Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

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Revan said:
Who are these plenty of strikers, who score one on 3-4 games and play at top clubs?
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Here are the strikers at top 6 clubs who were (around) 1-3 or worse last season, just from a quick search
Adebayor 5 in 25
Defoe 15 in 43
Tevez 11 in 34
Jelavic 7 in 37
Lukas Podolski 11 in 33 (ok he was on the left often, so feel free to discount him)
Giroud 11 in 34
Torres 22 in 64
 
Robbie Boy said:
What is my mind exactly? I like Welbeck but I'm telling you what I saw in front of me last season. You're blind faith is just a-bit much, imo. Even in his breakthrough season, he finishing was erratic at times and still is. It's a part of his game that he really has to improve on. I'm sorry but this whole '3' goals thing is just a poor argument.
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Yeah, because it's pretty stupid to use last season as a measure. Hes young and was out of position. Nani scored 3 goals last year, and not much more than ten is his best years. Even at his age I'd wager that he can improve on those figures, because I generally feel players develop and progress, especially talented ones.

Do you struggle with Maths? To reach 15 goals he needs to score 3 more than he did in the only season he has played as a striker! It's not an argument, it's a fact.

Blind faith?! I just offered the opinion that I think he can score 3 more than what we've already seen he can score.
 
Drainy said:
Here are the strikers at top 6 clubs who were (around) 1-3 or worse last season, just from a quick search and not to make a point beyond it's not unheard of for strikers to get 1 in 3 or worse and still contribute

Adebayor 5 in 25
Defoe 15 in 43
Tevez 11 in 34
Jelavic 7 in 37
Lukas Podolski 11 in 33 (ok he was on the left often, so feel free to discount him)
Giroud 11 in 34
Torres 22 in 64
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Fair enough, though by clubs I was thinking about the top clubs, not the like of Spurs, Arsenal and Everton.
 
Fergus' son said:
Yeah, because it's pretty stupid to use last season as a measure. Hes young and was out of position. Nani scored 3 goals last year, and not much more than ten is his best years. Even at his age I'd wager that he can improve on those figures, because I generally feel players develop and progress, especially talented ones.

Do you struggle with Maths? To reach 15 goals he needs to score 3 more than he did in the only season he has played as a striker! It's not an argument, it's a fact.
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Erm ok. Anyway, a better logic would to look at his goals-to-games ratio in the league over the course of his career and you will see he averages around a goal every 6 games. Now that logic is also flawed because he wouldn't have started all those games, etc, but it's far better than your logic. If you can't see that Welbeck is and always has been erratic in front of goal, then I'm absolutely amazed. You are the one being difinitive here and stating as 'fact' that he would definitely score 20 a season, and it's just a ridiculous thing to be difinitive about. Welbeck needs to improve aspects of his game if he wants to hit those heights, it as simple as that. It's not as if anyone has said he is 'shit' or anything, but saying he needs to work on his finishing is pretty fair, I think. You are making out that he didn't get a single chance in front of goal last season, he did, and his finishing let him down on plenty of occasions.

Anyway if you want to believe this '3' goal thing, then good for you.
 
Fergus' son said:
Yeah, because it's pretty stupid to use last season as a measure. Hes young and was out of position. Nani scored 3 goals last year, and not much more than ten is his best years. Even at his age I'd wager that he can improve on those figures, because I generally feel players develop and progress, especially talented ones.
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Please stop with this nonsense comparisons. Nani played 17 games last season while Welbeck played 39. While Nani is his best seasons scored only 20 goals, he made another 30 assists combined on those two seasons. Welbeck made 5 assists last season, not only his goals, but he's very average at assists too.

