It could be, but then im always going to be told im wrong on a United forum arent I? I dont think I am though and I dont think its unreasonable to question Welbeck on his goal return. If as someone stated SAF see's him as a top class player then why as you stated isnt he getting a proper run out in the side?
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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It could be, but then im always going to be told im wrong on a United forum arent I? I dont think I am though and I dont think its unreasonable to question Welbeck on his goal return. If as someone stated SAF see's him as a top class player then why as you stated isnt he getting a proper run out in the side?
because like most young players at United that aren't Rooney or Ronaldo he's used in rotation
Nobody said that he was already top class - people have just said that he could become top class.
Indeed!!
Are you purposely being a bit dim?
Can you not tell the difference between saying he is already top class and saying that he could become top class?
1. I'm pretty sure you know the Caf well enough to know that if you were making a valid criticism of a United player, there'd be at least a couple of people chiming in for you. It's pretty impartial on here for a 'partial' football forum, especially when it comes to slating our own players.
2. As I've said several times, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't question Welbeck's goal return. We all question it - it's not nearly good enough, and he needs to sort it out asap. What I'm saying is that you can't claim that he's never going to be a good player based on one weakness, when he's so exceptional in so many other areas.
3. Um... RVP? Rooney? You know, the best and third best strikers in the Premier League. And Hernandez, the striker with the best goals/minutes ratio in the entire PL era. The games that he is getting are having to be on the wing, which is hardly the easiest way to get yourself out of a goalscoring slump, especially when we're talking about a Fergie winger (old-fashioned wide man, not a 'wide forward' like Hazard, and lots of defensive responsibility, which Welbeck relishes anyway.)
Surely you've read all the possible reasons on the previous pages as to why Welbeck isn't the starting #9 for a top 4 club in the world, banging in 35 goals a season? You're either not listening or you're being obtuse.
Not everybody develops physically or mentally as fast as Rooney or Ronaldo. I am sure you already know this Robert.
Not every player has the ability to play in 3-4 different attacking positions against the best sides at a young age. Again, I am sure you are aware of this.
Why do you think Welbeck played in most of our biggest games in the last two seasons? Liverpool, City, Madrid etc
He made 39 appearances last season and 7 times in Europe, despite having two of the worlds best in front of him. That should be an indication of the sort of player we have on our hands. It's not all about the goals at the moment, and nor should it ever be if he continues to improve.
People are looking at him the wrong way. No doubt if he hasn't got 10 goals and 8 assista by November we'll still be getting this kind of crap
Yeah what Brighton said!!!
Well I thought Lawman had actually said he was a top class player when he said 'this boy is quality. That was why I said it. I was the one making the point about the difference between saying he could be and he was
Well, he didn't, so that was a waste of time. If you would've just read properly instead of getting all carried away in your self proclaimed 'the lone voice of reason on a Man Utd forum' act, you might've saved yourself the bother.
I agree that he's in a pivotal point in his career. Unfortunately I feel he will go one of two ways:
1) He stays at United now and gets moved around, playing sporadically, continues to be neat and tidy but nothing special and ends up a John O'Shea type squad player who moves on in his late twenties after playing a hell of a lot, but being nothing more than a squad player.
2) We adopt the Barcelona model of either loaning him out, or selling him on with a buy-back clause. He plays consistently in his best position and in a couple of years might be a very, very good forward player (potentially good enough to play first choice consistently at United).
The biggest problem is look how many of the top clubs have strikers come through their youth system:
Manchester United: Mark Hughes? (20 years ago)
Liverpool: Michael Owen? (15 years ago)
Arsenal: 25 years+???
Chelsea: 25 years+???
Spurs: 25 years+???
If anyone wants to add to that be my guest.
It just doesn't happen. Top clubs need World Class striker's and don't have the time to give anything but an instant quality striker game time. The one thing all forwards need is to be playing consistently in their best position to progress. I just can't see him making that step without it - for me he either makes the hard decision of becoming a quality player elsewhere (getting games, goals and the confidence that goes with it) or accepts being nothing more than a decent squad player here at United.
