Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player

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finneh said:
My point is only that we do not have a model that says "top 4", as this is relatively irrelevant to us (maybe CL revenue of £30m a year? Less than 7% of our turnover). Our model is to get ourselves back to the top. Selling Welbeck to Arsenal does absolutely nothing to prejudice that goal.

Could it mean that for a single season we finish 5th instead of 4th? So unlikely that it shouldn't be factored into any commercial decision (I'd say Sanchez up top with Ox/Walcott to provide width is arguably better than Welbeck anyway).
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You do understand that we sold Welbeck and replaced him with Falcao, that is an upgrade, that is something that improves our chances for top 4, not lowers them. You can ofcourse talk about how we strenghtend Arsenal by letting them have Welbeck and brought increased competition on ourselves, but you also have to realise that Arsenal could have brought in another striker (they were also in for Remy and Huntelaar and Zigic) if we had said no to a Welbeck transfer, so in the end that argument might not be as clear cut as many people think it is. It is not like Welbeck was their only option.

In the end I also think a club like United needs to believe in its own strenghts and qualities, what kind of weak excuse for a club would we be if we'd be trying to increase our chances on top 4 by weaking Arsenal. We are Manchester United, we are not supposed to be afraid of a little competition and we belive in our qualities and strenght to get the job done. If we get top 4 it should be because we are good enough to be in there and not because Arsenal aren't good enough to be in there. Also it is Welbeck we are talking about, player that was 3th or 4th choice for us, 26 goals in 4 years, it is not like we sold them the best striker in the league or something like that. If Welbeck to Arsenal would make us wet our undies in terms of improved competition than there would be something seriously wrong with us.

The only fair point is that we lost out an academy player that had alot of potential and mileage left in him and that in the long term we will miss out on the opportunity of having him lead our line if he'd develop into a good striker. Which is something that might result into us having to purchase a new striker within 2 years time when RVP hits 33 and will need replacing. But so what we have an exciting prospect in Wilson who strikes me as a more naturaly gifted striker than Welbeck and we also have Powell who might trun out to be a striker and Will Keane, and we have a shitload of money so if we do need to buy a new player in 2 years time than so what, it is not like we can't afford it.
 
NoArroJusBeta said:
You do understand that we sold Welbeck and replaced him with Falcao, that is an upgrade, that is something that improves our chances for top 4, not lowers them. You can ofcourse talk about how we strenghtend Arsenal by letting them have Welbeck and brought increased competition on ourselves, but you also have to realise that Arsenal could have brought in another striker (they were also in for Remy and Huntelaar and Zigic) if we had said no to a Welbeck transfer, so in the end that argument might not be as clear cut as many people think it is. It is not like Welbeck was their only option.

In the end I also think a club like United needs to believe in its own strenghts and qualities, what kind of weak excuse for a club would we be if we'd be trying to increase our chances on top 4 by weaking Arsenal. We are Manchester United, we are not supposed to be afraid of a little competition and we belive in our qualities and strenght to get the job done. If we get top 4 it should be because we are good enough to be in there and not because Arsenal aren't good enough to be in there. Also it is Welbeck we are talking about, player that was 3th or 4th choice for us, 26 goals in 4 years, it is not like we sold them the best striker in the league or something like that. If Welbeck to Arsenal would make us wet our undies in terms of improved competition than there would be something seriously wrong with us.

The only fair point is that we lost out an academy player that had alot of potential and mileage left in him and that in the long term we will miss out on the opportunity of having him lead our line if he'd develop into a good striker. Which is something that might result into us having to purchase a new striker within 2 years time when RVP hits 33 and will need replacing. But so what we have an exciting prospect in Wilson who strikes me as a more naturaly gifted striker than Welbeck and we also have Powell who might trun out to be a striker and Will Keane, and we have a shitload of money so if we do need to buy a new player in 2 years time than so what, it is not like we can't afford it.
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Remy went to Chelsea, and don't make me laugh with Zigic :lol:

We fecked up selling them exactly what they needed, doesn't matter if we replaced him with Falcao. We aren't the same club that used to get 1st/2nd no matter what happened in the league: we have been fecked ever since SAF left and it will be a battle to get into the top 4 , one that won't be made any easier by a stronger Arsenal
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The only thing that bothers me about this transfer, is not that he has gone, but the fee involved. We should have got a lot more money than £16m. There again, if he had gone for a lot more people would be saying, if he is worth that much, why are we selling him?
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You can't hope for much more than that from a striker with 26 goals in 4 years...

