Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player

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SirAF said:
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic..
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I much doubt it. We tend to overrate our squad players a bit too much. Few months ago Paddy called Fortune a legend. A legend!! Can you believe it? Whose next? Lindegaard?

Some think I am being pedantic but honestly I believe that this attitude is acting as a big disservice toward youth talent who had reached the squad player role. We're making them think that they have made it. FFS there's still a massive gap between being a squad player and a first teamers. So much effort, hard work and improvement is still neededto be made for a squad player to become a regular first teamer.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
He's looking as ineffective as he often did for us now that he's been pushed out wide again. I think he started well there when Giroud was injured. He's okay as a wide forward, but not great.

I'd like to see him play in a side where he's the main centre forward. Perhaps he could replace Lukaku at Everton when Lukaku makes his move to Real Madrid, or wherever he thinks he should be playing.
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Lukaku will never be good enough to play as a striker for RM.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
All good, solid players, who played an important part in a lot of our recent success. Yet no United fan would ever have talked them up as being the best in the world (apart from, bizarrely, Pele's comments about Nicky Butt) What the feck are you on about them being overrated?
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I think they were overrated in their youth, with people thinking they would be exceptional player's. This isn't something unique to United though, every fan in the Country thinks the next generation has 1-2 World Class player's in the making. The fact is however the best you can usually hope for is a few decent squad player's who fill a gap that would otherwise cost you £10-15m to fill and that the passion of playing for a club you were brought up with brings something to the dressing room.

There was one post by @Rafateria this week: "We may even bring back Texeira (22), Ojo (17), Wisdom (21) and Ilori (22) from loan and are already bringing through, with 1st team games under their belts, Rossiter (18) & Williams (18) and we can also expect to see Wilson (17), Sinclair (17), Dunn (20) and Canos (18) join them soon : all young players are understandably inconsistent but many of these have already shown that they are going to be excellent buys and fixtures in the team for years to come."

Obviously the chances are that out of those 10 player's maybe 2-3 if they're lucky will become acceptable squad player's who contribute something and the rest will be sold for peanuts. However no fan wants to look at their youth team and say "well the best of our youngsters will probably never reach the level of even a mediocre squad player like Borini."

The fact is the last great player to come out of our academy was Scholes 22 years ago. All fall into the bolded category.
 
finneh said:
I think they were overrated in their youth, with people thinking they would be exceptional player's. This isn't something unique to United though, every fan in the Country thinks the next generation has 1-2 World Class player's in the making. The fact is however the best you can usually hope for is a few decent squad player's who fill a gap that would otherwise cost you £10-15m to fill and that the passion of playing for a club you were brought up with brings something to the dressing room.

There was one post by @Rafateria this week: "We may even bring back Texeira (22), Ojo (17), Wisdom (21) and Ilori (22) from loan and are already bringing through, with 1st team games under their belts, Rossiter (18) & Williams (18) and we can also expect to see Wilson (17), Sinclair (17), Dunn (20) and Canos (18) join them soon : all young players are understandably inconsistent but many of these have already shown that they are going to be excellent buys and fixtures in the team for years to come."

Obviously the chances are that out of those 10 player's maybe 2-3 if they're lucky will become acceptable squad player's who contribute something and the rest will be sold for peanuts. However no fan wants to look at their youth team and say "well the best of our youngsters will probably never reach the level of even a mediocre squad player like Borini."

The fact is the last great player to come out of our academy was Scholes 22 years ago. All fall into the bolded category.
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Agree with all of this. Fans invariably wildly overrate the potential of youngsters coming up through the ranks at their club.

As you say, though, getting even two or three squad players from your academy is an impressive and very worthwhile achievement.
 
