26 goals in 4 years and people suddenly think he's going to bag 30 a season at Arsenal.
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player
- Thread starter KiD MoYeS
- Start date
- Status
What I said, yo.
Don't think that is fair on guys like Evra, Keane, Rio, Ole and countless others who in your terms were not 'one of our own'. Those guys loved the club just because they didn't come through the youth system they are not any lesser than a Danny Welbeck.
I guess you feel the same affinity with guys like O'Shea and Wes Brown.
Wes yep. Was sad to see him go even though his time was up. O' Shea no of course not. I'm a Mancunian. Surely it's not difficult to understand that a Mancunian can have more of an affinity for a local? Thats just natural and nothing to do with fairness.
Mad. Only on here.
I can understand your POV tbh. But don't think it's fair on the other players who give everything for the club.
The big thing that I think is being overlooked is: no matter how he plays for Arsenal, at United he would not (under any manager) have had the games to eventually put in the same performances. If in 2 years time he's banging in 25 goals a season... It is irrelevant to the discussion of whether he is good enough for United. Not because he didn't have the potential to be good enough, but because at United he would never have been given the time to realise any big potential.
Therefore unless he instantly becomes a 25 goal per season striker (ie this season), any discussion about his potential at Arsenal (in relation to whether United should have let him go) is a pointless discussion. The discussion regarding Welbeck and United should be centered around 2011 - 2013 whereby Welbeck should have been loaned out and playing consistently up front so that he'd develop enough to be a first team player at United. I wouldn't be surprised if he were a very good striker with much improved finishing right now, pushing Rooney/RVP all the way, had he been sent out of loan during those time periods.
As I've said previously: United don't have the time or the inclination to develop strikers. This is because we want to win titles in the present and in the centre forward position (as well as goalkeeper) you can't do this whilst having player's who will cost you points because they are still learning their trade. That's the reason out last youth product to make it to our first XI as a striker consistently has been Mark Hughes (God knows about our last successful Goalkeeper to make it from the youth team?).
United buy World Class strikers. If Welbeck becomes a World Class striker, we will buy him (or someone similar/better) for a very high fee. So no-one on here should be mourning the loss of Danny Welbeck.
Therefore unless he instantly becomes a 25 goal per season striker (ie this season), any discussion about his potential at Arsenal (in relation to whether United should have let him go) is a pointless discussion. The discussion regarding Welbeck and United should be centered around 2011 - 2013 whereby Welbeck should have been loaned out and playing consistently up front so that he'd develop enough to be a first team player at United. I wouldn't be surprised if he were a very good striker with much improved finishing right now, pushing Rooney/RVP all the way, had he been sent out of loan during those time periods.
As I've said previously: United don't have the time or the inclination to develop strikers. This is because we want to win titles in the present and in the centre forward position (as well as goalkeeper) you can't do this whilst having player's who will cost you points because they are still learning their trade. That's the reason out last youth product to make it to our first XI as a striker consistently has been Mark Hughes (God knows about our last successful Goalkeeper to make it from the youth team?).
United buy World Class strikers. If Welbeck becomes a World Class striker, we will buy him (or someone similar/better) for a very high fee. So no-one on here should be mourning the loss of Danny Welbeck.
Maybe you're just a sentimental lad. I've never felt that way towards players at my local clubs in the AFL and A-League. They're just players - they come and go. They don't give a shit about you, so why should you for them?
I care more about Falcao because he plays for Manchester United. I don't care about the player who left for whatever reason who now plays for 1 of our biggest rivals, at all. It's not like he was a star for us. Where's our Cleverley mega thread?
If you'd sold him to Sunderland or West Ham, I doubt there'd be half the outrage and tears that you see now.
Most definitely.
You make some good points. One thing to remember that Welbeck forced his way to play for one of our direct rivals against the clubs wishes, it's obvious he is only looking after no.1 which is fair enough. We as fans should be doing the same, Welbeck is just another player now, Falcao is ours we need to back him.
Great post.
So now Man Utd don't develop strikers or goalkeepers because they don't have time to do so, learn something new everyday....
We should tell Sam Johnstone & James Wilson to go somewhere else - we just don't have time for them.
We did a pretty good job of developing Danny Welbeck. Would Arsene Wenger pay 16 million quid for a striker who hadn't been developed properly?
Spot on.
You'll find that his point was that there is only so much time and games that we can give to young striker. Welbeck got that time and the games.
