Darren Fletcher - Technical Director

Herman Toothrot said:
I hate posters banging on out about the individual talents of people they don't even know and passing judgement without any possible qualification.

You were probably one of those idiots who thought the club hired Tom Keane because his brother was in our youth team, or that we'd be better off without talented coaches like Carrick and Mckenna.

You've absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe you're right and maybe people like Mitten, who speak highly about Fletcher, are wrong. But his opinion is qualified, yours is parroting baseless nonsense you'd read on Twitter.
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I am only saying that Maldini's experience can't be compared with that of Fletcher (or anyone really). I also explained why. The only two things Fletcher has on Maldini is his ability to get a job and two promotions in less then a year + the fact that we had a manager at United who didn't know what the feck Fletcher did at United. I doubt Maldini had ever had that with Milan.

And yes we're actually better off without Mckenna and Carrick. We finally won a trophy something that went missing when the boys were at the job. How many trophies had United won with a former player as manager?
 
golden_blunder said:
So what you’re saying is that Maldini got one of the ‘jobs for the boys’ that you hate so much because his dad worked there
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Nailed it. All top players and captains become good/great coaches, directors and managers. It is known. Particularly if their dad was also a great player and captain. Kasper Schmeichel is nailed on to be the GDoFOAT.
 
devilish said:
True. But the experience he got with AC Milan was nowhere near to what he got elsewhere.
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We produced Sit Matt and Sir Alex. Sure SAF managed three clubs before us but the experience he got with United was nowhere near to what he got elsewhere.
 
devilish said:
True. But the experience he got with AC Milan was nowhere near to what he got elsewhere.
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Has he mentioned his time at Milan as more exceptional than compared to other clubs ? I’m sure it was great learning experience but personally I wouldn’t class him as a managerial product of Milan(At least not in the same way as Capello, who started as a youth coach)
 
top1whoisman said:
We produced Sit Matt and Sir Alex. Sure SAF managed three clubs before us but the experience he got with United was nowhere near to what he got elsewhere.
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Ancelotti was both an AC Milan former player and AC Milan manager. Prior to AC Milan he won just 1 Serie A title with Roma as player and 1 Intertoto cup with Juventus. The latter hated him as a manager from day 1 and celebrated when he left.

Comeon how many ex players had actually done well managing United? How many ex players had won an EPL title as managers?
 
Sweet Square said:
Has he mentioned his time at Milan as more exceptional than compared to other clubs ? I’m sure it was great learning experience but personally I wouldn’t class him as a managerial product of Milan(At least not in the same way as Capello, who started as a youth coach)
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I'll have to check that. All I know is that his experience with Juve was horrible. They literally hated him there for his links with Milan and they wanted him out from day 1. At Parma he did the idiocy of selling Zola whom he admit to be one of his worst mistakes ever. He also stopped the signing of a certain Roberto Baggio as well. The guy was promising but raw when he moved with Milan.
 
devilish said:
I'll have to check that. All I know is that his experience with Juve was horrible. They literally hated him there for his links with Milan and they wanted him out from day 1. At Parma he did the idiocy of selling Zola whom he admit to be one of his worst mistakes ever. The guy was incredibly raw when he moved with Milan.
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Ah cheers, I didn’t know the details of his other jobs. I was surprised that it took him 3 years to win the first league title(Although won the CL in his second season).

Seemed a big risk for Milan to take him but clearly more than paid off for them.
 
devilish said:
I am only saying that Maldini's experience can't be compared with that of Fletcher (or anyone really). I also explained why. The only two things Fletcher has on Maldini is his ability to get a job and two promotions in less then a year + the fact that we had a manager at United who didn't know what the feck Fletcher did at United. I doubt Maldini had ever had that with Milan.

And yes we're actually better off without Mckenna and Carrick. We finally won a trophy something that went missing when the boys were at the job. How many trophies had United won with a former player as manager?
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It's difficult to reason with this kind of nonsense, isn't it?

Okay, let's play 'being a person who makes talking on the Internet a misery'. Well, we won all our games with Carrick as caretaker, so he's probably the best Manchester United manager of all time.

