Its just so true. I honestly think the standard of this forum has gone to shit, its like the newbies.
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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Its just so true. I honestly think the standard of this forum has gone to shit, its like the newbies.
Actually look at RVP's for that matter, people in this thread are genuinely thick, its like they are unable to look at football with any context whatsoever.
Wait, are you saying football fans are biased and show favoritism towards players who play for their own team? Well, stop the press!
Coming back from an injury is a completely valid excuse for a player who might be off form, anyone who thinks differently has quite obviously never played any sort of sport in their life. As indeed is being young.
That's not the worst outcome for Danny though, to be fair. Such players, ideally, are the type we should be trying to get from our academy, as opposed to spending money on average players. We may as well keep our own to fill the one or two 'average player' spots we will need.
Wait, are you saying football fans are biased and show favoritism towards players who play for their own team? Well, stop the press!
Coming back from an injury is a completely valid excuse for a player who might be off form, anyone who thinks differently has quite obviously never played any sort of sport in their life. As indeed is being young.
Well that may be true, but that doesn't serve as the best foundation to establish the 'truth' in a debate, or assessing players, which was my point.
As for the coming back from injury, or being young bit, there will always be countless other examples of players in similar circumstances that simply do better.
The fact is, in the list of variables that I gave in the original post you quoted, there is always likely to be something not ideal. The fact of the matter is, the players who are sent out are expected to deliver. We can constantly make excuses for under-performance, but the fact is, expectations have not been met. And there will always be something not right.
Rooney stood up yesterday. In theory, he could be forgiven for not doing so, as someone may turn around and say 'he plays better with RVP' or something. Or he's just come off internationals. Always something. The fact is, some players deliver, and some don't. Of course this isn't just related to Danny now, more of a general point.
I don't think he is lacking instinct, he got in three very good goalscoring positions yesterday in just around 20 minutes:
- after Giggs' first pass, his movemant was excellent, but defender did good, altough I think if he wasn't just came back after long injury Welbeck would outpace him
- THE chance where he fired it above the crossbar,
- and he was in very good position when Rooney tried to pass it to him instead of shooting;
That's probably more than Hernandez did in 70 minutes before(and we all know how good his goal instinct is), it's just his finishing that's letting him down. He is poor finisher and lacks concentration in the box, but I think his natrual instinct is just fine.
Fighting a losing battle, I think Fiskey. Some real special Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime posting in here.
The lad wasn't bought in from Mexico and doesn't have a quirky nickname - will always be 'shite' to some on here.
It's not that, it's that he's a Manchester United striker who has scored 5 goals in his last 50 odd games.
Without insulting you like you have done so to me, do you believe that Welbeck has a good goalscoring record in the past 2 seasons, yes or no? Or are you just going to insult me and pretend you have a vastly superior footballing knowledge to most of us.
And I have checked RvP's and RvN's record just for you, and I won't bother reading the stats because they don't work in your favour at all.
Edit: Changed my mind, I suppose I will. In RvP's first 3 seasons in the Premier league, he scored 21 in 70, so just under 0.25 goals a game, granted it's not great, but he gradually scored more goals as he adapted to the league, then went on to hit 108 in 142, around 0.75 goals per game, so he improved dramatically afterwards. Welbeck's is 19 in 98 by the way, so just under .2 a game.
Now, to compare him to RvN as you so keenly asked me to: This is a little different. See, Ruud actually scored 31 goals in 34 games at the same age Welbeck is at, which was the 2nd highest in Europe at the time. He then scored 29 goals the following season, and injured himself badly before moving to United, but still went on to be a goalscoring machine.
What you don't get is I think Welbeck is a great footballer: he's lightning quick, has a good footballing brain outside of the box and his control can be excellent. But he's supposed to be a striker, and hasn't scored many in recent times. What use is it to us if someone wants to prove they want to be at the top but can't do their single most important duty?
The majority of those games he's been played out wide. He brings more to the team than goals.
Granted, his strike-rate right now isn't overly impressive but given time and played centrally, on a regular basis, I'd expect that to improve dramatically.
Good power and nearly on target is far better than some of the shots we get from him where it just trickles to the keeper or goes well wide
So you have a soft spot for him as you did with Ole, Livvie?
If Welbeck had the same natural talent as O'Shea then I'd agree. He would be a good squad/backup player, nothing more. However if anyone ever wants to see him realise his potential and be anything other than a backup player then he needs game time in his preferred position.