United fans may think he is one of the biggest british talents and that he is very close to becoming an allround super striker but honestly nobody else thinks that. Welbeck isn't hot anymore, he ain't new, there is no hype around him, he has failed to establish himself as a player here at United. People seem to think we should have sold him for a fee of £30m or something. It is not because we went crazy in the market overpaying for certain players that other teams will follow that lead. He is also no Sturridge yet, maybay in retrospect Chelsea did a bad deal with letting him go to Liverpool, but at that time the fee involved for Sturridge was fair. Just like how the fee for Welbeck is fair, we'll just have to see and wait if Arsenal can turn him around like Liverpool turned Sturridge around. What I'am trying to say is you can't expect Arsenal to pay as much for Welbeck as what somebody like Sturddige is worth now. He went for more as Balotelli, given the stats of Welbeck and Balotelli I think the fee we received certainly ain't bad.
 
saw this on Spurs forum
1) So a week before transfer deadline Welbeck was ours. So much so that Welbeck himself was telling people that he's joining us (On loan i'll add).

2) Gooner scum made contact the day before deadline and offered a cash deal.

3) Welbeck was told by Sir Alex that he'll be playing on the left (and other random positions) for two years and then will be moved to the centre.

4) Welbeck asked to leave United...Van gaal and especially Giggs tried everything in their power to keep him.
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United22 said:
Remy went to Chelsea, and don't make me laugh with Zigic :lol:

We fecked up selling them exactly what they needed, doesn't matter if we replaced him with Falcao. We aren't the same club that used to get 1st/2nd no matter what happened in the league: we have been fecked ever since SAF left and it will be a battle to get into the top 4 , one that won't be made any easier by a stronger Arsenal
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Well Arsenal wanted Zigic, ofc Welbeck will be alot better for them. Remy went to Chelsea yes, but only because Arsenal stepped in too late for him, probably because he wasn't their only target at the time (Welbeck obviously being the one they'd want). But if we would have said from the start, we aren't selling to Arsenal then they might have been in for Remy sooner. And Huntelaar was one of their back ups for Welbeck aswell. The point I was trying to make is that Arsenal would have gotten a striker regardless of our decision about Welbeck.

If he is what they need and how much stronger he'll make them, we'll just have to wait and see about that.

And obviously replacing a striker that couldn't even get a starting position for us with a striker that is rated as one of the best in the world makes a huge difference in terms of our chances for top 4. To think anything else is just ridiculous !

Ofcourse we aren't the same club anymore that used to get 1st or 2nd no matter what, but it is our aim to become that club again. It is not because we had Moyes turning is into the new Everton that we have to uphold an Everton mentality...

We are Manchester United, we have one of the most renowed and most succesfull coaches in football as our manager, we have bought the best striker in the world to compete with Rooney and RVP, we have signed one of the best players from the best club in the world in a record transfer, we have finally added 2 good midfielders to our team and you are still pissing your pants about Arsenal getting stronger by signing Welbeck. Fecking grow a pair ! If we can't do it with these players and manager, than it doesn't matter if Arsenal gets Welbeck or not, than we'll likley never make it !
 
United22 said:
Remy went to Chelsea, and don't make me laugh with Zigic :lol:

We fecked up selling them exactly what they needed, doesn't matter if we replaced him with Falcao. We aren't the same club that used to get 1st/2nd no matter what happened in the league: we have been fecked ever since SAF left and it will be a battle to get into the top 4 , one that won't be made any easier by a stronger Arsenal
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It's not like we actively touted him to Arsenal like we would a certain Mr A Young, he chose to go there and we had to do right by him. The bigger picture is how we extract the best from the players we have here, better players with the potential to tear this league a new one. We may be proven, in time, to have pulled a Madrid-Eto'o but the fact is we gave Welbeck a much fairer shot and a very long leash and it didn't happen but such is our size, we will always have the resources to bring in a more accomplished player. In fact the reason we are in this ditch is because of our propensity to offer too many second chances to under performers and our reluctance, in years gone by, to spend on the necessary areas before it became too late. We also have a younger player with a higher ceiling than him who we need to give games to for him to prosper. I didn't like the decision but I totally understand it, it's just sad that gabbage like Young, Valencia and Anderson outstayed him.
 
