I don't really care that much about wasting our third best striker out of position. I care a lot about wasting our best player out of position.
Do you think Welbeck is a better football player than Mata?
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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I don't really care that much about wasting our third best striker out of position. I care a lot about wasting our best player out of position.
Do you think Welbeck is a better football player than Mata?
Something like this.
Mata is world class and I'd rather try and play him at #10 and build the side around that. That's just my opinion though.
But I do think there's a place for all 3 of them in the side, because we definitely benefit from Welbeck's pace and power.
We just need to find the right formation tactics to shoehorn them all in and it could work a treat.
They're all highly technical players who can adapt, constantly move and interchange. Welbeck could even pull off a Henry-esque wide forward role IMO.
Our best player is Wayne Rooney, and he, like Mata, can be brilliant in more than one position.
What I care about is United being the best and most entertaining they can be, and the best and most entertaining we've been in recent seasons is when we've played Welbeck and Rooney in tandem with top quality passers alongside them.
What I care about is United being the best and most entertaining they can be, and the best and most entertaining we've been in recent seasons is when we've played Welbeck and Rooney in tandem with top quality passers alongside them.
Mata has been a much better player than Rooney the last two seasons in this league but even if we agree that Rooney is our best player then he's a better player as a striker than a number 10 so we're shunting both Rooney and Mata out of position to accomodate Danny Welbeck in your plan.
This is just nonsense. We've been trying the two strikers with two passing wide players loads this season and it never works. We tried it at Liverpool and got hammered just last week. How many times do we have to play a combination of Rooney/Welbeck, Rooney/RVP, Rooney/Hernandez, Welbeck/RVP and Welbeck/Hernandez before you realise we need a ball playing midfielder in there for our team to actually work?
Christ, youre one of the Wane Rooney isnt a number 10 crowd aren't you. Just the several hundred brilliant matches there across his career....
Who gives a feck about those other partnerships which clearly don't work. I'm talking about a partnership which we know does work, and works brilliantly.
Who gives a feck about those other partnerships which clearly don't work. I'm talking about a partnership which we know does work, and works brilliantly.
How many brilliant games has he had this year, or last year? Rooney's best form for England and Man Utd is as a striker, it's his best position in his own mind and to anyone who actually watches him play.
Nevermind, you're right Danny Welbeck should be the focal point of our team and we should stick with the same strategy which has allowed us to be so successful this season. Carry on.
So, when presented with facts you revert to sarcasm and strawmanning. Another top quality promotion, there.
There's very little you can say to someone who thinks something so ridiculous.
Its ridiculous to think that Wayne Rooney, who for eight out of his nine seasons under the finest manager in the history of the game played as a number 10 whilst said manager had the best years of his career, is a world class number 10.
Right.
Right.
I'd like to see Welbeck getting more game time up top. He deserves it. I also want to see Mata/Kagawa in the hole.
Have you watched us play this season? The difference between Mata last night and Rooney there is night and day.
But that isn't even the main issue. The main issue is that for reasons no one in their right mind could ever understand you want to play Danny Welbeck in his best position instead of Juan Mata in his best position. Despite the fact that Mata has been very mediocre for us playing out wide, you think that doesn't matter and it's worth having Mata played in a role he clearly doesn't play well for us so we can play Danny Welbeck in his best position instead.
I don't think you answered this before, do you think Danny Welbeck is a better player than Juan Mata? I can only assume you do as you're willing to sacrifice Mata in order to get Welbeck in his best position.
Football isnt a jigsaw puzzle you utter cretin.
Do you think Louis Saha is a better finish than Ruud Van Nistelrooy? Do you think Owen Hargreaves is a better winger than Critiano Ronaldo?
Do you think Louis Saha is a better finish than Ruud Van Nistelrooy? Do you think Owen Hargreaves is a better winger than Critiano Ronaldo?
Blasphemy with the old 'England manager' mindset going on
So you think there's no difference at all in where a player plays? You don't think there's any significance in the fact that Mata had his best game for us last night when he played centrally? No significance that Sturridge is twice the player when he plays centrally to wide? Not of that means anything at all?
The really funny part is you don't think that. Because you've just argued that Welbeck can't play out wide and needs to play centrally. So clearly you don't believe this rubbish either. So why does it matter where Welbeck plays but doesn't matter where Mata plays?
You missed my point, which is hardly surprising with your reading age. Juan Mata isn't a jigsaw piece, there isn't one position he can play on a football field. For Chelsea and Spain he's played centrally and out wide and excelled in both. What matters is playing the right style of football.
For clarity, I believe that our best attacking play in recent seasons has come when we've played Welbeck up top with Rooney close behind him. They dovetail better than any pair of players we've had in years, and they are both prolific when played together. I have plentiful evidence of all that here and also in the memories of anyone who actually watched us play those 22 matches. I happen to think we should look to build on that going forward, especially in light of Danny Welbecks brilliant season as a striker this year, and mediocre one as a winger last year. And our utter lack of energy whenever we play Van Persie and guile when we play Valencia.
As such, I think our ideal front four (taking into account how often we rotate) should be as follows:
--- --- Welbeck
Nanii--Rooney Mata
With invariably attacking full backs and a strong pair of holding midfielders against the better opposition, and with Kagawa and Januzaj as the obvious like-for-like cover for the two wide players. It's the system I believe, with substantial historical evidence on my side, will provide us the best and most flexible attack we're currently capable of.
