...so his "weakness" - has this not been worked on before??? If not, fine. If so, he obviously isn't learning.
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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...so his "weakness" - has this not been worked on before??? If not, fine. If so, he obviously isn't learning.
Danny looks like he could be real top class and he was the best outfield player in the park against Madrid for my money. If he get pushed through the middle I'm sure goals will follow as this boy is quality.
I remain to be convinced. Still, it's clear he's behind the other three strikers for the role up-front.
Yeah agree RVP Rooney and Hernandez all ahead of him and rightly so at thus stage but I really expect Danny to cement his place here as the boys skill and overall play is ridiculously good.
I'm sure Phil Neville can help coach him on this. Or not!
In all seriousness though, I think it's due to him being played wide too much, he is probably a bit too tense and eager to score when he does get played in the middle.
If you're expecting someone to become a leading line striker having his 'only weakness' being his finishing and shooting technique is quite a big weakness, isn't it?
If we signed Fabio, Smalling, Jones, De Gea tomorrow, we'd all be understandably happy with where they currently as players. We know they'd have things to do, areas to improve on etc but generally I think we'd all be fairly happy with where they were in their development.
Welbeck is around the same age. I think if you think of where the above are in their development, I think Welbeck is quite some way behind. It's not a criticism...well, okay it is, but for my money the aforementioned players are far more 'advanced' than he is in their own positions and they're all around the same age. For me his whole game is at least a pace behind others in the squad who we have of the same age.
If we signed Fabio, Smalling, Jones, De Gea tomorrow, we'd all be understandably happy with where they currently as players. We know they'd have things to do, areas to improve on etc but generally I think we'd all be fairly happy with where they were in their development.
Welbeck is around the same age. I think if you think of where the above are in their development, I think Welbeck is quite some way behind. It's not a criticism...well, okay it is, but for my money the aforementioned players are far more 'advanced' than he is in their own positions and they're all around the same age. For me his whole game is at least a pace behind others in the squad who we have of the same age.
I don't agree with him being behind fabio, Jones or Smalling in development I just think we are better off in quality up front and that's why he doesn't get a game there. We have an injury prone cb and ageing one yet Smalling and Jones haven't managed to nail down that position either and Fabio was way behind being 1st choice full back!
Fabio and Smalling being ahead of WelbeckI meant Rafael rather than Fabio, excuse me.
But yes I think they all further ahead in their respective positions. They look more at home at this level. Welbeck still has games where he looks as if he's making is debut as a starry-eyed youth. I think there's a massive gap in progression/quality between some of our young players and Welbeck isn't in that leading pack for me.
But yes I think they all further ahead in their respective positions. They look more at home at this level. Welbeck still has games where he looks as if he's making is debut as a starry-eyed youth. I think there's a massive gap in progression/quality between some of our young players and Welbeck isn't in that leading pack for me.
Fabio is a far more 'normal' example of a young player developing than Rafael. Most young players aren't in the top 3 in their position in the country at 22, most are struggling for consistency and have major flaws in their game that need ironing out.
Well Welbeck's 'normal' development is fine. He'll probably go on to have a great career and get over 500 games for the most PL teams. But whereas with Jones, Smalling, Rafael, De Gea - or whomever, I think you can see potential if not fulfilling brilliance already. I'm not convinced you can see that with Welbeck which is what would be needed to become a fixture at this club over a period of years.
He's a full year older than Hernandez when he joined and although they're different types of forward IMO Hernandez three (now four) seasons ago when we signed him was in his development as a player much further ahead as Welbeck is now.
It's very, very, very difficult to grow up as striker at a club like ours. I've just seen very little about his game that I think will ever mean the long term answer to any question we have will be Danny Welbeck. Is he good enough for Spurs, Everton, Liverpool etc? Sure. But it's going to take a big, big kick on this season to convince me he'll ever be 'the man' for United. Which is what we all want him to be surely. Rather than 3rd/4th choice striker getting splinters on his arse until he's 30
I have more questions about Smalling's potential to be an important player for United than I do Welbeck.
Even if he isn't the man we were to rely on for 20-30 goals, he contributes enough to be a great asset. There is room for different types of striker for different situations.
Even if he isn't the man we were to rely on for 20-30 goals, he contributes enough to be a great asset. There is room for different types of striker for different situations.
To be completely honest, I don't think he'll ever make it at a top club as a striker. A good option from the bench at best. Playing as an inside forward from the wing or rotating behind the striker he has more of a chance, but he still has a long way to go in terms of development (being very young of course). He drastically needs to improve his end product though, be it his finishing or picking out the right pass because almost every time he gets close to the box he seems to be completely lost and ends up losing the ball.