Barcelona send their talented player's out on loan (or sell with buyback clauses), even when they can make some contribution to the first team, for the greater good. Welbeck is always going to be a pretty irrelevant fish in a big pond, unless he has a season or 2 of consistent first team Football elsewhere. He certainly isn't going to improve his finishing and levels of confidence from the bench.
Its actually mad. ive now learned that sidefooted half volley hit at full pace is now "an easy chance". This site is on a downward spiral thats for sure.
Can't really read that, basically 20 in 71 for Den Bosch, 16 in 36 for Heerenveen.
I'm only using these two as a comparison as they have become at different times the leading goal scoring striker in the Premier League, and one of the best in the world at goal scoring. I'm not sure anyone expects that from Welbeck, I'm just using these two as an example that young strikers take time to develop, Welbeck turns 23 tomorrow, give him time. Even when he's not scoring for us he puts in an incredible shift and links play very well, for me he's done more on the wings than Young or Nani in the last couple of seasons and yet people want him sold?
He's a homegrown player who supports the club, clearly does everything he can to turn himself into a better player, follows managers instructions to the letter and yet we have people on here who have had enough. How can we ask for loyalty from players when we don't even give our own a fair shot that they have proven they deserve? Its why I get angry about it.
It's up to Welbeck to prove he is better than that I suppose. He, in my view, has gotten hsi fair share of preferential treatment with us. Under Fergie, he seemed to find a way into the starting XI almost every week. He returned from loan to immediately remove a previously very impressive Hernandez from the starting line-up, and has been given a very fair crack so far.
One thing he and Cleverley cannot say, in my view, is that they have not been given a decent crack at establishing themselves here.
Wasn't RVN a defender or midfielder or something in his early career?
I don't think it's about appearances, it's about appearances in a preferred position. Cleverley as a more attacking midfielder with much more freedom for Watford and Wigan looked a far superior player. Likewise Welbeck made his name playing up front for Sunderland.
It depends what our plans for these homegrown player's are though. If the manager has them down as mediocre backup/squad player's then fair enough, they will fulfill this role well. Just as O'Shea, Brown etc have fulfilled it in the past.
He LITERALLY has though.
I know he has. But then nobody would have been baffled as to why he scored if it ended up in the net. If you are fit enough to walk onto the pitch, then you can be held accountable for what you do out there I think. All these things like 'he is playing with an injury' etc. If a player is injured, and cannot play, then fair enough. If he can play, then I imagine his manager sent him out with an expectation of him.
This is a general point as opposed to just Danny.
I don't think it is a default situation that 'homegrown = squad player'. It is down to the individual. We have had players come through of course and be first-team regulars (1992). It may just be that Cleverley and Welbeck are not of that level.
And I don't recall Cleverley playing off the front for Wigan to be honest, and also, when he plays in central midfield for us, I see a complete coward in terms of attacking initiative, so I struggle to see that he is a natural attacking midfielder.
I think there is a reason why we haven't seen a home grown attacking player cement a place in our first team in 20 years and a centre forward in 30 years. The competition in these area's is much higher; you need someone who is a ready made first team starter. Exceptional talents obviously make it regardless and hopefully the likes of Januzaj will fall into that category, but player's like Welbeck and Cleverley seem to show lots of initial promise, but a lack of (or sporadic) first team opportunities in their preferred position lead to stagnation and eventually just filling a lesser role.
Maybe Cleverley and Welbeck were never going to be great and only ever had the talent to fill this role. But when they were both playing consistent Football they both looked destined for better.
Double post.
There's no lack of opportunities. They've been schooled in one of the best football academies their whole life. They would play more if they were better. If Welbeck actually was a good striker then he would play as a striker. He was used a lot ahead of Hernandez for a while and came up short. He's just way too bad of a finisher. Compare that single attribute to Ruud. There's a standard comparison of an average one (at best) and a world class one.
Welbeck's problem is that he doesn't really fit any position. Not for a top team at least. He reminds me of all those strikers through the years that have managed to be professional football players in a top league without scoring goals. Players like Roque Santa Cruz, Emile Heskey, Peter Crouch, Carlton Cole etc. All these years in the PL, all played with their national team. None of them had a goal scoring record fit to rival Defoe or Bent. Most of them only managed one good season. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a target man. I just think he's as effective as those I mentioned at the moment and I'm not sure how much more effective he'll be in the future without massively improving his finishing and shooting.