I'm done with this shite.
 
Sweet Square said:
Ah cheers, didn’t know the details of his other jobs. I was surprised that it took him 3 years to win the first league title(Although won the CL in his second season).

Big risk for Milan to take him but more than paid off.
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Look we're not talking about a Gary Neville here. I mean prior to joining AC Milan, Ancelotti came second place twice in the Serie A which is not that amazing considering that both Parma and Juve had amazing squads. But it was at AC Milan were Ancelotti really took off.

There are clubs who produce people capable of becoming great managers etc (ex Milan, Juve) and those who don't. We're among the latter unfortunately. I have my theories about why but I had already said too much.
 
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Herman Toothrot said:
It's difficult to reason with this kind of nonsense, isn't it?

Okay, let's play 'being a person who makes talking on the Internet a misery'. Well, we won all our games with Carrick as caretaker, so he's probably the best Manchester United manager of all time.

I'm done with this shite.
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What nonsense? Isn't that the truth? Do you want to revert back to the time when we had Ole, Mckenna and Carricky?
 
devilish said:
What nonsense? Isn't that the truth? Do you want to revert back to the time when we had Ole, Mckenna and Carricky?
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Are we just going to ignore that those have proven to be astute managers/coaches in their respective clubs?
 
UnitedSofa said:
Are we just going to ignore that those have proven to be astute managers/coaches in their respective clubs?
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You mean the championship and league 1? I think they fount their level there. Hopefully they'll grow and improve unlike Ole who seem to be stuck at Norwegian league level
 
Why is it that successes in management like Ancelotti and Capello count as being produced by Milan but not failures like Seedorf and Inzaghi and Leonardo and Gattuso and Nesta and Costacurta and Pirlo and
 
What has Maldini's family tree got to do with his ability to fill a staff role?

These jobs come down to technical and personal qualities. We know feck all unless we're in the building or we conduct the interview process. Even then we wouldn't exactly be the best people to judge but it would at least be substantiated.

Let's be honest, all people do on here is make inferences based on the results of the first team squad. If the squad do well all the staff are excellent and if they play poorly, then all the staff did poorly. There is no nuance around it at all. The dinner ladies must be making fantastic carbonara now we have a trophy. Much better than last year.
 
devilish said:
What I am saying is that Paolo Maldini's experience is incomparable to anyone. His father was a former Milan player (and quite WC at that) who then covered multiple jobs at Milan including that of manager. That meant that his boy was born at AC Milan. Then Paolo turned out to be a child prodigy. He made his debut at age 16 only to end up playing in the finest defence the world had ever seen. Now he's got a son whose playing for AC Milan as well. If you want to do an equivalent to that would be if Charlton was a decent manager at United and beyond. He would then have a son who was an even better player then him, he would spend decades at United where he won nearly double the CLs this club had ever won (ie 5) and he would retire only to return and lead AC Milan to a very unlikely success. Finally his grandson would end up a Manchester United player as well. I think we can all agree that Darren is nowhere near to that.

I hate the jobs for the boys because we don't produce bright people who actually understand football beyond that of nodding at the manager. While Milan produce the likes of Ancelotti and Capello we produce, erm the Nevilles and Ole
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So less job for the boys but more nepotism?
 
Obviously works closely with Ten Hag, the man he helped bring to the club if stories are to be believed. Wonder what the manager thinks of him?
 
micmac said:
So less job for the boys but more nepotism?
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What nepotism exactly? Paolo was a child prodigy who turned out to become among the best defender in the world with more then twice the CL honours as player them SAF won in his entire managerial career. He retired from Milan on very bad terms (he got booed in his last game),he was exiled by the administration of the time only to return at the request of Elliott group of all people. He then played an instrumental role which lead to milan winning the league title in nearly 20 years despite relying on a shoe string budget.
 
devilish said:
The trouble is that we don't really have a history of having or developing people who understand football. All of SAF's players have been very average managers at best (and I am being ultra political correct here) and you only have to listen their punditry to understand that they aren't very bright. To compare United with let's say Milan is quite ridiculous. We're talking about a club who has a long history of producing the likes of Ancelotti and Capello all of whom had probably won far more as managers then all our former players did as managers since the club's very inception. It also doesn't help that Darren Fletcher got a job and 2 promotions in the space of 8 months and with Rangnick asking WTF Fletcher does at the club. That doesn't help dispelling the rumours about him being SAF's favourite pet.

