Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.
noodlehair said:
Welbeck plays best by playing off or linking with other players so he's not really suited to being a lone front man anyway. At least not until he's a bit more sturdy on the ball.

People seem to keep thinking he'll develop into Drogba, but what Drogba or someone like Lukaku (or even Sturridge) has, which Welbeck doesn't, is that they're selfish. Welbeck is a different type of player which is why you can get away with playing him off the wing or next to another front man and still benefit, while Chelsea have to keep loaning Lukaku out to other clubs. Not that this is a slight on Lukaku because I think he's excellent, but he really is a typical lone front man style striker, like Drogba. Welbeck is anything but.
Click to expand...

Welbeck's finishing is not his only deficiency in attacking areas though. Even his 'linking' isn't good enough in terms of final ball. I can recall a few occasions where he has had the ball in a 2 on 1 situation and he fails to release the ball to his unmarked teammate. He's a worker, admittedly with technical ability, but cannot play a final pass or finish. When it's all stripped away, he is in effect playing a Heskey role for us, chasing and pressing from the front and flicking it on to his partner. He doesn't threaten the goal with a strike or pass though.
 
So now we're using the record of one of the greatest goal scorers in modern football as a stick to beat Welbeck with? Fantastic.

Its almost like half of you want him to fail. Probably the same lot that used to 'hate' Fletcher and Evans.
 
Sam said:
So now we're using the record of one of the greatest goal scorers in modern football as a stick to beat Welbeck with? Fantastic.

Its almost like half of you want him to fail. Probably the same lot that used to 'hate' Fletcher and Evans.
Click to expand...

No United fan wants a United player to fail, at least I hope so. But Welbeck really needs to improve. Sturridge has, but it has taken him being moved centrally to achieve that. Welbeck has similar level of talent but his finishing really lets him down, which males the manager even more hesitant to give him a chance down the middle. And forget comparisons with Ruud. One is one of the best strikers to have played for United, another is a man who has it all to prove.
 
Bestie07 said:
No United fan wants a United player to fail, at least I hope so. But Welbeck really needs to improve. Sturridge has, but it has taken him being moved centrally to achieve that. Welbeck has similar level of talent but his finishing really lets him down, which males the manager even more hesitant to give him a chance down the middle. And forget comparisons with Ruud. One is one of the best strikers to have played for United, another is a man who has it all to prove.
Click to expand...

I genuinely think that may not be the case anymore. Fans have changed in the last 20 years.
 
But why would any Utd fan want a Utd player to fail? What would be their agenda?

Assuming players with Latin sounding names are better is one thing, wanting someone to fail is quite another. I'm sure everyone here would be delighted if Welbeck emerged as the hottest striker in world football. It'd be very odd if someone had a problem with that.
 
Sam said:
So now we're using the record of one of the greatest goal scorers in modern football as a stick to beat Welbeck with? Fantastic.

Its almost like half of you want him to fail. Probably the same lot that used to 'hate' Fletcher and Evans.
Click to expand...

Good post. Agree whole heartedly.
 
Call me a nutter but I'd like to point out that Danny is turning 23 (tomorrow!) - he isn't a finished product by any stretch. It's utter stupidity to give up on him now. The lad gets himself into goal scoring positions too often for him not to become a regular goal scorer before too long. Again, he is 23 years old. We would be insane not to keep him on our books - and for the time being he can be used out wide, not like our regular wide men are making anyone drool at the moment.

Regarding his status as a local lad: No, we shouldn't give him chances merely because he's a local lad. We aren't either. He's earned his chances through performing well at the highest level - he was Man of the Match for us against Real Madrid in the CL last season, for feck's sake.

As for the fans - well, the day a local lad is treated just as any fecker bought from wherever is the day it's time to just chuck it the feck in: Of course he is special to us, of course it's more exciting to see a local lad make it - of course we invest more emotion and patience and whatnot in a local lad.
 
Mainoldo said:
Why would we want Welbeck to fail i'm sure we all wish he ends up in the same Echelon as Cole, RVN, Hughes etc..
Click to expand...