NoArroJusBeta said:
You do understand that we sold Welbeck and replaced him with Falcao, that is an upgrade, that is something that improves our chances for top 4, not lowers them. You can ofcourse talk about how we strenghtend Arsenal by letting them have Welbeck and brought increased competition on ourselves, but you also have to realise that Arsenal could have brought in another striker (they were also in for Remy and Huntelaar and Zigic) if we had said no to a Welbeck transfer, so in the end that argument might not be as clear cut as many people think it is. It is not like Welbeck was their only option.

In the end I also think a club like United needs to believe in its own strenghts and qualities, what kind of weak excuse for a club would we be if we'd be trying to increase our chances on top 4 by weaking Arsenal. We are Manchester United, we are not supposed to be afraid of a little competition and we belive in our qualities and strenght to get the job done. If we get top 4 it should be because we are good enough to be in there and not because Arsenal aren't good enough to be in there. Also it is Welbeck we are talking about, player that was 3th or 4th choice for us, 26 goals in 4 years, it is not like we sold them the best striker in the league or something like that. If Welbeck to Arsenal would make us wet our undies in terms of improved competition than there would be something seriously wrong with us.

The only fair point is that we lost out an academy player that had alot of potential and mileage left in him and that in the long term we will miss out on the opportunity of having him lead our line if he'd develop into a good striker. Which is something that might result into us having to purchase a new striker within 2 years time when RVP hits 33 and will need replacing. But so what we have an exciting prospect in Wilson who strikes me as a more naturaly gifted striker than Welbeck and we also have Powell who might trun out to be a striker and Will Keane, and we have a shitload of money so if we do need to buy a new player in 2 years time than so what, it is not like we can't afford it.
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I think you've misinterpreted my post. My underlying point is that the sale of Welbeck was irrelevant.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
The only thing that bothers me about this transfer, is not that he has gone, but the fee involved. We should have got a lot more money than £16m. There again, if he had gone for a lot more people would be saying, if he is worth that much, why are we selling him?
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Doesn't matter. Maybe they'll just go easier on us when we go in for their next Van Persie! ;)
 
NoArroJusBeta said:
You can't hope for much more than that from a striker with 26 goals in 4 years...

United fans may think he is one of the biggest british talents and that he is very close to becoming an allround super striker but honestly nobody else thinks that. Welbeck isn't hot anymore, he ain't new, there is no hype around him, he has failed to establish himself as a player here at United. People seem to think we should have sold him for a fee of £30m or something. It is not because we went crazy in the market overpaying for certain players that other teams will follow that lead. He is also no Sturridge yet, maybay in retrospect Chelsea did a bad deal with letting him go to Liverpool, but at that time the fee involved for Sturridge was fair. Just like how the fee for Welbeck is fair, we'll just have to see and wait if Arsenal can turn him around like Liverpool turned Sturridge around. What I'am trying to say is you can't expect Arsenal to pay as much for Welbeck as what somebody like Sturddige is worth now. He went for more as Balotelli, given the stats of Welbeck and Balotelli I think the fee we received certainly ain't bad.
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English tax. He's 23, He's an England international - a starting one at that - and played regularly (albeit out of position) for us for many-a year. Lallana went for £20 odd million, Shaw went for £27 million.... hello, the fee for Andros sodding Townsend was around 14/15mil apparently. In no way shape or form is the fee for Welbeck "fair" when you consider the other deals that occurred in this window. Arsenal stole him from us and, from a purely business/financial perspective, it was a piss-poor move from us.

The Balotelli comparison is also doesn't really work - considering a) the baggage Balotelli comes with b) he's not English and c) A.C Milan desperately wanted rid.
 
JazzG said:
By the same token then you might as well loan out or get rid of Januzaj & Wilson as well because they might cost you points. Fergie got your club to where it is by thinking long term not just taking the easy simple solution.
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Speak said:
Striker's slightly different to midfield. Same goes for centre back, which is why so few teams in the Premier League (especially higher up the table) are willing to give young centre backs a long term role, but will regularly play a young left/right back.

You see promoted teams recycle the same older centre backs and strikers constantly.
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I think top teams who competed for trophies every season has this issue for centerbacks, strikers and goalkeepers.
How many starting strikers, central defenders and goalkeepers that top clubs who competes for trophies year in year out in Europe comes from their youth team anyway? I can think a few, but they are absolutely world class talent from a very young age. From the top of my head.
Casillas at Madrid: World class talent
Messi at Barcelona: Best player in the planet, and even he has to play on the wing and compete with strikers like Eto'o and Zlatan before he got his central role
Muller at Bayern: World class talent, top scorer in World Cup at 20 years old, and he have to play across attacking midfield positions.
Terry at Chelsea: World class talent, who grabbed his chance when it was given to him.