No, he displaced both Hernandez and Berbatov due to some extremely good hold up play, allowing the team to play better as a result. The succeeding Summer, Robin Van Persie was available and we bought him. Since, Welbeck has exclusively play out on the left as some kind of reliable utility forward. Seldom has he played as a striker. The sheer lengths people will go to in attempts to validate their shitty posts is amusing.
Yea that's fair.
Also, as you referenced Januzaj, he is a good example. It's simply about being good enough. As I said in another thread, we perhaps make too many excuses for our players. In a few years when Adnan is one of the best 10s around, it will be no excuse that he is playing out wide now. Obviously Messi is an extreme, but similarly, he played wide right early on, and looked good not because his best position is right wing, but because he is very good. Welbeck should do better in attacking situations, whether he is wide or not.
When he gets to the edge of the box, he will play the wrong pass, not play the pass at all, or scuff his shot. His position is not a factor here. The idea is that he gets goals from a wide area before being moved in field. Not that he needs to move in field to get goals. Top attackers are often brought into the team in wide areas before they are ready to move in field. Danny isn't doing enough from the left to earn a move into the middle. Players like Henry or Sturridge got goals from wide and then got their chance centrally. Welbeck is being played wide to be able to show he can get goals without the burden of carrying the weight of the teams scoring expectations. If he was getting 15 from wide, he'll show he can handle being a 9 for us.
Oh, I totally agree. I was one of the people saying given the chances Welbeck had last season, he should have comfortably been in double figures.
My point is that he isn't good enough to play up front and is only a decent option on the left at the moment. Would he be good enough with 2-3 seasons consistently playing at a mid table club? I look at the likes of Lukaku and think that even though Chelsea are hurting themselves to some degree by sending him off on loan, next season with 2 solid back to back seasons as a first team player he will be much closer to the finished package than playing sporadically at Chelsea and often warming their bench.
Lukaku will no doubt be twice the player Welbeck will be. Whether that is down to sheer talent or the nurturing of said talent is a matter for debate.
Lukaku will be a better goal scorer but I'd be amazed if he's a better player than Danny Welbeck. He's awful with the ball.
I knew it would happen on here once Fergie left. I just thought it'd be a gradual descent further into the madness, rather than like watching someone go at a barely stable card pyramid with a hammer.
I thought Welbeck was one of the few plus points from the game. Him and Giggs were certainly brighter than anyone in the starting line up, barring maybe Rooney, who also clowned up an open goal and should have been sent off.
Lukaku is quite young, and is still learning. I think a striker who actually gets goals and is lethal in front of goal is what you want in the first place. Lukaku is doing well but he has a way to go yet. Danny while having all the natural talent is not a natural goal scorer, you don't need to be one to be prolific. You can learn how to be a great/good finisher. Danny just doesn't seem confident infront of goal, it is worrying. I mean he hasn't played upfront but he has played a lot of football, wingers do score goals. He is still too clumsy and thinks to much in the box.
I'm assuming he needs to play upfront more if he is ever going to realise his potential. Sadly I don't think that can happen here.
Yes Rooney missed the best and easiest chance. Welbeck missed a more difficult one. The issue is that welbeck will continue to frequently miss even easier chances while Rooney won't.
Welbeck plays best by playing off or linking with other players so he's not really suited to being a lone front man anyway. At least not until he's a bit more sturdy on the ball.
People seem to keep thinking he'll develop into Drogba, but what Drogba or someone like Lukaku (or even Sturridge) has, which Welbeck doesn't, is that they're selfish. Welbeck is a different type of player which is why you can get away with playing him off the wing or next to another front man and still benefit, while Chelsea have to keep loaning Lukaku out to other clubs. Not that this is a slight on Lukaku because I think he's excellent, but he really is a typical lone front man style striker, like Drogba. Welbeck is anything but.
The season Ruud was 22 he scored 31 goals in 34 matches (second highest in Europe) and a hat trick in the CL. He was voted as the Dutch player of the year. At 23 he added 29 more goals.
Welbeck is 23 tomorrow.
Basically the guy needs to score more goals or could find him self having a mid table career. He's old enough now so he needs to improve. I'm one of his biggest fans but you can't live a career at United off promise.
He really needs to improve his finishing if he wants to ever become more than a squad player for us. It's come to such a situation that as soon as a chance comes to him, I fully expect him to miss.
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