Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

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England didn't press anyone at all, I think the idea was to be as compact as possible and let the other team play into a condensed space where Parker can heroically throw himself in front of it.

It would have been redundant for Danny to chase after Pirlo's shadow, he has 7 team mates within easy passing range at any time, the odd time he does get him to fluff a pass, it'll bounce off to a blue shirt, or he'll be on his own for 20minutes while a forlift truck reverses up the pitch carrying England's midfield.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
That is exactly the point that I have been trying to make about him in the past few weeks. He just doesn't do enough and I feel that when he plays for United too. In the next few years he has to do more because he doesn't score or create enough to justify his limited participation in general play. I am also unsure if he has the required attributes to significantly improve these areas, he is not quick or mobile enough and his finishing is mediocre but more crucially he just doesn't get enough shots on goal in the first place.
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Limited participation in general play? His ability to play one-touch football is among his best attributes...
 
Ubik said:
Limited participation in general play? His ability to play one-touch football is among his best attributes...
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Last year in the Premier League made an average of 24.2 passes per game which to contrast is about half as many as Wayne Rooney. Robin Van Persie made 27.2 passes per game, there is nothing wrong with being that limited in general play if you score and create as much as Van Persie does but Welbeck doesn't get anywhere near as many goals and assists as RVP.

That is the crux of my point, that he doesn't have enough end product to justify his limited participation in general play. It is quite easy to see with your own eyes that he doesn't get involved enough if you watch most of his games and the stats fully back up that perception.

Furthermore I don't feel that he is mobile enough on the pitch and this is indicative by the low amount of shots on goal that he gets for United, again about half as much as Wayne Rooney per game in the Premier League.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Last year in the Premier League made an average of 24.2 passes per game which to contrast is about half as many as Wayne Rooney. Robin Van Persie made 27.2 passes per game, there is nothing wrong with being that limited in general play if you score and create as much as Van Persie does but Welbeck doesn't get anywhere near as many goals and assists as RVP.

That is the crux of my point, that he doesn't have enough end product to justify his limited participation in general play. It is quite easy to see with your own eyes that he doesn't get involved enough if you watch most of his games and the stats fully back up that perception.

Furthermore I don't feel that he is mobile enough on the pitch and this is indicative by the low amount of shots on goal that he gets for United, again about half as much as Wayne Rooney per game in the Premier League.
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Isn't the difference in the amount of passes down to Rooney playing a deeper role, sometimes even close to central midfield with Welbeck as the front line striker?
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Isn't the difference in the amount of passes down to Rooney playing a deeper role, sometimes even close to central midfield with Welbeck as the front line striker?
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You would be correct. Would never have Van Persie down as having "limited participation" either.

Welbeck always shows for the ball, makes runs and gets involved. Tends to keep possession as well.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Isn't the difference in the amount of passes down to Rooney playing a deeper role, sometimes even close to central midfield with Welbeck as the front line striker?
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Yes but then you would expect your front line striker to score more and assist more, which is my whole point. The reality is that Rooney outscores him too, of course there is a perception that Welbeck is a poor finisher but if you look at the stats then the first issue is that he doesn't get enough attempts on goal in the first place, around half as many as RVP and Rooney.

This seems to be the conundrum because Welbeck is a worker forward but I don't feel that he is mobile enough or quick enough to play like that and have enough effect on the game.

There is nothing wrong with him as a player, he is very good but I just wonder how he can significantly improve without changing his game and if he will be enough to be a first name on the teamsheet player for United in years to come.

Ubik said:
You would be correct. Would never have Van Persie down as having "limited participation" either.

Welbeck always shows for the ball, makes runs and gets involved. Tends to keep possession as well.
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RVP doesn't have limited participation because he got THREE times as many goals and assists as Welbeck last season.
 
Ubik said:
You would be correct. Would never have Van Persie down as having "limited participation" either.

Welbeck always shows for the ball, makes runs and gets involved. Tends to keep possession as well.
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Yep. People really need to watch the match around the ball instead of focusing on the player with it. Welbeck is very clever with his movement and shows for the ball very often, when he gets the ball he uses it well too..
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
RVP doesn't have limited participation because he got THREE times as many goals and assists as Welbeck last season.
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That's good, but also beside the point I'm making. I'm not sure Van Persie is thought of by anyone as just someone that pops up on the ball occasionally, he's generally involved with the build up. Welbeck needs to up his productivity, I have no argument with that (and as he's only 21 and played only one full season for us, it's a fair bet he will), but he's still as active as a front man as you could expect.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
RVP doesn't have limited participation because he got THREE times as many goals and assists as Welbeck last season.
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Would you care to hazard a guess at how many goals Van Persie scored when he was Welbeck's age, in his first season with Arsenal?