The fact is, there are very little room for mistakes at clubs like Bayern, Barca, Madrid, United size and aspirations. Youth players who are just very good or needed time to develop are very rarely become a starter at the club.
 
golazo said:
Maybe you're just a sentimental lad. I've never felt that way towards players at my local clubs in the AFL and A-League. They're just players - they come and go. They don't give a shit about you, so why should you for them?

I care more about Falcao because he plays for Manchester United. I don't care about the player who left for whatever reason who now plays for 1 of our biggest rivals, at all. It's not like he was a star for us. Where's our Cleverley mega thread?
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AFL players show FAR more loyalty towards their clubs than (excuse the term) 'soccer' players.
 
Now Neville is having a pop at "strange" Man Utd for the sale of wellbeck. I am guessing he is wrong too?
 
birdy2121 said:
Me or Neville? And what happens when the truth is uncomfortable should it be suppressed in the interests of happy but deluded faces.
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Yeah sorry I meant Neville. Why can't he at least wait until the season has progressed more and then judge if selling Danny was a mistake.

I like Neville as much as the next guy and he's very good on MNF but Christ he's a miserable git.
 
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Archie Leach said:
Yeah I'm very attached to most Hawthorn players. Couldn't give two shits about Melbourne Victory's though.
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Me too. No doubt Hodge and Mitchell (and a few others) would have been offered bigger dollars to play elsewhere throughout their career at some point.

Franklin was offered a once-in-a-lifetime contract and had it with the Melbourne Media attention, so I don't blame him for moving on (I do wish we still had him though - it's like the super-hot GF you had for only a week before she dumped your arse for the jock... You will always have a thing for her in a sad way).

Geelong players all took pay-cuts in order to keep the core of such a dominant side together, and once again Ablett was offered a huge deal so fair enough he moved on.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Why, he can't be wrong?
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He can be of course be wrong, but i do find it odd lots of people who have played for UTD and have been close to the club are mystified with Utd's spending strategy this summer, but people on here on mass won't hear a bad word against it.
 
ZDwyr said:
Agree with this wholeheartedly.
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I daresay the new system will somewhat challenge players loyalties though. I expect a fair few more will use it to their advantage.

The smaller teams will end up paying overs for mediocre players in order to meet the salary cap minimum, whilst the better teams may be able to lure the better players across.
 
birdy2121 said:
Now Neville is having a pop at "strange" Man Utd for the sale of wellbeck. I am guessing he is wrong too?
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Neville proved last season that he's prone to outlandish bursts of sentimentality and nationalism (in football) that are bordering on xenophobic.

The notion of selling Welbeck and buying Falcao would obviously leave a Utd old-boy neophobe like Neville reeling initially.

He was also insisting last season, passionately, that 'David Moyes is going nowhere for a long while yet'.

I love him as a personality and as a pundit as long as he's NOT talking about United.
 
birdy2121 said:
He can be of course be wrong, but i do find it odd lots of people who have played for UTD and have been close to the club are mystified with Utd's spending strategy this summer, but people on here on mass won't hear a bad word against it.
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Well Neville has a recent history of being extremely overprotective of English players. I really don't pay much attention to what he says about English players these days. Also, who else is mystified by our transfer activity? It's more of a media driven shitstorm than anything else.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Well Neville has a recent history of being extremely overprotective of English players. I really don't pay much attention to what he says about English players these days. Also, who else is mystified by our transfer activity? It's more of a media driven shitstorm than anything else.
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Many our old assistant manager and Michael Owen to name two.
 
Ridiculous, Gary.

Falcao is a massive upgrade not only on Welbeck, but on Rooney himself.

As for Arsenal, our real threat to a top four finish is Liverpool.

End of.
 
birdy2121 said:
He can be of course be wrong, but i do find it odd lots of people who have played for UTD and have been close to the club are mystified with Utd's spending strategy this summer, but people on here on mass won't hear a bad word against it.
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Nothing odd at all, proven in last season. Also, Scholes said in his recent article that our team should spread the ball outwide more( aka Moyes' tactic) make me wonder if Neville/ Scholes really know any thing more than English football? Yes, they may be good pundits and obviously know more than most people but I bet they would do a shit job if you threw a real team for them to manage ,no offense.
 
The whole scenario is getting out of hand.

It wasn't United that forced Danny out, he wanted to leave and you can't complain of his reasoning. He wants to be a first team player playing as the main striker for a top four team. No manager would put Danny as the main striker when you have Rooney or RvP in your squad, add the possibility of having Falcao, Danny was 4th choice as the main striker for the 14/15 season.