I also lost hope in trying to stop people comparing Fletcher with Maldini. Fletcher doesn't share the experience Maldini has. The guy was literally raised at Milan as his father was a former AC Milan player, their technical director, assistant manager and manager. Paolo was a fantastic player and he now has a son whose playing for Milan. That's 3 generations of Maldinis there, 2 of whom were world class. The only time Fletcher was near to world class was when he sat alongside the likes of Scholes and Giggs.. Finally no one got as much scrutiny by the fans as Maldini did. We're talking about a guy who after winning everything with Milan was booed during his last game and reminded that he is not Baresi. Fletcher on the other hand is praised OTT for the CL final he lost with people actually thinking that he would somehow annihilated Pep's Barca on his own. So yes, you can say that Maldini is the anti Fletcher.
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So are convoluting 2 things here, no one ever compared Maldini the player to Fletcher the player, I dont even know why you are brining that up because that was not the topic and I did not mention that.

Right, so Fergie's ex players went into management and were bad = every player that played under Fergie is a bad manager?

The hypocrisy is mad because, I seen people call for VDS as CEO / director and he played under Fergie...

Oh wow Rangnick said he doesn't know what he does, its because Rangnick didn't know what he was doing in the first place, he said United are 6 years behind City and Pool too, do you think that because Rangnick said something its true?

So what if he got promoted twice? Can you explain why you think Fletcher is bad because he interviewed ETH and with Murtough thought he is the right man for the job, after interviewing Poch as well.

IF you call Fletcher Fergie's pet, there were loads of reports saying Fergie favours Poch, all ex players favoured Poch, yet Fletcher and Murtough decided no its Ten Hag.
 
Abraxas said:
What has Maldini's family tree got to do with his ability to fill a staff role?

These jobs come down to technical and personal qualities. We know feck all unless we're in the building or we conduct the interview process. Even then we wouldn't exactly be the best people to judge but it would at least be substantiated.

Let's be honest, all people do on here is make inferences based on the results of the first team squad. If the squad do well all the staff are excellent and if they play poorly, then all the staff did poorly. There is no nuance around it at all. The dinner ladies must be making fantastic carbonara now we have a trophy. Much better than last year.
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Spot on
 
If you remove the posts where devilish is talking about nepotism on this forum he’s left with 11 posts.
 
I particularly like how Juventus are named as one of the clubs who produce good managers and directors and yet the first name that sprung to mind was Pavel Nedved...who is banned for life now isn't he for corruption? Sure you've got Conte who is a genuine top manager but he's hardly an all time great. Who are the others that have come through in say the last 20 years?

By the way, I do think there clearly used to be an element of Italian tactical teachings being vastly superior to British clubs, so it wouldn't exactly shock me if that led to better coaches being produced as well. On the other hand, the Prem has really changed over the last 20 years and so I think you're going to see more and more good British coaches at whatever the cutting edge is, because of the experience brought in from abroad that they can learn from and innovation due to the standard of competition.
 
romufc said:
So are convoluting 2 things here, no one ever compared Maldini the player to Fletcher the player, I dont even know why you are brining that up because that was not the topic and I did not mention that.

Right, so Fergie's ex players went into management and were bad = every player that played under Fergie is a bad manager?

The hypocrisy is mad because, I seen people call for VDS as CEO / director and he played under Fergie...

Oh wow Rangnick said he doesn't know what he does, its because Rangnick didn't know what he was doing in the first place, he said United are 6 years behind City and Pool too, do you think that because Rangnick said something its true?

So what if he got promoted twice? Can you explain why you think Fletcher is bad because he interviewed ETH and with Murtough thought he is the right man for the job, after interviewing Poch as well.