And no of course I don't think Danny Welbeck is a better footballer than Juan Mata, because football isn't top trumps either.
As such, I think our ideal front four (taking into account how often we rotate) should be as follows:
--- --- Welbeck
Nanii--Rooney Mata
With invariably attacking full backs and a strong pair of holding midfielders against the better opposition, and with Kagawa and Januzaj as the obvious like-for-like cover for the two wide players. It's the system I believe, with substantial historical evidence on my side, will provide us the best and most flexible attack we're currently capable of.
And no of course I don't think Danny Welbeck is a better footballer than Juan Mata, because football isn't top trumps either.
Our team suffers from a lack of pace pretty much all over the pitch. As good as players like Mata and Kagawa are with the ball at their feet we also need players with genuine pace to create space for them to work in.
It's all well and good passing it around a team like West Ham, but against a team like Liverpool who have genuine mobility around their side our team is far too easily pressed all over the pitch. Welbeck offers the pace and movement to stretch teams, and is usually a reliable out ball for players caught in possession- as well as, believe it or not, providing a goal threat.
It's all well and good passing it around a team like West Ham, but against a team like Liverpool who have genuine mobility around their side our team is far too easily pressed all over the pitch. Welbeck offers the pace and movement to stretch teams, and is usually a reliable out ball for players caught in possession- as well as, believe it or not, providing a goal threat.
Don't think Mata's ever really excelled for Spain to be honest, not in tournaments anyway.
Style of football matters, but there's still a massive difference in the skill set needed depending on where on the field you're receiving the ball.
As a winger you need pace, you need to track back, you need to be able to carry the ball more and you're far less often in a position where you're receiving the ball with the killer pass only a few touches away.
As a number 10 you don't need pace anywhere near as much, you're always in the area most likely to be able to pick out a killer pass and you don't need to be dragged out of position by tracking back.
There's a huge difference between the two role and style of play can bridge that gap a bit but there's still a big difference in any side.
You look at any of the good playmakers in football Iniesta, Silva, Zidane, Ozil, Riquelme and they've all played from a wide role many times but to a man they're all far more effective when they're central and in the area of the pitch where they're constantly receiving the ball in a position to do the most damage. It makes a big, big difference.
One thing I hope we can all agree on is that RVP and Mata in the same side is horrific. I loudly shouted something about it being "like having two sodding Berbatovs" the other week.
Mata can play put wide and has done for majority of his career. I'd also like to know the difference in Mata's average position against West Ham and some of the other games where he played 'wide'. Minimal difference I should think.
Welbeck deserves to play up top with his form this season especially when Rooney and RVP were missing.
It's not so much comparing his average position, it's his starting position that makes the difference. He is defending centrally and is able to find his spots early rather than provide an option out wide then drift inside. We broke far quicker with Mata through the middle.
And when was his best season in a United shirt? 09/10, when he was used as a striker. Fergie always liked using 2 strikers, that's why Rooney played deeper. He's a world class player either way, he's just inconsistent when playing behind the striker. Mata behind the striker is by far his best position and gets us ticking. It's not even a contest.
And Welbeck, as good as he is, isn't a starter when everybody is fit. He's our 3rd best striker at very best, and then for the 3 positions behind there are 4 players who would be picked before him if they were on form. Nani, Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj are all better in those positions and have shown more over the years. Welbeck can become an important player for us, but he isn't anywhere close to that yet. Mata is the type of player we need to build our team around, Rooney up top, and then have Januzaj on the wing long term. That leaves 1 other position for somebody to cement, the other winger.
Mata is class either way, but we are far better balanced with Mata behind Rooney then if we put him on the wing and have him drift in. It condenses the middle and there's no need to have everybody always drifting in and no real pace breaking through.
more like a second striker really.
What makes you say that?
He's stretching them at the minute. Good stuff so far.
Slipmeister 3000.
Few times he's done it, he's been isolated and had to check back.
He is our best attacking player, and probably our most dangerous anyway. I just hate that he runs back chasing their plauers while Fellaini easily jogs back watching that.
He almost cut Zabaleta in two.
The only player looking remotely dangerous.
If only he wasn't so damn clumsy in decisive areas.
If only he wasn't so damn clumsy in decisive areas.
That's the thing. I think he's made great runs, and his link up has been good. But he still does his bambi on ice impression
Lennon mark 2? FFS
Where exactly was he clumsy? He lost the ball in run when he fouled Zabaleta, that's all.
An hour out wide, makes a few okay runs and draws a few fouls.
Fifteen minutes up front, forces the only two saves Hart has to make all night.
It's not fecking rocket science, he's a centre forward.
Fifteen minutes up front, forces the only two saves Hart has to make all night.
It's not fecking rocket science, he's a centre forward.
This.
Looked like our only player that caused them any problems but he was subbed off before Mata. Weird.
If he just had a bit more sharpness/thought to his game then he could be a big asset from us running from wide. Ideally you want him through the middle but we can't do that without pushing Mata wide and I'd prefer him centrally. But the problem with him is that when he gets going he can lose the ball or can't find that end product. Problem is he's the only player with pace we have who will run inside. Young is too safe and Nani's been out too long. He's worth the risk though, as although he might not create/get a shot off he can commit players to making a challenge/moving out of position and that can lead to a chance.
I couldn't see the game live tonight but heard something about him testing Hart with a (back)flick similar to the one he scored for England (the winning goal which for some reason seems to have been forgotten by all England pundits)? If so, then in which minute did this happen please?
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