I am not disputing the benefit of having a number of youth talent becoming squad players although I don't see such result as 'impressive' considered we are supposed to have one of the best youth academy in the world. I've yet to see Barcelona fans claiming how impressive their youth academy was because they have produced Bojan or Deulofou. It should be the same thing for us regarding OShea and Butt.
 
devilish said:
I am not disputing the benefit of having a number of youth talent becoming squad players although I don't see such result as 'impressive' considered we are supposed to have one of the best youth academy in the world. I've yet to see Barcelona fans claiming how impressive their youth academy was because they have produced Bojan or Deulofou. It should be the same thing for us regarding OShea and Butt.
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How many games have Bojan and Deolfeu played for Barca then?
 
How good looking is Monácos President wife? He got sacked because he got too cozy with the wife´s of Olympiakos President
 
akash02 said:
How many games have Bojan and Deolfeu played for Barca then?
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Different managers, different methods, a different squad

Do you think the likes of Bojan and Deulofou wouldn't have gotten more games if lets say they were British and happening to be United's homegrown talent in a team lead by SAF? SAF had a lot of patience with British and Irish kids and to be fair, he was untouchable for most of his career. A rash Philip Neville like tackle may cost him the title or a CL run but it wouldn't cost his career. Other managers do not have the same luxury.
 
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devilish said:
Different managers, different methods, a different squad

Do you think the likes of Bojan and Deulofou wouldn't have gotten more games if lets say they were British and happening to be United's homegrown talent in a team lead by SAF? SAF had a lot of patience with British and Irish kids and to be fair, he was untouchable for most of his career. A rash Philip Neville like tackle may cost him the title or a CL run but it wouldn't cost his career. Other managers do not have the same luxury.
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You didn't answer my question.
 
Fans tend to overrate players from their own team slightly. That's the nature of football. So add in a multiple trophy and honour winning team - & clearly their players will be talked up a little more. Especially considering that the players were homegrown and actually played a decent part in winning some of those trophies.

Let's not forget that when things went bad, those squad players were generally the first to become space goats (love that word :drool:) as well. So it went both ways.

I think once upon a time I referred to O'shea as a "world class", multiple position, squad player :drool:
 
akash02 said:
You didn't answer my question.
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I actually answered it.

Let me make it simple for you. How many games do you think the likes of OShea would have gotten in the Barcelona side? I shiver at the thought of him and Phil playing the tic tac game.
 
devilish said:
I actually answered it.

Let me make it simple for you. How many games do you think the likes of OShea would have gotten in the Barcelona side?
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No, you didn't. You asked a incredibly stupid question and then tried to get around it by talking crap.

O'Shea and Butt have more than 800+ games between them for United including two champions league final starts. You compared them to Bojan and Deolfeu who probably don't even have 50 games between them. If Barcelona had 2 players from the academy with more than 800+ between them I'd imagine their fans would be pretty chuffed and not spend their time on internet forums calling them overrated.
 
Ish84045 said:
Fans tend to overrate players from their own team slightly. That's the nature of football. So add in a multiple trophy and honour winning team - & clearly their players will be talked up a little more. Especially considering that the players were homegrown and actually played a decent part in winning some of those trophies.

Let's not forget that when things went bad, those squad players were generally the first to become space goats (love that word :drool:) as well. So it went both ways.

I think once upon a time I referred to O'shea as a "world class", multiple position, squad player :drool:
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space_goat_by_satyricart-d3ehrkj.jpg
 
Oh look, Welbeck isnt scoring as much when he is playing as a winger. This is brand new information and definitely proves that he is a bad striker.



:lol: this forum sometimes. Admittedly I didnt see their game last night, but Welbeck won the penalty for their opening goal against Palace, and assisted their other goal. Before that he was injured and missed several games, played against Spurs and scored against West Ham. So thats a goal and 2 assists from his last three league games, when playing primarily out wide.

According to premierleague.com he has played 1548 minutes in the league this season, scoring 4 goals and getting 6 assists. A 'decent' return but no more than that, considering the other attributes he brings to the team (Pace, workrate, linkup play).