edit: Actually, I'm not sure why I'm being cryptic. Van Persie managed 10 goals and 1 assist playing for Arsenal in 04-05. Welbeck got 12 goals and 6 assists in his equivalent season.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
That is exactly the point that I have been trying to make about him in the past few weeks. He just doesn't do enough and I feel that when he plays for United too. In the next few years he has to do more because he doesn't score or create enough to justify his limited participation in general play. I am also unsure if he has the required attributes to significantly improve these areas, he is not quick or mobile enough and his finishing is mediocre but more crucially he just doesn't get enough shots on goal in the first place.
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:confused:

Erm. With 24.5 passes per game Welbeck averaged more passes than Berbatov or Hernandez last season. He's our second fastest striker, arguably our most mobile outside the box (Hernandez is leagues above most when inside the box) and at 2.7 per match he averaged our 2nd highest shots per game behind Rooney.

On another note entirely, one area where he wasnt that brilliant last season was with aerial challenges. Today he did very well with that, winning 3 which is more than any of his team mates.
 
Ubik said:
That's good, but also beside the point I'm making. I'm not sure Van Persie is thought of by anyone as just someone that pops up on the ball occasionally, he's generally involved with the build up. Welbeck needs to up his productivity, I have no argument with that (and as he's only 21 and played only one full season for us, it's a fair bet he will), but he's still as active as a front man as you could expect.
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I am not saying that he won't improve and get a lot better as in theory he should do. Look, he is a good player already but I think that he needs to gamble more, he seems to play safe at times. Like you say, he doesn't often give the ball away but I would just like to see roll the dice, you know.

That said, he nearly scored a brilliant goal tonight but that was his only shot. He either needs to get in the mix more or become incredibly clinical.

Ekeke said:
:confused:

Erm. With 24.5 passes per game Welbeck averaged more passes than Berbatov or Hernandez last season. He's our second fastest striker, arguably our most mobile outside the box (Hernandez is leagues above most when inside the box) and at 2.7 per match he averaged our 2nd highest shots per game behind Rooney.

On another note entirely, one area where he wasnt that brilliant last season was with aerial challenges. Today he did very well with that, winning 3 which is more than any of his team mates.
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Jav is a pure finisher and Berbatov scored 7 goals in 7 Premier League starts! Regardless, I am not really interested in comparing against an exiled striker and a guy struggling badly in his second season. I am looking at world class players in that position because that is what he is aspiring to.
 
The BBC didn't notice it. Most football fans didn't notice it. As far as they were concerned Welbeck was poor or average when he was doing a very important job for the team VERY fecking well.

Its almost impossible to keep Pirlo off the ball for 90 minutes, for 60 minutes he was either shadowing him or blocking a passing option and kept his contribution down to occasional flashes of brilliance. When he went off that stopped and Pirlo just took the game over.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Last year in the Premier League made an average of 24.2 passes per game which to contrast is about half as many as Wayne Rooney. Robin Van Persie made 27.2 passes per game, there is nothing wrong with being that limited in general play if you score and create as much as Van Persie does but Welbeck doesn't get anywhere near as many goals and assists as RVP.

That is the crux of my point, that he doesn't have enough end product to justify his limited participation in general play. It is quite easy to see with your own eyes that he doesn't get involved enough if you watch most of his games and the stats fully back up that perception.

Furthermore I don't feel that he is mobile enough on the pitch and this is indicative by the low amount of shots on goal that he gets for United, again about half as much as Wayne Rooney per game in the Premier League.
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One major difference is that Welbeck gets subbed off, unlike Rooney or RVP who'll almost never get subbed off unless injured or when they're coasting.
 
I think Danny had a good tournament. His stock's certainly risen, and with good reason. Should do him the world of good. Proud of him really, and I've always been a bit sceptical of the hype. If he was a good finisher he'd be a brilliant player already.
 
He's been one of the few positive things to come out the tournament for England. It was absolute madness bringing him off today.
 
Drainy said:
The BBC didn't notice it. Most football fans didn't notice it. As far as they were concerned Welbeck was poor or average when he was doing a very important job for the team VERY fecking well.

Its almost impossible to keep Pirlo off the ball for 90 minutes, for 60 minutes he was either shadowing him or blocking a passing option and kept his contribution down to occasional flashes of brilliance. When he went off that stopped and Pirlo just took the game over.
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Maybe it's just that I don't really interact with many fans that are casual viewers and spout a lot of nonsense. I don't watch games at the pub and all my mates used to or are still playing the game. In my office there's a mix of people that don't watch football and some former professional players that talk about football for a living so perhaps the consensus of the average Joe doesn't reach me ears.
People on here noticed it at least.
 
He seems destined to become a scorer of great goals, rather than a great goalscorer.