I don't think he would ever have gone to either of those clubs though as he's clearly at a level above that.
Well, what else should the club have done? Hold on to a player who was looking to move and was deemed to be only 4th choice?
Precisely. That as well as the crap in the media about how we're losing our identity.
Wouldn't be the first player that was looking to move who didn't get what he wanted. Suarez at Liverpool being one obvious example.
There's also the fact that this whole thing seems to have been initiated by the club. So the obvious way to avoid what happened would be to not try and sell him in the first place!
Last edited:
Upto a point that's true. Until we signed RVP his development was going very well. Since then there's no question that he has stalled a bit.
As it is, Danny has chosen the perfect club and the perfect circumstances to kick on to the next level. He should have 3 months of uninterrupted first team football in his favoured role with the likes of Ozil and Ramsay behind him. It's all set up for him to succeed.
Statistically, his best season ever came after we signed RvP.
True, but with the talent he had he should have been further along in his development after 3 years of first team action. Not all his fault of course. Last season probably made his mind up about leaving. He was never going to get a proper shot here.
I'd suggest some do and more than likely it's those with more of a connection to the club than a pay cheque. Ask Giggs or Scholes if they give a shit.
You use the term sentimental like its a weakness. I'd suggest the cynicism displayed in your post is a greater one and one that's infecting the game here in this country but thats another discussion
I'm not shedding any tears here for Welbeck. He wants out, club doesn't want him, good luck fella. I'm just explaining an affinity to the club and its people that seems lost on some including yourself obviously. That's what I find sadder than a local lad and a fan leaving.
Welbeck Vs Lukaku in the league.
Lukaku (2011/12 - 2014/15):
Minutes played: 5021
Goals: 32
Assists: 17
Minutes per goal: 156
Minutes per assist: 295
Minutes per goal/assist: 102
Welbeck (2008/09 - 2014/15):
Minutes played: 6836
Goals: 26
Assists: 14
Minutes per goal: 262
Minutes per assist: 488
Minutes per goal/assist: 170.9
All figures taken from Fantasy Premier League.
And a few other metrics for 2013/14, taken from Squawka's Comparison Matrix:
Lukaku (2011/12 - 2014/15):
Minutes played: 5021
Goals: 32
Assists: 17
Minutes per goal: 156
Minutes per assist: 295
Minutes per goal/assist: 102
Welbeck (2008/09 - 2014/15):
Minutes played: 6836
Goals: 26
Assists: 14
Minutes per goal: 262
Minutes per assist: 488
Minutes per goal/assist: 170.9
All figures taken from Fantasy Premier League.
And a few other metrics for 2013/14, taken from Squawka's Comparison Matrix:
Stats don't tell us much really. Plus they inevitably throw up the whole "Lukaku never played left wing in a 442" argument.
Feck me, though, what were we thinking letting him go for such a paltry fee? Strikers always carry a premium price (hence Lukaku cost almost 30 mill) so how on earth do Arsenal get to sign Welbeck for several million less than the likes of Adam Lallana?
Feck me, though, what were we thinking letting him go for such a paltry fee? Strikers always carry a premium price (hence Lukaku cost almost 30 mill) so how on earth do Arsenal get to sign Welbeck for several million less than the likes of Adam Lallana?
Suarez wasn't a 4th choice striker at Liverpool.
Also, this wasn't initiated by the club. Welbeck wanted to leave.
So what? The club still decided they didn't want him to strengthen a rival. Same way we didn't let second choice Gabby Heinze go to Liverpool (and Arsenal didn't want third choice Vermaelen move to us)
Nope. Don't think that's true at all. Comforting as it is to think that's what happened. By all accounts he was willing to stay and fight for his place.
If it hadn't been the final hour of the window we would have never sold to Arsenal. A combination of deadline day, Welbeck wanting to leave, us wanting to sell having signed Falcao and Welbeck not wanting to go anywhere else means 16m is probably the best we could have hoped for in the circumstances.
My point was, keeping a 4th choice striker, against his wishes isn't a decent thing to do.
As for the second point, you choose to believe stuff that suits your argument and I choose to believe stuff that suits mine, which is, by all accounts he wanted out for some time now.
Are you just making this up? or do you have any credible information?