As a comparison;

Welbeck has played 1548, scored 4, assisted 6.
Mata 1482, 5, 3
RVP: 1985, 10, 2
Falcao: 936, 4, 4
ADM: 1372, 3, 10
Rooney: 1935, 8, 4
(From premierleague.com)

Basically, Welbecks stats are fairly comparable. Again, nobody is claiming he is going to win the Golden Boot but he brings a lot of other factors to any team and his overall play this season has been good (as it was with us). Welbeck still has plenty of time to develop and become more clinical.
 
The worried talk from our fans at "losing" Welbeck to a rival has pretty much died down now, and he' the same for us, decent, hard working, and pacy, but not much of a goal threat, and certainly not from out wide.

He perhaps has a couple of goals more than Falcao so far this season, if you count that hatrick early on in Europe, but we're still talking piffling totals for players at top teams!
 
Walrus said:
Oh look, Welbeck isnt scoring as much when he is playing as a winger. This is brand new information and definitely proves that he is a bad striker.



:lol: this forum sometimes. Admittedly I didnt see their game last night, but Welbeck won the penalty for their opening goal against Palace, and assisted their other goal. Before that he was injured and missed several games, played against Spurs and scored against West Ham. So thats a goal and 2 assists from his last three league games, when playing primarily out wide.

According to premierleague.com he has played 1548 minutes in the league this season, scoring 4 goals and getting 6 assists. A 'decent' return but no more than that, considering the other attributes he brings to the team (Pace, workrate, linkup play).

As a comparison;

Welbeck has played 1548, scored 4, assisted 6.
Mata 1482, 5, 3
RVP: 1985, 10, 2
Falcao: 936, 4, 4
ADM: 1372, 3, 10
Rooney: 1935, 8, 4
(From premierleague.com)

Basically, Welbecks stats are fairly comparable. Again, nobody is claiming he is going to win the Golden Boot but he brings a lot of other factors to any team and his overall play this season has been good (as it was with us). Welbeck still has plenty of time to develop and become more clinical.
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People have been saying this for about 3 years now.

No one is particularly arguing that he's shite. Most people recognise him to be a decent, hard-working player, but there was a massive frenzy when he left there, as if we'd gotten rid of a potentially world class forward.

You say he doesn't score as much when he's on the wing, but the very reason he's playing there in the first place is because managers don't seem to really rate him as a forward, because his finishing is incredibly inconsistent. Most of the other players you've mentioned there have, at one point or another in their career, shown themselves to be world class players, even if they're past that level now. Welbeck hasn't.

I think you're kind of looking for an agenda here where one doesn't exist.
 
Cheesy said:
People have been saying this for about 3 years now.

No one is particularly arguing that he's shite. Most people recognise him to be a decent, hard-working player, but there was a massive frenzy when he left there, as if we'd gotten rid of a potentially world class forward.

You say he doesn't score as much when he's on the wing, but the very reason he's playing there in the first place is because managers don't seem to really rate him as a forward, because his finishing is incredibly inconsistent. Most of the other players you've mentioned there have, at one point or another in their career, shown themselves to be world class players, even if they're past that level now. Welbeck hasn't.

I think you're kind of looking for an agenda here where one doesn't exist.
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TBH its true though. Many strikers develop quite late like around 24/25
 
Cheesy said:
People have been saying this for about 3 years now.

No one is particularly arguing that he's shite. Most people recognise him to be a decent, hard-working player, but there was a massive frenzy when he left there, as if we'd gotten rid of a potentially world class forward.

You say he doesn't score as much when he's on the wing, but the very reason he's playing there in the first place is because managers don't seem to really rate him as a forward, because his finishing is incredibly inconsistent. Most of the other players you've mentioned there have, at one point or another in their career, shown themselves to be world class players, even if they're past that level now. Welbeck hasn't.

I think you're kind of looking for an agenda here where one doesn't exist.
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There is no agenda, merely that Welbeck gets a lot of flak and accusations (not good enough for a top team, never going to make it etc) for putting in similar performances and form to a lot of our 'stars'.
 