It been reported that United tried to keep him, but couldn't guarantee the game time, Danny was worried he might lose his England spot, and at his age he needs to be playing week-in week-out.

A club like United need to be fighting for league titles and cups every year; when a chance to improve your first team comes a long you take it. People seem to be complaining that it was a bad decision, but Danny hasn't even played a game for Arsenal yet. The time to judge is at the end of the league season. If Danny turns out to be the difference between us and Arsenal then we can admit we made a mistake, if not, then I don't think there is a problem. He got his wish, we got money and the best out and out striker in world football.
 
I don't think Neville's criticism is entirely due to selling Welbeck. I think his criticism was aimed at helping out Arsenal's striker situation who will be competing for top 4.
 
NoArroJusBeta said:
You can't hope for much more than that from a striker with 26 goals in 4 years...

United fans may think he is one of the biggest british talents and that he is very close to becoming an allround super striker but honestly nobody else thinks that. Welbeck isn't hot anymore, he ain't new, there is no hype around him, he has failed to establish himself as a player here at United. People seem to think we should have sold him for a fee of £30m or something. It is not because we went crazy in the market overpaying for certain players that other teams will follow that lead. He is also no Sturridge yet, maybay in retrospect Chelsea did a bad deal with letting him go to Liverpool, but at that time the fee involved for Sturridge was fair. Just like how the fee for Welbeck is fair, we'll just have to see and wait if Arsenal can turn him around like Liverpool turned Sturridge around. What I'am trying to say is you can't expect Arsenal to pay as much for Welbeck as what somebody like Sturddige is worth now. He went for more as Balotelli, given the stats of Welbeck and Balotelli I think the fee we received certainly ain't bad.
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To be fair almost any 23 year old striker would have failed here when competing with the likes of Rooney, RVP and Falcao, whom we are paying huge wages every week too.
 
Gannicus said:
Ridiculous, Gary.

Falcao is a massive upgrade not only on Welbeck, but on Rooney himself.

As for Arsenal, our real threat to a top four finish is Liverpool.

End of.
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Huh? What are you saying here? That makes no sense.

Unless it means what I think it means and your powers of prediction are so good I expect you to win an awful lot of money from the bookies. If so, share the wealth and give us the final league placing of all the top 6 teams, seeing as you're apparently able to be that precise.

For the record, Neville is absolutely spot on. With everything he said. He isn't always but he is today.
 
This whole saga is getting really tiresome now. Roll on QPR and Falcao and we can all move on.
 
I find it naive to discuss a person's opinion without acknowledging their agenda. Phelan has been out of football for more then a year, which in this kind of sports, is a pretty long period of time. He's probably SAF's only assistant manager who has never been offered a job elsewhere. Rene's career outside OT has been comical if not tragic. For someone so pompous about his achievements that's a kick at the teeth for him. Gaz on the other hand is England's assistant manager. His job relies heavily on England players and he wouldn't want to piss them off.

I am sure that the former two would be desperate to join VG team to provide their 'expertise' to him. However VG has snubbed them both. In Moyes case they had the excuse that he was a small time manager, a loser stuck to the long ball era and who couldn't appreciate the incredible coaching staff SAF has left. However this excuse cant be applied with VG, a man who had won a lot with clubs in three different nations. Making the right noises to an already under pressure manager may be the only way for these people to get a job back to top flight football.

In my opinion we should stick to facts. Welbeck has handled his second transfer request to United. We wanted to send him on loan but he refused. Selling him for 16m may be madness but so was selling Phil Neville for a couple of millions just to secure the deal with the club he wanted to play with. United has never been arseholes with their homegrown talent.
 
Gary is spot on. Selling Welbeck to Arsenal for only £16M is just madness.
It's in the same range we bought Valencia, Young, Jones and Zaha for. I'd take Welbeck over all of them (OK, now Jones is worth that kind of money..).

A fair price for Welbeck to Arse would be at least another £10M slapped on him.
 
John Blund said:
Gary is spot on. Selling Welbeck to Arsenal for only £16M is just madness.
It's in the same range we bought Valencia, Young, Jones and Zaha for. I'd take Welbeck over all of them (OK, now Jones is worth that kind of money..).

A fair price for Welbeck to Arse would be at least another £10M slapped on him.
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Of course we should have asked for 25 million. No team would have paid that though.
 
Yeah the price we got for him was really disappointing. He's definitely worth more than that.
 
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