I think his level will be as a starter at a team competing for European football (between 4-6 place teams) once he develops, I'm not sure if he'll ever have enough to be first choice at a team like United. You look at the players we've had up front or on the wings over the years and Welbeck falls well short of that level and you can't honestly say you see him being as good of a striker as the likes of Rooney, Van Persie, Van Nistelrooy, etc or as good of a winger as Giggs, Ronaldo, Nani, Becks, and so on.
I think his level will be as a starter at a team competing for European football (between 4-6 place teams) once he develops, I'm not sure if he'll ever have enough to be first choice at a team like United. You look at the players we've had up front or on the wings over the years and Welbeck falls well short of that level and you can't honestly say you see him being as good of a striker as the likes of Rooney, Van Persie, Van Nistelrooy, etc or as good of a winger as Giggs, Ronaldo, Nani, Becks, and so on.
My impression is that Danny is working hard to get himself up to speed on the parts of his game that aren't yet at the needed level. So he's out there thinking about getting his foot in the right shape for the pass, constantly checking to make sure his positioning is correct, trying to improve his passing vision, and that this is having a distracting effect on his finishing.
I think he's probably taken it a bit too far, considering his best position is obviously as a striker. However I think he'll come around.
I think he's probably taken it a bit too far, considering his best position is obviously as a striker. However I think he'll come around.
I think he is a really intelligent forward. His movement, pulling defenders out of position, is really noticeable.
Essentially, you are saying he is over-thinking things when in advanced positions, and I agree whole-heartedly.
He needs a run up-top, and be told to take his chances early.
I still have great hopes for him. A belting player, let down by form in front of goal. Probably the best winger last year, isn't bad for a striker, playing out of position.
What has made you assume that? First, having a marked weakness doesn't mean it hasn't been worked on before. Second, when I say 'worked on' I'm actually implying that I believe it can be 'eliminated' in the next 6 months. Similar to how Ronaldo in a space of 7 months went from master of way ward shooting to a good finisher, to 6 months later becoming one of the world's most consistent goal getters of all time.
(NB: I'm just using CR7 as an example of improving finishing. Rather than an example of what Welbeck will become)
That's your opinion. Not mine.
To be fair this is Manchester United and we're kind of used to youngsters making it by 22-23 years of age as first team regulars. When I first watched him as a youngster, I never thought he'd make it as a striker but he's grown on me alot. I've seen some amazing big match performances from him in the Euro's for England and in the CL for us. Is he going to be a great goalscorer and our sole out and out forward, not too sure but he is a player who once he is totally comfortable with his body and goal-scoring clicks for him, he could be excellent.
I wouldn't judge him until he is 25/26, one of those players who will be a late bloomer in my opinion.
Reckon this is the season it all clicks together for him and he makes the step up to prove he's a first choice for the team.
I know I got stick yesterday for my '23 years old' comment but generally you do expect a player to be well on their way by 23. Kagawa is 24, the 'class of 1992' were well on their way by the age of 23. Hernandez was, Rafael is, Jones will be, Rooney was....
...to get to 23 as a striker and still have that much far to go in order to improve the 'striking' aspect of your game is a little worrying. Maybe he'll be a late bloomer as Raees said. Wouldn't mind betting it won't be here though
...to get to 23 as a striker and still have that much far to go in order to improve the 'striking' aspect of your game is a little worrying. Maybe he'll be a late bloomer as Raees said. Wouldn't mind betting it won't be here though
Somwhere deep in the depths of this thread, is the scoring rates for lots of top strikers, at Danny's age.
Until his dip in scoring form last year, he was level/ahead of most of them.
Even if he isn't a first team player, the fact he's a local lad and a good squad player... that should be enough. We seem to think any young player who isn't good enough to play for the first team on a regular basis should be discarded. If he does end up being a 10-15 goal a year man, so be it... as long as he is scoring important goals and helping us win trophies. Alot on here think unless he becomes a 30 goal a year player, he's an abject failure and we should get rid.. but sorry, we don't need a team full of 30+ goals a season strikers... we already have RvP and Rooney, not to mention Hernandez who is very prolific. We can afford to be patient with Danny, let him find his feet and only get rid if he consistenly plays like he did against Singha, which was dreadful by his standards but he'll know that.