Cheesy said:
People have been saying this for about 3 years now.

No one is particularly arguing that he's shite. Most people recognise him to be a decent, hard-working player, but there was a massive frenzy when he left there, as if we'd gotten rid of a potentially world class forward.

You say he doesn't score as much when he's on the wing, but the very reason he's playing there in the first place is because managers don't seem to really rate him as a forward, because his finishing is incredibly inconsistent. Most of the other players you've mentioned there have, at one point or another in their career, shown themselves to be world class players, even if they're past that level now. Welbeck hasn't.

I think you're kind of looking for an agenda here where one doesn't exist.
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Yup. Some just come in here looking for a row and will use any stats to try get one over. As you said, no one is slating him, they are merely calling it as it is: Welbeck works hard but just lacks that edge that would make him a top player. As such, he's pretty average and has been average so far for Arsenal. I see a-lot of Arsenal fans are saying the same, i.e, hard working but not what they need.
 
Walrus said:
There is no agenda, merely that Welbeck gets a lot of flak and accusations (not good enough for a top team, never going to make it etc) for putting in similar performances and form to a lot of our 'stars'.
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Those stars have got a lot of flak this season too.
 
sizzling sausages said:
Those stars have got a lot of flak this season too.
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I really don't get the whole "oh look Falcao has the same amount of league goals as Welbeck" lark. Everyone acknowledges that our 'star' players have generally been poor and are playing in a disjointed team with a new manger. Arsenal have played far better more fluid attacking football than us, so in reality, Welbeck should have better stats by now. Using our players as a yardstick smacks as agenda driven nonsense and is a poor barometer. Why not compare him to other similar players in a top 5/6 team; a team that, you know, isn't playing utter gash.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I really don't get the whole "oh look Falcao has the same amount of league goals as Welbeck" lark. Everyone acknowledges that our 'star' players have generally been poor and are playing in a disjointed team with a new manger. Arsenal have played far better more fluid attacking football than us, so in reality, Welbeck should have better stats by now. Using our players as a yardstick smacks as agenda driven nonsense and is a poor barometer. Why not compare him to other similar players in a top 5/6 team; a team that, you know, isn't playing utter gash.
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I can understand comparing Welbeck to Falcao and Van Persie tbh as they're who he would've been competing with if he stayed but most would agree that both Van Persie and Falcao have had bad seasons so saying his record is comparable to theirs isn't really anything to write home about. Shouldn't really be compared to Rooney, Mata and Di Maria though as he's played more games up front than those three combined.
 
sizzling sausages said:
I can understand comparing Welbeck to Falcao and Van Persie tbh as they're who he would've been competing with if he stayed but most would agree that both Van Persie and Falcao have had bad seasons so saying his record is comparable to theirs isn't really anything to write home about. Shouldn't really be compared to Rooney, Mata and Di Maria though as he's played more games up front than those three combined.
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The comparisons to Falcao and RvP are kind of null and void, for me. Look at the latest Falcao thread, most don't want him. No one is claiming that RvP and Falcao have been good, in fact, they get lambasted on here. It's a very poor barometer. Of course, in hindsight, keeping Welbeck and not signing Falcao would have been a better option. But that's not saying much, given Falcao has clearly failed to recover from his injury and looks a shadow of the player he was. It would be different if everyone on here was hailing RvP and Falcao, but that's not the case at all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Agree with all of this. Fans invariably wildly overrate the potential of youngsters coming up through the ranks at their club.

As you say, though, getting even two or three squad players from your academy is an impressive and very worthwhile achievement.
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Have to differentiate between academy proper products and top talents poached around 15-16 years old.

Of the latter, Pique-Pogba-G.Rossi all were excellent players by age 22, they just left after not being given the chance they deserved.