That's the same question I would ask. Why would any United fan want him to fail. But after reading some of the comments in here and, god forbid, in the match day thread, it certainly seems like that's exactly what some want. The scape goating and abuse just takes the piss really. I remember Fletcher having to go through the same thing.
 
Kag said:
No, he displaced both Hernandez and Berbatov due to some extremely good hold up play, allowing the team to play better as a result. The succeeding Summer, Robin Van Persie was available and we bought him. Since, Welbeck has exclusively play out on the left as some kind of reliable utility forward. Seldom has he played as a striker. The sheer lengths people will go to in attempts to validate their shitty posts is amusing.
Click to expand...

He wasn't playing extremely well at the time. Hernandez was scoring goals. Welbeck supported a bit. The funny thing is that the same people that praise Welbeck were also laughing at Kuyt. They basically do the same stuff except Kuyt provided more goals.
He's bad at scoring, he's an average passer and he can't cross. He's missing some key attributes to make it here. That's a fact. Unless he get's much better he will be reduced to a lesser and lesser squad role with time. There's just so much better players out there in his position.
 
simonhch said:
That's the same question I would ask. Why would any United fan want him to fail. But after reading some of the comments in here and, god forbid, in the match day thread, it certainly seems like that's exactly what some want. The scape goating and abuse just takes the piss really. I remember Fletcher having to go through the same thing.
Click to expand...


I doubt that any genuine United fan would want him to fail, no matter how low they rate him. The match day threads are full of WUM's that only log on to post absolute bile and then piss off, so I'd hardly go picking posts from out of there.
 
Snow said:
He wasn't playing extremely well at the time. Hernandez was scoring goals. Welbeck supported a bit. The funny thing is that the same people that praise Welbeck were also laughing at Kuyt. They basically do the same stuff except Kuyt provided more goals.
He's bad at scoring, he's an average passer and he can't cross. He's missing some key attributes to make it here. That's a fact. Unless he get's much better he will be reduced to a lesser and lesser squad role with time. There's just so much better players out there in his position.
Click to expand...

Well this is the point where I can't even have this discussion with you. If you couldn't see the kind of relationship Rooney and Welbeck were building, which was exhibited to great effect during the 4-4 against Everton then there's no way we can agree. Hernandez always scores. However, Welbeck was generally Rooney's strike partner and his arrival that season was one full of promise, allowing us to play some attractive stuff, at times. Hernandez struggled with his all round game, hence was demoted in favour of Welbeck. Berbatov, a better striker than both, was demoted for similar reasons. Welbeck was a better fit. I'm not going into the rest of your post as I can't be arsed to argue about Welbeck's attributes.

My issue was with your point that he "came up short" when in competition with Hernandez. He didn't. The only season they directly competed for a spot infront of Rooney, Welbeck was better for the reasons I've outlined. Everyone was happy with his development. The Euro's topped off a great year for him. Hernandez didn't and still doesn't play regularly because of his own weaknesses. Both were bumped down the pecking order when Van Persie arrived and rightly so.
 
Sam said:
So now we're using the record of one of the greatest goal scorers in modern football as a stick to beat Welbeck with? Fantastic.

Its almost like half of you want him to fail. Probably the same lot that used to 'hate' Fletcher and Evans.
Click to expand...

I thought the person was using him as a comparison to not do so but it got turned around on him.
 
Kag said:
Well this is the point where I can't even have this discussion with you. If you couldn't see the kind of relationship Rooney and Welbeck were building, which was exhibited to great effect during the 4-4 against Everton then there's no way we can agree. Hernandez always scores. However, Welbeck was generally Rooney's strike partner and his arrival that season was one full of promise, allowing us to play some attractive stuff, at times. Hernandez struggled with his all round game, hence was demoted in favour of Welbeck. Berbatov, a better striker than both, was demoted for similar reasons. Welbeck was a better fit. I'm not going into the rest of your post as I can't be arsed to argue about Welbeck's attributes.