/Edit: It's like goalkeepers. A top team doesn't get their first choice keeper from the academy - they get one who's already very good and if it doesn't work out... Buy the next one.
Well I thought Lawman had actually said he was a top class player when he said 'this boy is quality. That was why I said it. I was the one making the point about the difference between saying he could be and he was
Even in your post, you say that there's no indication that Welbeck could become top class. Could.
The way I see it is this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Danny Welbeck won't score you 20 + goals a season. He isn't your classic goal scoring centre-forward, but for me, he still offers a great deal. He provides us with something that little bit different, and you need that. Doesn't matter who you are - you need that variety in there from a squad point of view.
What he gives us is 110% commitment, effort and determination. He is a local lad who has been a United fan all his life and as I have said previously, he would run through a brick wall for this club. His overall link up play is excellent; his movements sharp, he can threaten in behind with his pace; he can drag defenders wide; he's versatile, and his overall knowledge and understanding of the game is excellent. As with all young strikers, there are areas of his game that need working on, but it would be foolish to expect anything different. He can play in a couple of different positions, and weather he plays up front or wide, he has the skill set to put in a performance.
Mentally, he has shown that he is strong enough to perform despite the lack of goals, and that can only be a positive for me. 2 goals in a season is poor to say the least. No two ways about that, but his performance levels haven't dropped because of it. It was always going to be a tough season for him, more so when you consider the contributions that RVP and Hernandez have produced. He's committed, he's powerful, he's quick, and he's intelligent. The basics are there, and I'm sure the goals will come sooner rather than later.
What he gives us is 110% commitment, effort and determination. He is a local lad who has been a United fan all his life and as I have said previously, he would run through a brick wall for this club. His overall link up play is excellent; his movements sharp, he can threaten in behind with his pace; he can drag defenders wide; he's versatile, and his overall knowledge and understanding of the game is excellent. As with all young strikers, there are areas of his game that need working on, but it would be foolish to expect anything different. He can play in a couple of different positions, and weather he plays up front or wide, he has the skill set to put in a performance.
Mentally, he has shown that he is strong enough to perform despite the lack of goals, and that can only be a positive for me. 2 goals in a season is poor to say the least. No two ways about that, but his performance levels haven't dropped because of it. It was always going to be a tough season for him, more so when you consider the contributions that RVP and Hernandez have produced. He's committed, he's powerful, he's quick, and he's intelligent. The basics are there, and I'm sure the goals will come sooner rather than later.
Agree with that. His finishing has been crap for a year, but it's far better than what he has shown. I'm certain it's almost entirely mental at the moment. He'll know he hasn't scored in god knows how long which is bound to be nagging away at him. Once he gets 1 or 2 I'm sure his finishing will return to normal. It's the only part of his game that appears to have regressed since his loan spell... and the most important part. It's frustrating as hell seeing him miss chance after chance. But being the best player on the pitch against a Ronaldo-led Madrid is a fantastic achievement, if he can replicate those performances consistently and improve his finishing to a decent level, he can be a very good player for us.
I dub thee 'Gravedigger', for once you get into a hole you just keep digging until there's a corpse at the bottom.
I like that he's willing to drop deep and become a playmaker. Let's all not forget that when he was leading the line in 11/12 Rooney played in the hole and managed to score 34 goals in the league and 44 in all comps, tied for his best. It was much like Welbeck was a false-9 and Rooney the real striker, and I think it was a very good pairing.
Getting Persie was a real setback for Welbeck, but consider that we didn't earn any more points with Persie in the team than the season before.
For someone who's admitted to not watching a lot of United, it's probably best you spare yourself the embarrassment.
Savage.I'm just gonna put these here..
