his going for the cross took the Fulham player off Vidic and should have made his job easy. De Gea can hardly be blamed for not foreseeing that Vidic would miss an easy header.
And the look on DDG's face was priceless. (See gif)
How the hell can this be considered a mistake? DDG line of site was completely blocked by a sea of defenders and the ball was struck with such ferocity. Do people just jump onto DDG for every goal he concedes? Hart, Mannone, and Reina probably are a lot worse this season and yet not much negative publicity.
This discussion is getting out of hand. Fergie needs to play DDG for the sake of Redcafe
I just hope all this rotation doesn't a) come at the cost of his development as a keeper, because he's destined to be top class, and b) doesn't make De Gea's head turn to pastures new.
He wouldn't be wrong to feel hard done by so far in his career. Hopefully Fergie knows him and his mindset well and has seen things that suggest he'll shake off a bit of rotation.
He wouldn't be wrong to feel hard done by so far in his career. Hopefully Fergie knows him and his mindset well and has seen things that suggest he'll shake off a bit of rotation.
After the Reading game I expect to see De Gea get a good run in the side.
TBF - Chris Waddle pretty much said that Lindegaard was gash and not up to United standard. He criticised him when he was rooted to the spot and the ball hit his hand, he said that he has no command of his area (he should have given Evans a call for a simple catch in the run of play that led to the corner for the third goal) and he said that he doesn't push the play up quick enough.
Apparently not in the club calendar, like Rafael and Nani. Mass exodus from OT it seems. 
Some people do yes, and It's not even just about having motm performances, De Gea has shown to make very important vital saves in games late on. Mata last season, Johnson against Liverpool, Villa this season, Braga, Cluj, Fulham he made some good saves late on. These things should be taken into account, he could have nothing to do for the majority of the game and pull off a top save when he needs to. This is something I just dont see in Lindegaard, who to be fair hasn't really done too much wrong in most of the games he has played, but is that enough? The 3 games he's played where we actually came under immense pressure he has struggled badly, really badly. Newcastle last season, City in the cup last season and Reading on saturday. He looked shakier than De Gea has looked in his whole time here, and maybe that's because he isn't used to playing at a level as high as this?
I dont get why some of our supporters dont see what Fergie is doing. De Gea was given a shot at the start of the season when Lindegaard was injured, didnt do anything to play himself out of the team but lost his spot when he had to miss a few matches due to his teeth.
Now Anders has been given a shot, and it's up to him to play himself out of the team. I dont think it's a rotation-policy from Fergie, but rather to give them that incentive of "play to your best and stay in the team". Granted that they need a few games to get themself in some sort of form, but I seem to recall both keepers playing a few consecutive matches whenever they've gotten their shot, so it's not like we keep changing keepers every other game.
Anders has gotten his chance now, if he plays against Cluj / City this weekened it will be because Fergie dont think he played that bad against West Ham. If De Gea is given a shot this week, I'm certain that he'll keep his spot until he deserves to lose it.
Now Anders has been given a shot, and it's up to him to play himself out of the team. I dont think it's a rotation-policy from Fergie, but rather to give them that incentive of "play to your best and stay in the team". Granted that they need a few games to get themself in some sort of form, but I seem to recall both keepers playing a few consecutive matches whenever they've gotten their shot, so it's not like we keep changing keepers every other game.
Anders has gotten his chance now, if he plays against Cluj / City this weekened it will be because Fergie dont think he played that bad against West Ham. If De Gea is given a shot this week, I'm certain that he'll keep his spot until he deserves to lose it.
I dont agree with the policy of rotating goalkeepers. De Gea seemed to be first choice and now seems to be 2nd choice. Both keepers have made mistakes, i would argue that De Gea just looks more confident overall, i dont buy the story that he can't handle the high ball coming into the box. He wouldnt need to if our defenders were doing there job which they get paid handsomely for.
That's what Fergie does, yes. But I think it would be more beneficial to just stick with De Gea as number one whenever he's fit apart from the odd game to keep Anders warm.
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