Welbeck-Fletcher-Brown-O'Shea, meanwhile, who were really developed here, all did well here (Welbeck excepted maybe) and maybe could have done a bit better in Fletcher and Brown's case with better injury luck.

If the pattern holds, Januzaj, Pereira and Fosu-Mensah will be starring around Europe by 2017 and Wilson, a midfielder like Pearson or Goss, and one of McNair or Blackett will have very productive but not quite spectacular careers here.
 
Walrus said:
Oh look, Welbeck isnt scoring as much when he is playing as a winger. This is brand new information and definitely proves that he is a bad striker.
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He wasn't scoring even when he played as a striker. Giroud scored more despite playing less than him.

Many people here claimed that he'll be a better striker than Giroud. Which was quite laughable.
 
Revan said:
He wasn't scoring even when he played as a striker. Giroud scored more despite playing less than him.

Many people here claimed that he'll be a better striker than Giroud. Which was quite laughable.
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Shows how underrated Giroud is around here and how overrated Welbeck is. It's the Arsenal fans on here claiming the same thing that baffled me. Maybe they needed a saviour and wanted to pin their hopes on Welbeck somehow eh emulating Henry.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I really don't get the whole "oh look Falcao has the same amount of league goals as Welbeck" lark. Everyone acknowledges that our 'star' players have generally been poor and are playing in a disjointed team with a new manger. Arsenal have played far better more fluid attacking football than us, so in reality, Welbeck should have better stats by now. Using our players as a yardstick smacks as agenda driven nonsense and is a poor barometer. Why not compare him to other similar players in a top 5/6 team; a team that, you know, isn't playing utter gash.
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But again, you are ignoring the fact that Welbeck was a part of that better, attacking football. Just because that didnt always translate to a goal or assist doesnt mean that he didnt contribute to it.
 
Walrus said:
But again, you are ignoring the fact that Welbeck was a part of that better, attacking football. Just because that didnt always translate to a goal or assist doesnt mean that he didnt contribute to it.
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On the flip side, when he's been subbed / not starting, Arsenal look just as good in that department. He really hasn't improved Arsenal as a team at all. I think he'll be benched next season, personally.
 
Robbie Boy said:
On the flip side, when he's been subbed / not starting, Arsenal look just as good in that department. He really hasn't improved Arsenal as a team at all. I think he'll be benched next season, personally.
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Perhaps, so then he is playing at around the same level as the other players - not substantially better or worse. He has time on his side and in my opinion will improve as he gets more gametime (which he didnt get at United, in my opinion).
 
Walrus said:
Perhaps, so then he is playing at around the same level as the other players - not substantially better or worse. He has time on his side and in my opinion will improve as he gets more gametime (which he didnt get at United, in my opinion).
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So he went to Arsenal where he isnt a regular and isnt playing up front. And to which level he will improve. We've be hearing the same stuff for a long time and he's at the same level as for us. Not to mention comparisons with Henry and 30 goal season and similar crazy stuff.
 
Mali_Zeus said:
So he went to Arsenal where he isnt a regular and isnt playing up front. And to which level he will improve. We've be hearing the same stuff for a long time and he's at the same level as for us. Not to mention comparisons with Henry and 30 goal season and similar crazy stuff.
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Of course he is a regular. He is a regular for a top 4 team, contributing to a fluid and threatening attacking lineup.

Nobody is talking about Henry comparisons except for you - but to claim that he wont/cant improve when he is now playing regularly, is a laughable notion.
 
Walrus said:
Of course he is a regular. He is a regular for a top 4 team, contributing to a fluid and threatening attacking lineup.

Nobody is talking about Henry comparisons except for you - but to claim that he wont/cant improve when he is now playing regularly, is a laughable notion.
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Except from me? it was all over media and here people were claiming he ll score 30 goals. As I said,nothing has changed,he is average and I dont think he will improve much.
its certainly not laughable,he wouldnt be the first or last player who didnt improve despite playing regulary
 
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