My issue was with your point that he "came up short" when in competition with Hernandez. He didn't. The only season they directly competed for a spot infront of Rooney, Welbeck was better for the reasons I've outlined. Everyone was happy with his development. The Euro's topped off a great year for him. Hernandez didn't and still doesn't play regularly because of his own weaknesses. Both were bumped down the pecking order when Van Persie arrived and rightly so.
Click to expand...
He came up short in the delivery. That is, he got all this playing time and didn't do very much with it. It was in response to someone saying that him and Cleverley haven't gotten proper chances yet in their favorite position. Like you said, after van Persie came here he got shifted out left. He doesn't get the nod ahead of Hernandez as a striker anymore.

You can't be arsed to argue about his attributes? That's kind of the whole point of this thread isn't it?

Everyone, not everyone actually, were happy with him for what he was doing as a 20 year old. People were saying the same things they are saying now about his goal scoring ability. That's the problem right now. First it was "he's got great potential and is playing well. His finishing will get better with time". Since then the finishing hasn't improved the slightest and that's why many people are changing their tune. It's not something you easily improve and with no progress in two years after all this playing time you have the right to be skeptical about his future prowess in the box. If he doesn't improve in this area or gets better at creating chances for others then he won't be more than a different version of Peter Crouch. Crouchy has a lot of caps and a lot of goals for England but he really was never seen as a key figure and has never played at the top despite all the money spent on him.
 
Giggsforever said:
The season Ruud was 22 he scored 31 goals in 34 matches (second highest in Europe) and a hat trick in the CL. He was voted as the Dutch player of the year. At 23 he added 29 more goals.

Welbeck is 23 tomorrow.
Click to expand...


Honestly can't be fecked with the football forum anymore, its a complete joke. Enjoy slagging off our own players while completely missing the point of posters looking to defend them in order to win favour with other brain dead idiots.
 
Snow said:
He came up short in the delivery. That is, he got all this playing time and didn't do very much with it. It was in response to someone saying that him and Cleverley haven't gotten proper chances yet in their favorite position. Like you said, after van Persie came here he got shifted out left. He doesn't get the nod ahead of Hernandez as a striker anymore.

You can't be arsed to argue about his attributes? That's kind of the whole point of this thread isn't it?

Everyone, not everyone actually, were happy with him for what he was doing as a 20 year old. People were saying the same things they are saying now about his goal scoring ability. That's the problem right now. First it was "he's got great potential and is playing well. His finishing will get better with time". Since then the finishing hasn't improved the slightest and that's why many people are changing their tune. It's not something you easily improve and with no progress in two years after all this playing time you have the right to be skeptical about his future prowess in the box. If he doesn't improve in this area or gets better at creating chances for others then he won't be more than a different version of Peter Crouch. Crouchy has a lot of caps and a lot of goals for England but he really was never seen as a key figure and has never played at the top despite all the money spent on him.
Click to expand...

You see, again, this is where I'm struggling with you. "He didn't do very much with the playing time." What? At the age of 20, he displaced both Hernandez and Berbatov at one of biggest clubs in Europe, was generally first choice, played some quality, confident stuff, bagged a reasonable 12 goals and went to the Euro's and come away with a very high stock and reputation. What more did you want?

What happened then is that one of the best strikers on the planet was available, we bought him, and Welbeck spent the whole of last season out on the wing. In turn, he didn't get to build on anything from the season before, nor was he getting all of the confidence-building tap ins he would have been rewarded had he stayed up top. Now, buying Van Persie has never been an issue with me. However, a little bit of fairness is required when assessing a player that has stagnated as a striker for the very reasons the majority of people he believed he would in the first place.

As for the attributes, yep, I can't be arsed. I should have written my Welbeck argument on a Word document a while ago as I end up repeating myself in every instance. I'm like that with a fair few of our players. I rate him very highly and believe he has all the raw qualities needed to make for a great striker. Unfortunately, I don't think he can work on these qualities in the way he needs to by playing left wing for United. For his personal development, he'd be better off elsewhere. However, from a United standpoint, I'm more than happy with his squad role right now. I argued it last week, but he's a manager's dream of a squad player. If he's happy being that at United then it's fine by me.
 