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It's pretty safe to say with the technical ability that is being shown in these gifs that he certainly is at a high level. (Not top class Rob settle down) Just looking at a few of these moments alone there is indicators that he's in intelligent player in certain situations and that a lack of goals might not be down to his overall ability.
I'm not going to categorically state that he lacks the ability to be a natural finisher. I honestly don't think there is something wrong with his composure that is unfix-able or a definite marker against his other credentials. Sure he was a bit poor in front of goals but can you honestly look at him as a player and say that he doesn't have the potential to have a goal/confidence explosion and score enough to satisfy on a persona/club level?? Given a solid and front line run in an advanced forward or main out and out strike role (I am not saying he's going to do it, I am trying to convey that he's not some nuffy who has show little to nothing in the fact that there is a 'top class' player in there somewhere, if anything he's shown more than his fair share of this).
Confidence and probably composure are similar things in regards to a striker's ability to score regularly. But these seasons where he is not playing up front and/or not scoring is certainly not hurting his development at all. All players go through this, you can't go from complete nuffy to world class overnight. You learn more about yourself as a player when you're out of your comfort zone than you do when you are comfortable. This is the perfect time to do it now that we have RvP and Rooney in the forward line. When RvP dips in a few years he'll have another few seasons under his belt of working hard on his game and learning his trade.
I don't see anything wrong with that in the modern game. But feck it - lets throw 40m at another striker to bring in and ship Welbeck off cause feck youth development.. that's why.
I'm not going to categorically state that he lacks the ability to be a natural finisher. I honestly don't think there is something wrong with his composure that is unfix-able or a definite marker against his other credentials. Sure he was a bit poor in front of goals but can you honestly look at him as a player and say that he doesn't have the potential to have a goal/confidence explosion and score enough to satisfy on a persona/club level?? Given a solid and front line run in an advanced forward or main out and out strike role (I am not saying he's going to do it, I am trying to convey that he's not some nuffy who has show little to nothing in the fact that there is a 'top class' player in there somewhere, if anything he's shown more than his fair share of this).
Confidence and probably composure are similar things in regards to a striker's ability to score regularly. But these seasons where he is not playing up front and/or not scoring is certainly not hurting his development at all. All players go through this, you can't go from complete nuffy to world class overnight. You learn more about yourself as a player when you're out of your comfort zone than you do when you are comfortable. This is the perfect time to do it now that we have RvP and Rooney in the forward line. When RvP dips in a few years he'll have another few seasons under his belt of working hard on his game and learning his trade.
I don't see anything wrong with that in the modern game. But feck it - lets throw 40m at another striker to bring in and ship Welbeck off cause feck youth development.. that's why.
Do we really have to click into every GIF, rather than just see it play when we open the spoiler? feck that, you've just made me question the use of Danny Welbeck.
The links don't even work properly. feck off ghaliboy.
I fixed it you scummy vat of aged pond scrapings. This xenforo caper is brutal for editing and rich format mode doesn't help.
ead TN : lol :
If your computer eats balls like my work one does then, yeah. You do. Saves a page of gifs chugging while trying to load and blended together to create one big browser crashing column of gifs. I was just trying to be helpful to people on a tablet or on a shitter computer... feck.
ead TN : lol :
Are people really writing welbeck off now? He had a good season last one where he didn't get many goals, but other than that he was very good for us. One pre season game where he failed to light things up, along with basically half the players out there and we all assume he is never going to make it here. He will be fine and will get plenty of game time next season, his goal scoring will come once he gets back in the grove of things.
Jesus, his build up play's not that great and his technical ability's horrible...amazing that two of the most fundamental aspects of the game can be so open to interpretation. For me, Welbeck is one of the few players in our team that can pull off moves like these:
The measure of a player's technique is his consistency in performing the basics, of course, and in that sense Welbeck is still finding his touch. He's still a little clumsy. I think that has more to do with - as Sir Alex frequently says - him growing into his frame and adjusting to that then any fundamental technical flaws. Even now he's one of the most consistent, accurate passers in our team. There's an effortless to that side of his game that tells you he's very technically gifted, IMO.