At the moment - for me - he is a promising player, nothing more, nothing less. I think that it can easily go in both ways. It's not clear that he'll be a great striker at all.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Erm ok. Anyway, a better logic would to look at his goals-to-games ratio in the league over th course of his career and you will see he averted around a goal every 6 games. Now that logic is also flawed because he would t have started all those games, etc, but it's far better than your logic. If you can't see that Welbeck is and always has been erratic in front of goal, then I'm absolutely amazed. You are the one being difinitive here and stating as 'fact' that he would definitely score 20 a season, and it's just a ridiculous thing to be difinitive about. Welbeck needs to improve aspects of his game if he wants to hit those heights, it as simple as that. It's not as if anyone has said he is 'shit' or anything, but saying he needs to work on his finishing is pretty fair, I think. You are making out that he didn't get a single chance in front of goal last season, he did, and his finishing let him down on plenty of occasions.

Anyway if you want to believe this '3' goal thing, then good for you.
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:lol:

Why would you use his ratio over his career when you openly admit those figures are going to be hugely skewed by being a sub, young, and out of position when you can use a season where he was played regularly and up front? Why? Seriously, why? It's seems beyond absurd to me.

I told you we should probably leave this discussion because we wouldnt agree and it was true. It's been a huge displeasure conversing with you.
 
Revan said:
Please stop with this nonsense comparisons. Nani played 17 games last season while Welbeck played 39. While Nani is his best seasons scored only 20 goals, he made another 30 assists combined on those two seasons. Welbeck made 5 assists last season, not only his goals, but he's very average at assists too.

At the moment - for me - he is a promising player, nothing more, nothing less. I think that it can easily go in both ways. It's not clear that he'll be a great striker at all.
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Ok let's disagree, but when the feck did Nani score 20 goals in his best season? He has about 30 goals in total for us doesn't he?
 
Fergus' son said:
:lol:

Why would you use his ratio over his career when you openly admit those figures are going to be hugely skewed by being a sub, young, and out of position when you can use a season where he was played regularly and up front? Why? Seriously, why? It's seems beyond absurd to me.

I told you we should probably leave this discussion because we wouldnt agree and it was true. It's been a huge displeasure conversing with you.
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I wasn't using those stats you see, it was actually just to show you how ridiculous your logic is.

P.S - Don't be getting so upset and precious, it's only an internet forum.
 
Fergus' son said:
Ok let's disagree, but when the feck did Nani score 20 goals in his best season? He has about 30 goals in total for us doesn't he?
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I meant in his best seasons, meant in his best season combines (2010-2011 and 2011-2012) he has scored 20 goals (10 for seasons) and made around 30 assists combined. Welbeck hasn't showed that he can do it yet.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I wasn't using those stats you see, it was actually just to show you how ridiculous your logic is.

P.S - Don't be getting so upset and precious, it's only an internet forum.
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I'm not upset, robbie boy.

Ridiculous logic? Using previous stats as a measure to form an opinion on what could proceed? If you say so, robbie boy, if you say so.
 
Revan said:
I meant in his best seasons, meant in his best season combines (2010-2011 and 2011-2012) he has scored 20 goals (10 for seasons) and made around 30 assists combined. Welbeck hasn't showed that he can do it yet.
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Yeah, Nani has scored like 12 in his best season. I think he'd be able to push that up to 15 given a consistent run in the team and being more confident, despite having never achieved that figures before.
 
Fergus' son said:
I'm not upset, robbie boy.

Ridiculous logic? Using previous stats as a measure to form an opinion on what could proceed? If you say so, robbie boy, if you say so.
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You are obviously a little bit precious, sorry Ferg, I didn't realise. You're logic of using his best season and difinitively saying he is nailed on to score 15 to 20 a season is ridiculous logic, surely you can see that. Why are you getting so upset anyway? All people are saying is that what you said is silly and he needs to work on his finishing. It's not really that bad of a thing to say surely? As it is quite clearly true.
 
You say best as if I'm cherry picking from about ten different seasons, I'm picking the one out of two seasons in which he played regularly as a starter and up front. He scored 12 then and I think if he plays there again and consistently, he can score atleast 15.

We can leave it at that because you are really struggling.
 
Fergus' son said:
You say best as if I'm cherry picking from about ten different seasons, I'm picking the one out of two seasons in which he played regularly as a starter an up front. He scored 12 then and I think if he plays there again and consistently, he can score atleast 15.