IF you call Fletcher Fergie's pet, there were loads of reports saying Fergie favours Poch, all ex players favoured Poch, yet Fletcher and Murtough decided no its Ten Hag.
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I wanted to dispel the idea of Fletcher = Maldini which is far from the truth. Maldini's career is unique. He was literally born at AC Milan since his father (who was WC btw but nowhere near to Paolo), then an assistant manager and then a manager there. Fletcher on the other hand had a more conventional career. He came at age 15 at the club with no official links prior to him coming. Maldini was a child prodigy and a world class player who would essentially stay (and win) loads of trophies for decades. Fletcher was basically the precursor of McT. Maldini's career was constantly scrutinised which in turn lead to him leaving San Siro booed by his own fans. Fletcher on the other hand was so ridiculously overrated by the fans that his best career moment was the CL final he actually missed (which supposedly would have made us win the CL against prime Pep's Barca on his own). Maldini lived in exile from Milan for a long time up until Elliott group brought him back. Fletcher got 3 jobs in less then a year which left Rangnick puzzled about what he does exactly at United. The closest I can think of Maldini is Jordi Cruyff at Barca. There again, Jordi was not a WC player, he didn't spent most of his career at Barca and he doesn't have a son playing with Barca either.

Secondly United had never produced 1 person from the inside capable of win any significant trophies as manager which is in contrast with Milan whose got a history of doing just that. I believe that the reason for that is complex to answer

a- Italy has one of the finest coaching courses in the world and is far better then the one offered in England. Which explains why the Italians produce the likes of Ancelotti and Conte while the English hasn't produced a half decent manager for decades.

b- United's club's structure and mentality. United relies solely on the manager. In fact 99% of all our league titles came under 2 managers. That means that the only way Manchester United seem to thrive is to have an absolute visionary at the helm who basically dictate everything. Once that person retires then we're in shit. The situation is pretty much the same as we speak. Last summer we essentially pursued the players ETH wanted, no questions asked. These geniuses couldn't even get him his first team choice either (De Jong, Timber etc) and messed up big time by paying silly money for Anthony. On the other hand responsibilities at clubs like AC Milan and Juve are more evenly distributed That has 3 advantages. First of all they don't rely on a genius as manager to succeed, Secondly if the manager leaves then the whole structure won't collapse. Finally players are brought up believing that football is more then just nodding and clapping at Sir no questions asked. There are many moving parts that are in motion to make a club successful and if they are willing to learn then they could be part of that structure. Finally what United miss is big time is that element of ruthlessness to make the whole thing work. For example Seedorf (who is a legend at Milan) got sacked after just 4 months. We on the other hand kept Phil Jones for 13 years and Ole was able to hold to his job for 4 years despite spending shitloads of money only to win nothing. The disadvantage of the Milan/Juve model is that once there's a football shift its very difficult to bring new ideas in as everyone is tied to that same old mentality.

Regarding Rangnick, he was brought in out of semi retirement mid way during the season when morale was at the pits. He wasn't allowed to bring in most of the people he wanted and wasn't given any money to spent. Finally his tactics were polar opposite to the one this team was built upon which meant that its style played exactly against our weakness. Don't take me wrong I wanted the guy and I still think that he would be a superb DOF for us (which is his role btw). However even then I knew that we were heading through a very tough ride and that the guy would only be beneficial to us if he's allowed to do what he does best (ie DOF) and is given the resources and the time he needed.

Finally needless to say but the same people who brought ETH also brought Rangnick and kept Ole way past his expiry date
 
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TwoSheds said:
I particularly like how Juventus are named as one of the clubs who produce good managers and directors and yet the first name that sprung to mind was Pavel Nedved...who is banned for life now isn't he for corruption? Sure you've got Conte who is a genuine top manager but he's hardly an all time great. Who are the others that have come through in say the last 20 years?