As for all these comparisons - why not just compare him to Saha? I see him reaching that level rather than Henry, and if he did so he'd be a huge asset to us. By the time Saha was 22 he'd scored just 13 goals in 67 appearances, he then scored just 2 goals in 12 for Newcastle, and in his first two seasons in the PL for Fulham he scored 16 goals in 72 games. He was never a "natural" goalscorer yet he was tremendous at leading the line for us in 2006. I see Welbeck having that same potential.
It isn't a hole at all it's refusing to buy into this completely unrealistic assessment of a player that many have. And given how some people here speak about genuine potential top class talents from other sides, if Welbeck wasn't a United player he wouldn't be rated at all by many here let alone this insistence he'll become a top class player.
At his age the quality he has is nowhere near what it should be for a player to succeed at United. Name one player who at the age of 23 was as technically poor at United but went on to have decent career here. It's as if all people have to think is "he'll be top class" and ignore the fact he's miles behind others of his age, even in the current side. The comparison between him and Kagawa and Rafael in terms of technical ability let alone application to individual disciplines underlines this. If some were willing to view things more realistically rather than doing the 'he's a young United player so therefore any other opinion than he's going to be top class is just digging a grave' - I think they'd see that.
Oddly enough I was going to post during my discussion that I saw him performing a Saha role for the club, part of that was the reason why I thought he could fit Everton in the future.
I refrained from saying it though as I thought some may take even more offence to that suggestion.
Don't see why its wrong in suggesting that. Better than some people who are writing him off.
Are you blind? Do you not see the posts just above? Do you not read the explanations regarding his physical growth? If you think he has poor technique, then how does he pull off the fantastic bits of skill? Or do you just ignore it because it doesn't suit your argument? Your statement regarding him being technically poor is among the stupidest I have seen on the caf re Welbeck.
I avoided replying to you earlier, but if I want to continue reading this thread I need an end to your posts which keep repeating the same thing irrespective of what has been posted.
Whatever, just look at the difference between Welbeck at his age now and Kawaga, Rafael, Hernandez, Beckham, Giggs, Nevile, Scholes etc at the same age and then deny there isn't an absolute chasm in terms of quality and progression to date.
Same age Kagawa was when he signed. If Kagawa turned up looking like Welbeck I think we all know what the general consensus would be and it wouldn't be "So what? he's young, he'll be brilliant". Unless the rule is it's unfair to compare him to those of similar age who are at the club already and it's unfair to compare him to those of similar age while at the club who went on to have long and successful careers here. That's fine but where on earth are people getting this insistence he'll go on to be a top player for us? Based on what exactly? Based on the fact he's demonstrably inferior to the previous and current standard set to achieve this?
Things don't happen just because we want it to. There are young players at the club now so obviously technically advanced of him and there have been young players in the past who have been as far if not further ahead. Again I don't see how anything there could be argued with and I noticed nobody has taken to put forward the case that Welbeck at the age of 23 is anywhere near the quality Kagawa, Rafael, Beckham, Rooney, Giggs etc of similar age, let alone comparable.
Same age Kagawa was when he signed. If Kagawa turned up looking like Welbeck I think we all know what the general consensus would be and it wouldn't be "So what? he's young, he'll be brilliant". Unless the rule is it's unfair to compare him to those of similar age who are at the club already and it's unfair to compare him to those of similar age while at the club who went on to have long and successful careers here. That's fine but where on earth are people getting this insistence he'll go on to be a top player for us? Based on what exactly? Based on the fact he's demonstrably inferior to the previous and current standard set to achieve this?
Things don't happen just because we want it to. There are young players at the club now so obviously technically advanced of him and there have been young players in the past who have been as far if not further ahead. Again I don't see how anything there could be argued with and I noticed nobody has taken to put forward the case that Welbeck at the age of 23 is anywhere near the quality Kagawa, Rafael, Beckham, Rooney, Giggs etc of similar age, let alone comparable.