We can leave it at that because you are really struggling.
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I'm struggling? You are kind of arguing with yourself and getting wound up. Read back through the posts and you will see that no one said anything negative about Welbeck (everything was said in a constructive way). Anyway though once Welbeck gets those '3' extra goals, all will be good. I'm astonished you believe in your logic, I really am.

Anyway, we can agree that we all hope Welbeck has a better season in front of goal this coming season.
 
Fergus' son said:
You say best as if I'm cherry picking from about ten different seasons, I'm picking the one out of two seasons in which he played regularly as a starter an up front. He scored 12 then and I think if he plays there again and consistently, he can score atleast 15.

We can leave it at that because you are really struggling.
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He could score 15 of course (if he plays as a striker), if he can't then he doesn't have a future. Though it's not even clear that he surely can score 15 goals because as I said he was much worse in front of goal last season then in the one he played as the leading striker.

Anyway, I don't think that he can hope to be our main striker and score only 15 goals a season. All of RVP, Rooney and Chicha can score much more than that if they play as leading strikers and are regulars. For that I am still in doubt for his position. For the next couple of years I think that his best chance of being a regular is if he plays as a winger and improves his scoring/assists rate. Around 15 goals and assists combined is the minimum you can expect for a United regular winger, and hopefully Danny can do that.
 
Always with our young players there's never an inch given from the "he'll improve leaps and bounds and become brilliant" position. I've lost count of the number of names me and my mates have debated with other the years. Richardson was one. He played a fair few games over a two or three year period. "He'll be brilliant, you're talking shite" the usual mantra to any reservation expressed of his ability. It happens every time. We can't have a young player do well and for people to realistically assess his future in the team.

I suspect we'll be there with Cleverley soon if not already. Some will refuse to even countenance any opinion other than "he'll be fecking brilliant" and question the mental capacity of those who may suggest otherwise. I don't get what being realistic about someone's prospects are. A player won't become brilliant if enough people say they will. Reality isn't changed by opinions so I don't get why so many people take such a slanted view. I admit I have doubts about Welbeck's development as a player. I don't have doubts about Smalling or Jones or (even though he's a bit older) Evans. So I don't get why I or others who express doubts over one young player should be pigeon holed into this 'anti-young player' fan.

Some young players I can see with a future at the club - others I can't. For me Welbeck's asset is in his approach play and link-play rather than being an out and out forward and I have my doubts whether he'll ever be in the top two or three in the club who can do that.
 
Stickles said:
Always with our young players there's never an inch given from the "he'll improve leaps and bounds and become brilliant" position. I've lost count of the number of names me and my mates have debated with other the years. Richardson was one. He played a fair few games over a two or three year period. "He'll be brilliant, you're talking shite" the usual mantra to any reservation expressed of his ability. It happens every time. We can't have a young player do well and for people to realistically assess his future in the team.

I suspect we'll be there with Cleverley soon if not already. Some will refuse to even countenance any opinion other than "he'll be fecking brilliant" and question the mental capacity of those who may suggest otherwise. I don't get what being realistic about someone's prospects are. A player won't become brilliant if enough people say they will. Reality isn't changed by opinions so I don't get why so many people take such a slanted view. I admit I have doubts about Welbeck's development as a player. I don't have doubts about Smalling or Jones or (even though he's a bit older) Evans. So I don't get why I or others who express doubts over one young player should be pigeon holed into this 'anti-young player' fan.

Some young players I can see with a future at the club - others I can't. For me Welbeck's asset is in his approach play and link-play rather than being an out and out forward and I have my doubts whether he'll ever be in the top two or three in the club who can do that.
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Good post and all true. Some can't even listen to constructive critism about any of our players. Ok, on the other hand there will be people that go OTT with the other extreme, Welbeck is shite, etc.

As I said in another post, Welbeck's all-round game is very beneficial for the team and his link-up play etc at times is brilliant - 'that' match against Everton in the 11/12 season highlights how good his all-round play and link-up play can be. He is far from a natural goal scorer at this moment in time and his finishing has always been erratic. It's an aspect of his game that he will have to greatly improve if be wants to be hitting double figures on a regular basis.
 