Dante said:
All he did was miss two difficult chances, you spackers.
Click to expand...

It's not only the last game.

Can you honestly say, having watched him play over the last couple seasons, that you feel confident that he'll score if he's been put through on goal? Hand on heart, as much as I do appreciate he's homegrown and whatnot, I still feel he'll miss most of the time.
 
Dante said:
All he did was miss two difficult chances, you spackers.
Click to expand...

Wasn't it just the one? But it wasn't that tough of a chance in all honesty. He should have put it away, or at the very least, hit the target. All too often whenever he has a chance to either get an assist or score a goal, no matter how hard/easy the chance, most of the time he just slips over and messes up the chance, or he picks the wrong option, or he mishits it. It's becoming a routine for him and 9 times out of 10, if Welbeck is on a break away through on goal, I'd expect him to miss. He's an awful finisher for a striker.

I really want him to succeed but I can't see him ever becoming an important player here, because his lack of a strikers instinct. He's a good player and has plenty of other very good attributes, but I'm honestly not sure what is his best position. He lacks the finishing, composure, or movement to become a top class striker, and he lacks the dribbling, crossing or a wingers mind I guess to become a top class winger here at United. It's like he's one of those 'nearly' players, close to having a potential to be a top class player but lacking 1 or 2 vital skills needed, and I fear it'll hold him back from ever becoming a permanent fixture in any United team. Great squad option to have, but long term will he settle for that?
 
Goals to shots this season:

RVP 21%
Rooney 17%
Welbeck 18%
Hernandez 20%

Also, given the position Welbeck plays (and the way he plays it), he rarely gets the tap in chances that others do. He's usually the one doing the running that make those chances in the first place.

Mark Hughes wasn't a bad player despite not being a prolific scorer. And Tevez at United probably offered less than Welbeck too.
 
People comparing Welbeck to Ruud, Sturridge and all kinds but they didn't play out wide like Danny has now under TWO managers. Even Hodgson is playing him there now. Its tough for Welbeck, even tougher than it is for Kagawa due to our options up front but lets judge his goals and finishing when he gets a good run out up there, which is isn't.

I reckon he plays better, with more enthusiasm for England, more nice moments but he always puts in a shift for us and does something or note. Scoring goals is not really his job right now.
 
Good post, Dante.

I've got every Welbeck miss this season saved on my hard drive. Shall I upload them? I remember simple chances vs. Liverpool and Swansea.
 
Dante said:
Goals to shots this season:

RVP 21%
Rooney 17%
Welbeck 18%
Hernandez 20%

Also, given the position Welbeck plays (and the way he plays it), he rarely gets the tap in chances that others do. He's usually the one doing the running that make those chances in the first place.

Mark Hughes wasn't a bad player despite not being a prolific scorer. And Tevez at United probably offered less than Welbeck too.
Click to expand...


Tevez scored 19 in his first season and 15 in his second. Both totals in excess of Welbeck's career best of 12.

Until Danny starts to regularly take his chances, he's going to be criticised. He shouldn't get a free pass when he's missing chances, irrespective of his starting position.
 
People have got to stop comparing Welbeck with players who only ever play/played up front in terms of goals!! He barely ever starts a game up front for goodness sake.

It's lucky he's a loyal local lad, as otherwise he might well think he needs to go elsewhere to develop, actually play where he wants to.

Having said that, I still think that effort when 2-1 up was criminal, not to even hit the target.
 
I'm glad he's back. He will be useful in the next run of games. Hopefully he stays fit. The striker tag is one that harms him because he gets judged as a striker despite rarely playing as one for United. For England he scores fairly frequently. We all know strikers are largely judged on goals but he's playing on the wing for the most part and it's unsurprising he was rusty yesterday given that he's just returned from a injury.
 
How many games has he played as a striker? I think he's only played one game as a striker (against Manchester City). More importantly, he has 3 goals in 5 starts for us, while playing "out of position".
 
Welbeck was hopelessly overrated by your lot previously and is now getting underrated.