You can't exactly ignore an entire year where he only scored 2 goals though. For 11/12, he was first choice pretty much for most of the season playing as the furthest man forward, and yet he only scored 12 goals in 39 games. I remember he had some very poor finishing that year too, especially his finishing when he goes 1 on 1 with a keeper. Almost always makes a complete mess of it, putting it well wide by either mishitting it or something else. In fact I don't remember him ever scoring a break away.
But statistics in this regard can be misleading. Other top strikers at his age who hadn't yet bloomed into what they later became could have been for any number of reasons or there could have been any number of barriers getting in their way. Lack of confidence, being misused, having to tone down or up aggression in their game, etc.
I know Welbeck has been played wide last season (although he ended up through the middle an awful lot too) I think his problem is simply technique. It's different when a player has the technique but just bottles it in front of goal or lacks the aggression to take the chances and simply when the technique isn't there. At least not there to the standard where you hope it is. Take Torres for example. His confidence is shot to pieces now but the technique is still there. If he was playing as he has been these last three years or so aged 19 you could say okay he isn't scoring but the technique and the ability to is there if he gets his head straight. I don't think you can say that about Welbeck. There's nothing obvious holding him back other than not being a very good finisher.
All of this is rubbish!
You don't wish to use stats, but he doesn't score enough?
You think there may be reasons for others late blooming, but not Danny's?
That you think his technique is lacking is laughable!
I have read a lot from you recently, and seem to have the diametrically opposite viewpoint virtually everytime.
While opinions are what they are, I can't seem to find any respect for yours! Sorry.
No, I honestly think Welbeck will step up and score 20+ goals this season. I've always believed that Welbeck would be a top class striker once he stops growing and gets used to his own body, and I think this season is it.
What makes you think he's going to score 20+ goals when we have Van Persie, Rooney and Hernandez all in front of him in the pecking order and there's next to no chance of Welbeck changing that. Unlikely that anyone apart from Van Persie and Rooney if he stays will get over 20 goals, maybe Hernandez if he plays a bit more then last season.
All of this is rubbish!
You don't wish to use stats, but he doesn't score enough?
You think there may be reasons for others late blooming, but not Danny's?
That you think his technique is lacking is laughable!
I have read a lot from you recently, and seem to have the diametrically opposite viewpoint virtually everytime.
While opinions are what they are, I can't seem to find any respect for yours! Sorry.
His technique is fecking horrible compared to what we should be expecting from a Manchester United player aged 23 and about to make his fourth year as a senior Premier League professional. He's the same age Kagawa was when he joined and the gulf in quality is laughable. One we're disappointed in when he falls short of brilliance. The other we think it's commendable he manages to face the right way on the pitch.
How anyone can even begin to compare Welbeck's technique with team mates past or present is beyond me. I think he does well if he manages to not fall the feck over when someone passes him the ball.
You just cannot compare where Welbeck is at 23 and where others who have made it at the club have been by 23. He's miles behind and that's not particularly being unkind IMO. Just look at Rafael's tecnhique or Rooney's at that age playing here. Or Giggs or Beckham or Neville or Scholes. If it sounds harsh to compare him to these players then tough because he's a Manchester United player and this are who is will and should be compared with.
He's a good player by most standards but it's a nonsense to ignore his technical flaws when compared with these guys, who it should be perfectly legtimate to judge him against.
Welbecks technique is horrible?!?
We've heard it all now.
We've heard it all now.
Do you honestly think Welbeck made it to our first team as a striker by having bad finishing technique?
Yes compared to who he should be compared to. There isn't just a small difference in quality between he and the others I've mentioned at his age and deep down people know it. I don't see the benefit in pretending there is. Compared to them his technique.....doesn't compare at all. As i said he's same age Kagawa was when he signed, give or take a month here or there. If anyone can keep a straight face and say the two are even on the same planet (ditto the other players I've mentioned) then I'll take my hat off to them.
No I think he made our first team firstly by berbatov dropping out of favour like a stone and secondly being considered an unrisky option on the wing in the 'season of the shit wingers'.
Richardson played 40 odd league games over a two year period too so I don't think this alone proves anything particularly.
Welbeck being picked ahead of Hernandez last season and Rooney's inability to stay fit throughout an entire campaign means Welbeck will get games, and for goodness sake, I've already stated the reason why I think Welbeck will score 20+ goals this season in the post you've quoted.
Rafael and Scholes were both stockily built and were very much stronger than they look when they both made their debut. The rest of the players didn't have that much physical development once they made their debut and weren't hampered by growing issues. You can't compare players technique when they're being handicapped due to their physical development, Fletcher was often derided in the early stage of his career and his problem was the same as what Welbeck faced, both were hampered by their slow physical development and being played out of position which led to lowered confidence.