Beckham, Giggs, Neville and Scholes are four of our best players ever.
Rafael could also go onto be the best right back in the world.
Not many players were as good as them at a young age.
Rafael could also go onto be the best right back in the world.
Not many players were as good as them at a young age.
Are you basing this opnion soley on last season? At which I would ask, what about the season prior to that? Does it just not count anymore?
Completely different scenerios. People have come up with arguments to such posts several times, but posters like yourself contunue to ignore them.
He won't score you 20 goals a season, but you will get 110% from him every single time. As I have said previously, he is a local lad and would run through a brick wall for the club. He's strong on the ball; his movements sharp; he can stretch teams in behind; he can play wide, and he's versaitile. The lack of goals will have made a mark confidence wise, but that has to be expected from a 22 year old striker. His overall performances have been good despite that, and he has shown that he has the mental toughness to overcome it.
You need players like Welbeck in your squad, and I'm sure the goals will come.
Beckham, Giggs, Neville and Scholes are four of our best players ever.
Rafael could also go onto be the best right back in the world.
Not many players were as good as them at a young age.
What standard are we setting then?
These are the standards of young players who have made it at the club in (relatively) recent years. If it's unfair to use that as a standard what on earth are people basing this belief he'll become a top player for us on?
De Gea is a young player - he already looks well on his way to be coming one of Europe's top keepers. Kagawa is a young player, he's already top class. Rafael is a young player, he's one of the best right backs around.
So we can't compare him to young players of the past who have succeeded, we cannot compare him with young players around at the moment who are demonstrably superior to him. Therefore he's bound to become a top player for United because....?
great term that....
Also the next bit is bollox too. You try to justify your shit with Welbeck by comparing his ability with that of Giggs Beckham and Scholes at the same age? Really?
Heres another list
Drogba, Forlan, Luca Toni, Ian Wright spot the recurring theme?
Welbeck has at least another couple of seasons to step up. I remain convinced his problems onfront of goal are mental and not based on any lack of ability. We've had this before with certain players. A bit of patience and support would be nice to see from fans.
I can understand people not rating him but the usual suspects, in the aftermath of a preseason friendly defeat emerging from the shadows is rather sad to see when its a local lad at the heart of it. Fletcher/JOS and Evans the cycle seems to be continuing.
People aren't claiming he'll be as good as Scholes or Giggs when they say he could be a 'top player'. Jesus.
It isn't a term it's a word
I agree. But not for us. That's all I and one or two others are arguing. Not that he won't have a stellar PL career but that his quality is demonstrably inferior to the standards that have been set for players of his age to reach at this stage in his career to succeed at this particular club.
We can't say "Well he's not as good as the standards that we have and still currently do expect - but he'll be a top player for us anyway"
He probably is good enough for Everton or Spurs, Newcastle or Liverpool. I've never said anything other than that. But if you're looking at him being a first-choice Manchester United player over the next six or seven years the quality simply isn't there and the way people object to comparing him to comparable aged-talents who have gone on to have successful careers, just shows that
Any chance of addressing the rest of the post?
But the standards you are setting are ridiculously high. Saha and Park were top players for us. O'Shea, Fletcher, Brown. There are loads of examples.
Well that depends on your terminology. Those were good first team players for us and I'd not doubt Welbeck's ability to be in his own way as good as any of them. My understanding of the debate of what constitutes a 'top' player appears to be a little different. I was talking in terms of those players who go on to have 'top/elite' careers at this level as opposed to squad players who can do a job for us very competently and walk into most other sides in the league.
Park was very underrated btw, I wouldn't include him in the above at all.
At stages in their career, Park and Saha were two of the first names on our teamsheet. Fletcher too. I'd be disappointed if Welbeck doesn't become at least as good as them.
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