Where have you got that from? That's complete bollocks.
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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Where have you got that from? That's complete bollocks.
If you don't have an attribute at the age of 23 you're not very likely to have it later in life. Little things like strength or agility. You cannot 'learn' to become a great striker in your early to mid 20s if you've not got the attributes there.
Otherwise he may as well try his hand at goalkeeping now if you think that you can pick up any skill. You can't. He's never been a great finisher, he isn't a great finisher and bar a miracle he'll never be a great finisher. He'll score five a season for the next two years and people like you will still be convinced he'll come good. Denying reality does nobody any good. He'll be a decent back-up striker for us but beyond that at our level he's got very little chance of being 'the man' as you don't suddenly change as a footballer aged 23.
If he had the striking ability there but it was hindered by youthful exuberence or inexperience then it'd be a totally different thing. But he simply doesn't have it.
Welbeck was mostly out wide, but it's far from his favoured position. He struggled, but it was a good season for him to learn more discipline. If he continued in the same manner as 11/12, he may have scored more goals, but the signing of Van Persie was a massive blow for him. I don't think his finishing is the problem, I believe it's his composure. If you see today's misses, they were all down to lack of composure and that has to do with the psychological impact of not finding momentum. There was a chance in the first half where he tried to take it past the goalkeeper, instead of shoot. While he should not be berated for this sort of miss, the incertitude and nature of what he was trying to do conveys the essence of my argument. The last miss further emphasises my point. He took the ball under control after a sublime touch, but it took him too long - duration for a striker - to take the shot... I think he was affected and effected by the misses earlier in the game, too. While I certainly don't think Welbeck has proven himself as a striker, he's only 22 - he's approaching 23 soon. The main thing is that some of us believe he'll improve, he isn't the finished product just yet. For some to compare him to Heskey, who is vastly inferior, is astonishing.
That's not the point I was trying to make. What is Rooney doing to help Welbeck improve his finishing? What is Van Persie doing to help Welbeck improve his finishing?
You're being unfair. Assists aren't intrinsic to this argument. Last season, Welbeck had 4 assists, while Hernández had 5 assists - I don't see how one solitary assists suggests that the latter is superior in linking up with team mates. In fact, the stats that we should be looking at are the following: Welbeck makes an average of 18.8 passes a game; Hernández an average of 12.2 (in the Premier League). Overall, Welbeck made 641 passes; Hernández made 364 passes (Premier League + Champions League). In the Premier League alone, Welbeck made 508 passes, while Hernández made 268. In 11/12, Welbeck made an average of 24.5 passes per game; Hernández made 14.4. Both are different players... Assists don't show how superior a player's link-up play is to another, the stats I just posted do and it's why Welbeck was favoured over Hernández in 11/12 and some parts of last season.
EDIT - Welbeck played 2 games (I say 3, but it doesn't matter) as a lone striker last season: http://www.whoscored.com/Players/39308/Show/Danny-Welbeck
The bolded part is so ridiculous that I haven't even bothered to read the rest of the post.
We rarely play with a lone striker so surely every striker we have would rarely play that position on the basis we usually don't have lone striker?
I personally think that Welbeck should play backwards...always with his back to goal....invariably he then scores...
feck sake. Players don't 'develop' at 23. They do that formatively. It's not like being a mature student. You don't just walk in aged 24 and say "I want to be a teacher now". Welbeck will improve based on the SKILLS HE HAS. He's not suddenly going to become a great goal scorer. He will improve based on the attributes he has.
He isn't going to suddenly find himself a prolific goalscorer as he's never been that. 116 senior games, or there abouts. At 23 you improve on the attributes you do have. You don't suddenly find new ones from no where. He may well improve his link up play, his positioning and his control of the ball. Because he has all those attributes already. What he's not going to do is wake up in his mid 20s and become Ruud van Nistlerooy.
Wait, Manchester United don't play with a lone striker?
Scholesy has come back!!!
I'm not even going to get any further into it. It's absurd. As I said, I just can't wait for him to prove so many people wrong. Can't. fecking. Wait.
At least Scholesy was likeable.
Luckily for Danny Welbeck, he's not 23 yet. So Stickles' idiotic and arbitrary age limit for improvement hasn't struck yet.
No what'll happen is that he'll be sold in a year or two's time, you'll never mention him again and will refocus on the next youth prospect who you'll go into 'Full Metal Jacket toilet scene mode' again and insist he'll be brilliant and anyone who doubts it is a wanker.
Seen it all before.
Stickles, there is always room to improve. Ask van Persie.
Now in terms of late bloomers, Didier Drogba is a great example. Diego Forlan isn't a bad shout either.
Now in terms of late bloomers, Didier Drogba is a great example. Diego Forlan isn't a bad shout either.
Although Rooney was a much better finisher at his age, he is proof that finishing can improve quite dramatically over time.