Richardson played at a time when we had our worst team in over a decade, while Welbeck played for us in years where we had over 85 points for 2 consecutive seasons. If you can't tell how much harder it is to get games now as compared to when Richardson gotten his, you're clearly blinkered by your hate for Welbeck.
I keep forgetting how young Kagawa still is. He's got such fantastic composure and maturity on the pitch for such a young player.
But this is the Welbeck thread so let me get back to the subject at hand. Like every single other poster here, I'd like to see him raise his game this season. It will be hard for him to develop, however, because we have so many quality strikers. I don't see problems with his skill set or athleticism. Where I do see problems is his decision-making and confidence on goal. The only way to break through that is with lots of playing time. But at whose expense?
To each on their opinions, but I think that your hope is clouding your judgement. There is no way that Welbeck will score 20 goals next season, if he scores 10, we should all be happy.
Welbeck will never be prolific, for me he is simply a decent player who has the ability to link up player and create chances for others.
Welbeck will get lots of patience from coaches and fans despite his poor finishing because even when he isn't scoring he still has enough qualities in his all round game to be an asset to the team. His interplay, powerful direct movement and dribbling ability are impressive, especially for someone who is only 22.
He can also play in various positions. For example I would be happy for him to play on the left on a regular basis ahead of Young, who I think he offers more than from there, apart from crossing that is.
He can also play in various positions. For example I would be happy for him to play on the left on a regular basis ahead of Young, who I think he offers more than from there, apart from crossing that is.
The boy had a disappointing second season, but that's the reason why it's called the second season syndrome. It is an apparent failure proven to afflict various inexperienced players as they struggle to meet the weight of expectations brought about by their full debut seasons. As for the poor performance over the weekend, does anyone remember this?
Needless to say we went on to dispose of him before the season began and the rest as they say is history! Danny deserves at least another season with the first team. Chances will probably be limited and thus the onus is on him to make the best use of them. Judging by the noises coming from Moyes it all appears that almost everyone has been granted a clean slate with reputations counting for little (see recent comments in relation to Rooney). I am sure the lad is himself aware that being a striker for United requires better returns than what he managed last season.
Needless to say we went on to dispose of him before the season began and the rest as they say is history! Danny deserves at least another season with the first team. Chances will probably be limited and thus the onus is on him to make the best use of them. Judging by the noises coming from Moyes it all appears that almost everyone has been granted a clean slate with reputations counting for little (see recent comments in relation to Rooney). I am sure the lad is himself aware that being a striker for United requires better returns than what he managed last season.
Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen on here. I dont even know where to start.
That first paragraph is amazing, especially considering a few months ago Welbeck was the standout player away at the Bernabeu, in the same match where Kagawa did a wonderful disappearing act. 'Gulf in quality is laughable'? The only thing thats laughable is your post. Its actually sad that so many people are so quick to get on the back of a local lad that's come through the ranks, has shown glimpses of pure quality, clearly has a lovely technique, and is a United fan to boot. Unfortunately that seems to be the way for young British lads coming through the system. Just look at Fletcher and Evans. Unless they're perfect straight away, they're useless and will never succeed.
I thought last year was a big year for Welbeck. He started the season seemingly "third choice" striker (featuring in all of our first 11 games - starting 6) , but quickly fell behind Hernandez who was far more effective. I just don't think he offers enough to be starting for a team like United at the moment. He was fortunate that our wingers were in horrific form so he got minutes out wide, but I firmly believe from the chances he had he should have scored at least 10 goals last season.
The shining light of his campaign was the Madrid game, where he was very, very good, but even then most of his best work was in the middle third. He seems to get within 40 yards of the opposition goal and begin to panic.
I still maintain that he needs regular Football to realise his potential. If I was Moyes (and Rooney stayed) I feel we have plenty of cover, enough for him to go to a mid table team and really get some confidence and sort out his finishing. At United you miss a chance or 2 and the pressure can keep on building, we've seen it with seasoned pro's like Rooney and Berbatov, so it is understandable with Welbeck.
I'd send him off to someone like Villa on loan until at least January. I think he'd flourish as their number one, start scoring a few goals and become a much more confident player. Dependent on performances he could be recalled in January and feature quite heavily when we need a bigger squad and are (hopefully) competing on all fronts.
Unfortunately I can see him being a bit part player otherwise and going the same way as pretty much every striker we've brought through since Hughes.
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