Had a good tournament though. Its all been a bonus really. Welbeck shouldn't be leading the line for England at this stage of his career, but it will do him the world of good. People forgot how young his is. There is no point comparing him to the worlds leading strikers.
 
Time is on his side. He would excel if England had a fit Wilshere And Cleverley behind him. I have good faith in the next generation of english players
 
I think he will only improve on this with age, but he needs to learn to get in to the game more. A lot of the time it can seem like he isn't in it at all. I feel he needs similar players around him who play the ball to feet to get the best out of him. Having said that he did well to win a lot of headers last night, but not much we can do with such poor tactics.
 
Bilbo said:
He seems destined to become a scorer of great goals, rather than a great goalscorer.

Had a good tournament though. Its all been a bonus really. Welbeck shouldn't be leading the line for England at this stage of his career, but it will do him the world of good. People forgot how young his is. There is no point comparing him to the worlds leading strikers.
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I disagree. 12 goals in his first full season makes me think he'll be getting 20+ in a year or two. If Cleverly can stay fit and stay in the team then that's even more likely. Those two just work so well together.
 
He'll be a superstar when he improves his finishing. Such a gifted player, totally unEnglish striker.
 
At Everton Rooney was also a scorer of great goals rather than a great goalscorer. Theres no need to think its beyond him. Plus I mean that was said about Forlan as well...
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
That is exactly the point that I have been trying to make about him in the past few weeks. He just doesn't do enough and I feel that when he plays for United too. In the next few years he has to do more because he doesn't score or create enough to justify his limited participation in general play. I am also unsure if he has the required attributes to significantly improve these areas, he is not quick or mobile enough and his finishing is mediocre but more crucially he just doesn't get enough shots on goal in the first place.
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Huh? Insane things to say.
 
Ekeke said:
At Everton Rooney was also a scorer of great goals rather than a great goalscorer. Theres no need to think its beyond him. Plus I mean that was said about Forlan as well...
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Meaning what exactly? Forlan was crap? One the few players who actually lit up the World Cup
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Meaning what exactly? Forlan was crap? One the few players who actually lit up the World Cup
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Wow.

Did you read the post? Do you remember Forlan at United? Do you think he was a great goalscorer there or a scorer of great goals?
 
Fal said:
I disagree. 12 goals in his first full season makes me think he'll be getting 20+ in a year or two. If Cleverly can stay fit and stay in the team then that's even more likely. Those two just work so well together.
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He played as a lead-the-line striker (principal goalscorer) in a team that scored 120 goals. 12 is not that impressive. Berbatov scored 9 and he hardly played.
 
Out of interest, what do we think Welbeck is worth? Not that for one minute I'd hope we ever even consider selling, but just interested what sort of price bracket he'd fall into ... sometimes with the homegrown lads, you don't even consider such things...

Around £20m?
 
99 red balloons said:
Out of interest, what do we think Welbeck is worth? Not that for one minute I'd hope we ever even consider selling, but just interested what sort of price bracket he'd fall into ... sometimes with the homegrown lads, you don't even consider such things...

Around £20m?
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70mil on the Carroll scale.

In reality around 20mil wouldnt be far off.
 
PatrickE239 said:
I don't think he is worth more than £15m. Don't think there is enough goals in his game to justify £20m for a striker
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He's one of the best young strikers in the world with a long time on his contract and coming off a good European tournament. He's now an England regular.

20 mil should be the minimum.
 
Probably about 15, but obviously it will rise as he improves. Needs to add more goals to his game and work on his touch, and get more involved.
 
PatrickE239 said:
I don't think he is worth more than £15m. Don't think there is enough goals in his game to justify £20m for a striker
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At an ABSOLUTE minimum. Fire sale, wanting to leave, last year of contract.

15-20m. If you were a manager you'd want at least 20 if not 25. He's shown some serious potential this year. In the grain that we haven't seen in a couple of years at least (at United).

No pressure on the lad and I am not going to say he has to score 20+ because that is a bullshit figure. I made a post in the newbies that highlighted the fact that not many strikers have scored over 20 league goals in a season. It was in retort to someone saying CArroll was a shoe in to score 20+ easily and even more so with Downing in the mix.

We're very lucky to have someone born and bred United in the thick of our first team and being able to contribute 10+ in the league at least is a massive boon. How many English youngsters/players have shit all over the league and scored 20+ so early in their career??

(genuine question, not trying to use it as a point or anything)
 
If we were trying to sign him now then the selling club would probably look for 20 million. I think that is fair in todays market
 
On a long contract at a club like Everton or Newcastle after that tournament and a season where he's proved he has a hell of a lot more to his game than goals, he's a quality footballer, if United, Chelsea or heaven forbid Liverpool (:lol:) went in for him it'd be upwards of £20m. Probably closer to £30m.
 
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