By the way, I do think there clearly used to be an element of Italian tactical teachings being vastly superior to British clubs, so it wouldn't exactly shock me if that led to better coaches being produced as well. On the other hand, the Prem has really changed over the last 20 years and so I think you're going to see more and more good British coaches at whatever the cutting edge is, because of the experience brought in from abroad that they can learn from and innovation due to the standard of competition.
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Didier Deschamps and, Zinedine Zidane were all Juventus former players
 
devilish said:
I wanted to dispel the idea of Fletcher = Maldini which is far from the truth. Maldini's career is unique. He was literally born at AC Milan since his father (who was WC btw but nowhere near to Paolo), then an assistant manager and then a manager there. Fletcher on the other hand had a more conventional career. He came at age 15 at the club with no official links prior to him coming. Maldini was a child prodigy and a world class player who would essentially stay (and win) loads of trophies for decades. Fletcher was basically the precursor of McT. Maldini's career was constantly scrutinised which in turn lead to him leaving San Siro booed by his own fans. Fletcher on the other hand was so ridiculously overrated by the fans that his best career moment was the CL final he actually missed (which supposedly would have made us win the CL against prime Pep's Barca on his own). Maldini lived in exile from Milan for a long time up until Elliott group brought him back. Fletcher got 3 jobs in less then a year which left Rangnick puzzled about what he does exactly at United. The closest I can think of Maldini is Jordi Cruyff at Barca. There again, Jordi was not a WC player, he didn't spent most of his career at Barca and he doesn't have a son playing with Barca either.

Secondly United had never produced 1 person from the inside capable of win any significant trophies as manager which is in contrast with Milan whose got a history of doing just that. I believe that the reason for that is complex to answer

a- Italy has one of the finest coaching courses in the world and is far better then the one offered in England. Which explains why the Italians produce the likes of Ancelotti and Conte while the English hasn't produced a half decent manager for decades.

b- United's club's structure and mentality. United relies solely on the manager. In fact 99% of all our league titles came under 2 managers. That means that the only way Manchester United seem to thrive is to have an absolute visionary at the helm who basically dictate everything. Once that person retires then we're in shit. The situation is pretty much the same as we speak. Last summer we essentially pursued the players ETH wanted, no questions asked. These geniuses couldn't even get him his first team choice either (De Jong, Timber etc) and messed up big time by paying silly money for Anthony. On the other hand responsibilities at clubs like AC Milan and Juve are more evenly distributed That has 3 advantages. First of all they don't rely on a genius as manager to succeed, Secondly if the manager leaves then the whole structure won't collapse. Finally players are brought up believing that football is more then just nodding and clapping at Sir no questions asked. There are many moving parts that are in motion to make a club successful and if they are willing to learn then they could be part of that structure. Finally what United miss is big time is that element of ruthlessness to make the whole thing work. For example Seedorf (who is a legend at Milan) got sacked after just 4 months. We on the other hand kept Phil Jones for 13 years and Ole was able to hold to his job for 4 years despite spending shitloads of money only to win nothing. The disadvantage of the Milan/Juve model is that once there's a football shift its very difficult to bring new ideas in as everyone is tied to that same old mentality.

Regarding Rangnick, he was brought in out of semi retirement mid way during the season when morale was at the pits. He wasn't allowed to bring in most of the people he wanted and wasn't given any money to spent. Finally his tactics were polar opposite to the one this team was built upon which meant that its style played exactly against our weakness. Don't take me wrong I wanted the guy and I still think that he would be a superb DOF for us (which is his role btw). However even then I knew that we were heading through a very tough ride and that the guy would only be beneficial to us if he's allowed to do what he does best (ie DOF) and is given the resources and the time he needed.