Don't see him ever being good enough to be first choice (if he is, it's a first choice a club of your stature should want to improve on) but he'll grow a player you'd always want to have as 3rd choice right behind the top dogs in the pecking order and often relied on.
 
Feed Me said:
Tevez scored 19 in his first season and 15 in his second. Both totals in excess of Welbeck's career best of 12.

Until Danny starts to regularly take his chances, he's going to be criticised. He shouldn't get a free pass when he's missing chances, irrespective of his starting position.
Click to expand...
Yep. It's not just about the number of goals. He just looks a bit frightened when he enters the box.
 
He was in a strikers position and he fluffed it. Its a regular accurance and really annoying for a player of his qualities. It resembled his miss against Chelsea and when it comes done to it this is what costs you the league. I wouldn't mind if he hit the target but there's no excuse for that finish on Sunday.
 
I thought a few days after the fact, the muppetry would have calmed down and people would be talking a bit more sense in here, what the fcuk was I thinking?
 
Fiskey said:
Honestly can't be fecked with the football forum anymore, its a complete joke. Enjoy slagging off our own players while completely missing the point of posters looking to defend them in order to win favour with other brain dead idiots.
Click to expand...

You used RVN as a comparison and now you're doing a runner when presented with the findings? Bizarre.
 
Rowem said:
It's not logical but it's the case. In fact, it's harmless in comparison to other forms of the same thing. People often self-sabotage and/or seek failure. The extreme example is this.
Click to expand...

So the people in here slagging off Welbeck stand accused of Self Defeating Personality Disorder? And that is a better explanation than they just dont rate him very highly because....?

Honestly, way to overcomplicate things people. OK so maybe there are a few unhinged people on here who want him to fail (not the rest of the team, mind: just Welbeck, he has a very special place in peoples' hearts). For most other people the debate is about whether he is good enough for United or not.

BTW, for the avoidance of doubt, I think he is plenty good enough. I just think it is a bit silly the way people who criticise a player end up being accused of wanting them to fail.
 
Adebesi said:
So the people in here slagging off Welbeck stand accused of Self Defeating Personality Disorder?.
Click to expand...


Sigh. Stopped reading here.

I made a serious reply to your post and you can't even be courteous enough to do the same.

That is clearly NOT what I'm saying, and I find it bizarre that you have interpreted it that way.

What you have done here is absolute classic straw man. Well done.
 
Thanks. And I didnt mean to be discourteous, Im simply saying that the link you sent is in my opinion completely irrelevant to the question that I was originally referring to, which is whether people want Welbeck to fail at United. Which I would say, with a few possible exceptions, people dont.
 
Adebesi said:
Thanks. And I didnt mean to be discourteous, Im simply saying that the link you sent is in my opinion completely irrelevant to the question that I was originally referring to, which is whether people want Welbeck to fail at United. Which I would say, with a few possible exceptions, people dont.
Click to expand...


My point is that people sometimes subconsciously seek failure and take gratification from misfortune. In extremes people do this with important, life-debilitating things, so I'm sure it's even more common with trivial matters such as willing against a sports team or individual. I doubt anyone is aware/acknowledging of the fact they think that way. I admit it's a fairly obscure comparison, but it's something I came across recently and see a connection.
 
If it was a strange, subconscious urge to see us fail as a team, or someone feeling depressed after we won the league or the CL or something, I would get it. But for people to single out a specific player, while otherwise supporting the team and delighting in its victories? It doesnt add up, for me. There would have to be another reason why people selected a certain individual.

Incidentally, I know someone who supports a lower league side, who what you are saying does apply to to some extent. He would argue he is a much "better" fan that I am: he goes to games way more than I do, he points out that following a PL team is easy and requires very little investment, you just watch the televised games and MOTD every week, not like shlepping it half way across the country to see your team beaten in some grim little town somewhere. And yet he is clearly far more ambivalent about his team succeeding that I am. Partly because I think he does have an aversion to the PL, but also because I think he has spent so long resenting successful sides that if his team ever became one (relatively speaking) it would trigger something of an identity crisis for him.

So yes, I think there is something in what you are saying, in terms of it being observable in football. Not sure I see it in this situation though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.