Stickles said:
For me Welbeck's asset is in his approach play and link-play rather than being an out and out forward and I have my doubts whether he'll ever be in the top two or three in the club who can do that.
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He is strong at holding the ball up, maintaining possession, doing lay offs, one touch passing high up the pitch, bringing other players into the game, running the channels and creating space for others with his movement from an offensive perspective, but he also helps your team control the game by hassling the defenders or sitting on their deep lying midfielder- he is very strong tactically/ defensively. He is very strong with his back to goal, but nowhere near direct and assertive enough yet to be a 'consistent goal threat'. I'm hoping that playing deeper was part of the plan to get him to take more risks/ come out of his shell a bit with the ball facing goal.

I personally think losing his unselfishness up front was part of the reason we were so unproductive from the wide areas last season, although when you have RvP to finish your chances, I guess you don't really feel the lack of creativity that hard since he is such an efficient finisher.
 
Stickles said:
They got better at what it was they did. I think Welbeck will too but I don't think he'll be a player who scores more than about 7 goals in an average season and possibly 9 or 10 in a good one. It's not impossible but I can't see it.
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So you think that his 10/11 return was just a freakishly good season for him, goalscoring-wise? Weird. Safe to say Sir Alex has a distinctly different opinion of Welbeck's potential.

"He got nine goals last season but if you are going to be a top striker you have to get 20 or above. I think he will do that."

He must either think Welbeck can defy the laws of nature or he's shown more goalscoring potential than you've seen in him.
 
Brwned said:
So you think that his 10/11 return was just a freakishly good season for him, goalscoring-wise? Weird. Safe to say Sir Alex has a distinctly different opinion of Welbeck's potential.

"He got nine goals last season but if you are going to be a top striker you have to get 20 or above. I think he will do that."

He must either think Welbeck can defy the laws of nature or he's shown more goalscoring potential than you've seen in him.
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That's the impression I'm getting, that people think the 12 he scored was a freakishly good return from him.
 
Fergus' son said:
That's the impression I'm getting, that people think the 12 he scored was a freakishly good return from him.
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My guess is that they are looking at his finishing in the last months of last season and that game against Singha IX and think that is his normal standard of finishing so if we play him up front he'll miss pretty much every chance.

He's not a composed finisher but he's better than what he's shown recently. He just needs to hit a rich vein of form and he'll kick on- like Hernandez with his control it will just click for him, in my opinion.
 
Drainy said:
My guess is that they are looking at his finishing in the last months of last season and that game against Singha IX and think that is his normal standard of finishing so if we play him up front he'll miss pretty much every chance.

He's not a composed finisher but he's better than what he's shown recently. He just needs to hit a rich vein of form and he'll kick on- like Hernandez with his control it will just click for him, in my opinion.
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Yeah, I think so too.
 
Brwned said:
So you think that his 10/11 return was just a freakishly good season for him, goalscoring-wise? Weird. Safe to say Sir Alex has a distinctly different opinion of Welbeck's potential.

"He got nine goals last season but if you are going to be a top striker you have to get 20 or above. I think he will do that."

He must either think Welbeck can defy the laws of nature or he's shown more goalscoring potential than you've seen in him.
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Sir Alex said that he'll go to World Cup 2010 too. Talking goog words about a youngster, doesn't necessarily mean that that player will turn out to be as good as good as SAF said/hoped.

To be clear, I am not saying that Welbeck will never score 20 goals per season. Just thah he hasn't shown that he can do that and he needs to drastically improve his goal scoring ability in order to do that.
 
I don't see him becoming a prolific striker for us any time soon. This isn't a knock on his ability, but he has 3 players ahead of him who at this stage are much better goal scorers than he is and a club who is expected to win things can't be charitable with spots in the starting XI if they aren't producing consistently.

I do see Danny becoming our new Park as our big game player or the player given a specific task, but a role that doesn't rely on him being a goal scorer.
 