Finally needless to say but the same people who brought ETH also brought Rangnick and kept Ole way past his expiry date
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@devilish you don’t half talk some nonsense
 
Sweet Square said:
They also both played for Bordeaux. Your just picking great managers and then saying(without any evidence)that it’s due to their years at Italian clubs.
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well Zidane had stated that Lippi was the most important manager he had ever had.
 
golden_blunder said:
So what you’re saying is that Maldini got one of the ‘jobs for the boys’ that you hate so much because his dad worked there
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:lol:

Fantastic. Only difference is Fletcher wasnt world class so cause of that he didnt have the experience Maldini had..
Never seen an United fan who belittles all the ex and current United players and even the whole club. Imagine comparing United to the mighty Milan. The cheek!
They've been producing football men with experience unlike United whose ex players are a bit daft and cant have a job at United.

devilish said:
It also doesn't help that Darren Fletcher got a job and 2 promotions in the space of 8 months minded that he is not Baresi.
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:lol:

This should be your tagline.
 
devilish said:
What I am saying is that Paolo Maldini's experience is incomparable to anyone. His father was a former Milan player (and quite WC at that) who then covered multiple jobs at Milan including that of manager. That meant that his boy was born at AC Milan. Then Paolo turned out to be a child prodigy. He made his debut at age 16 only to end up playing in the finest defence the world had ever seen. Now he's got a son whose playing for AC Milan as well. If you want to do an equivalent to that would be if Charlton was a decent manager at United and beyond. He would then have a son who was an even better player then him, he would spend decades at United where he won nearly double the CLs this club had ever won (ie 5) and he would retire only to return and lead AC Milan to a very unlikely success. Finally his grandson would end up a Manchester United player as well. I think we can all agree that Darren is nowhere near to that.

I hate the jobs for the boys because we don't produce bright people who actually understand football beyond that of nodding at the manager. While Milan produce the likes of Ancelotti and Capello we produce, erm the Nevilles and Ole
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Right so he's unsuited to be our technical director because his Dad didn't play for United and he wasn't as good as you wanted him to be at football.
 
Juventus is involved in yet another financial scandal.
Milan was in the gutter up until last year.

But those are clubs United should look up to.

Sounds legit.
 
Solius said:
Right so he's unsuited to be our technical director because his Dad didn't play for United and he wasn't as good as you wanted him to be at football.
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Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
 
devilish said:
I am only saying that Maldini's experience can't be compared with that of Fletcher (or anyone really).
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Agreed, Maldini only ever experienced one environment whereas Fletcher has experienced many different ones that only have a relevance to the country that Manchester United are competing in. Astute point to make.

To address your point above, you aren't interested in having a good faith debate about this, your position on United and its former players has been made very clear over the years.
 
devilish said:
Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
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So Maldini was a class player with huge experience and ton of trophies and his dad was at the club which all makes him better at being a staff member compared to SAF's pet Fletcher?
Fletcher didnt have a dad at United so he shouldnt have got a job.

And a promotion. 2 times in 8 months.

I'm amazed you didnt come up with a nickname for Fletcher too.

There is space for a debate but its hard to debate when you write nonsense.
 
devilish said:
well Zidane had stated that Lippi was the most important manager he had ever had.
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Did Zidane say this in regards to have he now manages ? I could be wrong and his time at Juventus changed how he saw the game and impacted him as a manger but we need more information to make that judged.

Also oddly enough Lippi didn’t think Zidane would turn out to be a good manager

"I never thought that Zidane would become a coach," Lippi said in an interview with L'Equipe. "I have coached players like [Didier] Deschamps who I knew would do well on the bench, but Zidane was certainly not one of them.

"That being said, I believe Zidane can do well at a big club like Real Madrid. Zidane is intimately familiar with the psychology of top players, in both defeat and victory."

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/uef...ppi-never-thought-zidane-would-become-a-coach
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devilish said:
Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
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You explained why you think Maldini worked and your reasons were because he was a world class player and his Dad player for Milan. Also the three generations things. It implies that's what Fletcher lacks compared to him.

Also on the second bolded bit, it's clearly not that simple is it? The staff/club are a sum of their parts and the right combination is needed. We weren't poor solely because of Fletcher or any one person. Look at how maligned McKenna and Carrick were as coaches at times and now they're doing superb jobs at Ipswich and Middlesbrough respectively. Even Eric Ramsay is getting some plaudits this season and being headhunted. Hell even Steve Round & Albert Stuivenberg who looked clueless during their time at Utd are now coaches at the team top of the league.

The actual answer is nobody truly knows the impact someone like that actually has at a club from the outside, and their environment can help or hinder it.
 
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