This quote cam straight out of the horses mouth (his agent) on deadline day: "There have been a few clubs in for Danny and they’re looking for loan deals with a view to buying, but Danny doesn't want to go on loan"
"He wants a straight transfer and he has every right to say that"
http://talksport.com/football/arsen...y-man-united-140901111335#mPZCKV2F4yTkDrG9.99
It's clear to see the club didn't want a permanent move for him and they didn't want to sell him to Arse either. Hardly the sign of someone who wants to fight for their place.
These "loan deals with a view to buying" seem to have been proposals made to United by other clubs.
I can understand Danny wanting to get his future sorted this summer, once it had been made clear he wasn't wanted/needed at United. Presumably this also suited the club, hence they agreed to it.
Lukaku also 2 years younger is he not?
Pretty sure that was an agent (Jonathan Hope), but not in fact Welbeck's agent (he seems to be represented by Kick and Run Sports, a completely different agency). It was actually quite a hilarious interview where he was asked if he was representing Danny Welbeck and he said 'No, no, no' and then proceeded to give a bunch of 'inside info', which may have been genuine (or not) but it was clear that if anything at all he was representing clubs/forwarding interest rather than representing the player.
Seems like a rent-a-quote and could easily have been completely making it up.
Indeed it seems Welbeck said he had never heard of him.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ws-value-of-a-technical-director-9707493.html
He probably thought - and with some justification, I might add - that he's too well established now to be fannying around on loan at a mid-table club. That's the type of move you propose for young players in the development stage, not 23 year olds with 30 odd England caps.
If the club had made it clear to him that he wasn't going to be starting many games, then for the good of his own career, why not move on? It doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to. Just that he felt he had no choice to given the circumstances.
And if you're going to move, then going to Arsenal sure beats going to Hull or Newcastle.
I think we've essentially done him a favour, as a homegrown player, by allowing him to join a rival for a relatively low fee.
You might argue that strengthening a rival in such a way is bonkers, but maybe the management have faith that we've been sufficiently strengthened with the addition of Falcao, Di Maria, Shaw, Rojo and Blind for it to be a risk worth taking.
If the club had made it clear to him that he wasn't going to be starting many games, then for the good of his own career, why not move on? It doesn't necessarily mean he wanted to. Just that he felt he had no choice to given the circumstances.
And if you're going to move, then going to Arsenal sure beats going to Hull or Newcastle.
I think we've essentially done him a favour, as a homegrown player, by allowing him to join a rival for a relatively low fee.
You might argue that strengthening a rival in such a way is bonkers, but maybe the management have faith that we've been sufficiently strengthened with the addition of Falcao, Di Maria, Shaw, Rojo and Blind for it to be a risk worth taking.
Never read that article before. Agree completely with the main premise.
A less charitable interpretation would be that Woodward had been given strict instructions to recoup as much of our outrageous spending spree as possible by selling a list of players identified as "deadwood" before the transfer window closed. When he found himself unable to seal permanent deals for Hernandez, Cleverley, Nani, Fellaini and Anderson he was forced to sell Welbeck for below the market rate.
Could also be that, although we don't exactly appear to be needing the money at the moment . . .
We don't have the time to afford them consistent, guaranteed game time in their preferred position, which is really the only way to develop a player from a youngster to a World Class player. Playing Welbeck instead of RVP/Rooney these last 4 years would have cost us points. These points could well have prevented us from winning trophies.
The development in terms of Danny Welbeck as a centre forward has pretty much stalled since his Sunderland spell 4 years ago. You could argue his decision making is better outside the box, as well as his improved physical attributes, but certainly many other facets of his game which are vital to a centre forward, such as composure, finishing etc haven't really come along. Which is obvious as his game time has been severely restricted (to probably around 10-20% of the minutes you'd want him to be playing in his preferred position). I vaguely remember there was a reported offer from Bruce at Sunderland around £12-14m 4 years ago after his loan spell, but that we didn't want to let him go?
I'd love to see a Danny Welbeck who stayed at Sunderland another season, before going to Everton for 2 seasons. You could bet that even if we did let him go if he wasn't quite good enough, it would have been for a £26m fee ala Lukaku (as well as probably £15m in loan fees and c.£10m in wages paid). If we didn't we'd have a much more complete centre forward with well over 100 full games in his natural position coming back into the squad to compete with Rooney/RVP.
Chelsea have it right in respect of these vital positions. They let their player's learn their trade, make their mistakes and show if they have what it takes to make the grade elsewhere before either getting a good fee for them or bringing them back into the squad as top class players (see Courtois & Lukaku).
I just learned this also.
- Status