He lacked confidence nearing the end of last season, some things didn't come off but in the main I'd agree with this:

Drainy said:
He is strong at holding the ball up, maintaining possession, doing lay offs, one touch passing high up the pitch, bringing other players into the game, running the channels and creating space for others with his movement from an offensive perspective, but he also helps your team control the game by hassling the defenders or sitting on their deep lying midfielder- he is very strong tactically/ defensively.
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He just needs a few games playing up front, 3-4 goals and I think he'll fly. He's proven everything else, he's a potential force. And I think he'll prove it.
 
Revan said:
Sir Alex said that he'll go to World Cup 2010 too. Talking goog words about a youngster, doesn't necessarily mean that that player will turn out to be as good as good as SAF said/hoped.

To be clear, I am not saying that Welbeck will never score 20 goals per season. Just thah he hasn't shown that he can do that and he needs to drastically improve his goal scoring ability in order to do that.
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He was only a year or two out with regards England. He's a regular now.
 
The Neviller said:
He was only a year or two out with regards England. He's a regular now.
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It was only an example of something SAF saying that doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong, I hope that Welbeck succeed here and I think that he has every chance to make it. Just that I am a bit worry about his lack of goals that he had during the last season. If he improves that on the next two seasons, surely we'll have a great player. If not...
 
Revan said:
It was only an example of something SAF saying that doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong, I hope that Welbeck succeed here and I think that he has every chance to make it. Just that I am a bit worry about his lack of goals that he had during the last season. If he improves that on the next two seasons, surely we'll have a great player. If not...
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If not, we'll still have a great player. He offers a lot more than just goals, it's when he has goals that he'll be better than great.
 
Genius Me! said:
If not, we'll still have a great player. He offers a lot more than just goals, it's when he has goals that he'll be better than great.
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I doubt this. When Welbeck becomes 25 years old and if he only scores around 5 goals a season (regardless if it is as a winger or as a striker) there is no chance that he could be called a great player, and at best he would be a utility player.
 
Revan said:
I doubt this. When Welbeck becomes 25 years old and if he only scores around 5 goals a season (regardless if it is as a winger or as a striker) there is no chance that he could be called a great player, and at best he would be a utility player.
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I think he offers a lot to the team in more ways than just scoring so we'll just have to disagree. I'm confident that he'll add to his goals anyway.
 
Genius Me! said:
I think he offers a lot to the team in more ways than just scoring so we'll just have to disagree. I'm confident that he'll add to his goals anyway.
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Everyone knows that he offers more than goals to the team. We have shown that in the last two years plenty of times. The problem though is that goals (and assists) are not only a bonus for attacking players. They are one of the most important part of the games. I can't see a regular United attacking player who won't contribute at-least with 15 goal/assists a season (probably even more).
 
The problem at United, as Diego Forlan learned, is that opportunities to develop and prove yourself are scarce as a striker.

If RVP stays healthy, Rooney remains at the club, or if Lewandowski arrives, Welbeck may never get his chance.

Even at Sunderland he looked best as a wide player using his pace and technical ability to do damage. Maybe he can start wide and move later in his career like Henry did.
 
People are so eager to draw extreme conclusions.

Welbeck is good young player who has a real problem with how he performs in the final third. It is of course something he can get better at. Will he ever become as clinical as an rvn? I don't think so. But are players development graphs so predictable that we can rule out him getting a lot better at? Of course not.

Did anyone think Ronaldo could have become a goalscoring machine and would be hitting more than a goal a game season after season? Did many predict Giggs, the tricky winger, would me up a very intelligent central midfielder/playmaker? How many thought the bumbling and clumsy Drogba would become one of Europes most feared players? What about Suarez going from hilarious in front of goal last to last season to almost topping the scoring the goalscoring charts in the one just gone by?
 
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I have high hopes for Danny. He brings so many other things to the table that it is wrong to judge him based solely on his goal tally. Which is bound to improve with time and experience.

IMO, we should try to develop him in the wide-forward role or to play behind the striker. He skills would be better utilized in those areas. He need to be involved in the build-up rather than get isolated when playing as a lone striker.
 
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