Welbeck has ridiculous talent but as we all know his finishing and at times touch has to improve dramatically too.
He will never be a 20 goal a season man though IMO.
Welbeck has ridiculous talent but as we all know his finishing and at times touch has to improve dramatically too.
He will never be a 20 goal a season man though IMO.
Cleverley mentioned after he scored a curler vs Newcastle in the cup last season that he was practising them types of finishes with Rooney in training. You could see that because he scored against Sunderland and West Ham with curlers as well. If Cleverley is able to improve his finishing while training with the strikers then I don't see how it is their fault? Maybe Welbeck should work harder on his finishing.
Even the website you linked to doesn't have Rooney or RVP as playing lone striker last season once.
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3859/
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/4564/
So I didn't think we did but even the website you use to confirm we do doesn't appear to think we do either
I have been criticizing Welbeck for not scoring, and really think that if he doesn't drastically improve his finishing and composure he won't be a United player for long but saying that a player doesn't improve his goal scoring after the age of 23 is very ridiculous. He has every chance to improve it and if he does, then good for us. If not, a mid-table club is waiting.
Orrrr, what'll actually happen is Welbeck will fulfil is undoubted World Class potential and after years of typing your drivel all over the caf about it will simply say "Oh well lolz, I was wrong about this one. Soooooo glad I was though. He's amaaaazzzzzing. Welbz and Man Utd the best 4 eva." and you'll just move on to the next youth prospect to slag off.
Seen that all before.
Welbeck is not a 'youth prospect' anymore, he's an established member of the first team.
Last season was a mini-disaster for him but we all knew he was going to struggle with the arrival of Van Persie. In 2011-12 he was our first choice forward leading the line, ahead of Hernandez, who had come off an excellent debut season, and has ended up playing 80 games in two years.
Thierry Henry had a similar record to Welbeck at the same age. He turned out all right didn't he?
Welbeck may or may not improve his finishing but writing him of at 22 is just pathetic
Welbeck may or may not improve his finishing but writing him of at 22 is just pathetic
My comments about not improving beyond the age of 23 was in relation to his striking prowess as that was what was being discussed. He's not a prolific striker, never has been and never will be. His game will improve based on the attributes that he has but it's very unlikely that beyond his mid 20s he's suddenly going to become a completely different player. I didn't think that was too unreasonable a statement to make.
it might improve a bit but i think it's dream world if we think he's going to become a completely different player over the next couple of years. Generally you can plot a players trajectory from an early age and certainly by their mid 20s. They may improve somewhat in areas but I don't think there's going to be a dramatic development of an attribute he doesn't have. If he had it but other things got in his way - temperament, discipline, decision making etc, then that's easily unlockable. But I don't think it can be suddenly instilled out of the blue in a player who's a well established, international player isn't going to do a 180. I don't think you can make someone aged 23 who isn't a great striker into a great striker. At least a prolific one.
It's not impossible but it's fairly improbable.
Of course some will read this as me saying "23 year old's can't improve" but that's their look out.
Those "X player scored the same amount of goals when he was 23" comparisons are bollocks.
They don't help prove your point do they?
I wasn't taking a dig at the players, I'm genuinely interested in knowing what they are doing to help other players and not just Welbeck, but you have cleared that up. Cheers.
What? It has Van Persie/Rooney/Welbeck playing as a centre-forward. Lone striker and centre-forward are very similar, so you're making something out of nothing here. In fact, it doesn't detract from my original point. Manchester United played a 4-4-1-1 (a 4-2-3-1 to some) with Rooney as an attacking midfielder, behind the lone striker who was Van Persie. What the website does prove is that you are harsh in your opinion. You've decided to talk about petty things, instead of reply directly to my post in the previous page.
When Henry was in his 23rd year as a player he scored 22 goals. He scored 26 the year before. If we want to make comparisons there could be better.
Would it be such a bad idea to send him on loan to a club like Southampton, it would be interesting to see how he performs playing regular football.
Henry had 30 goals in about 160 games. Welbeck has a similar record.
Whatever the stats, the truth is that he needs to start scoring this season if he is to maintain his squad place at united. We need our fourth striker to bang in goals like ole, sherringham, Cole and Dwight. We need that spread to compete in all the competitions, no question about that. Also we need a midfielder to bang in some as well. Carrick does it rarely and Cleverly is really needing to up that part of his game, and as for Anders...he sky highs it more than a rugby player. Valencia and Young could do with improving that to. Nani could if given the opportunity, which maybe he will this season, I don't know. When you think of Giggs on the wing, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis etc...you can see how effective that contribution to the goals tally is.
It's only bollocks if you want it to be bollocks.
Some people are so stubborn that it doesn't matter what anyone says, they will stick to their opinion and that is that.
Even if he ends up scoring 20 goals next season, I don't think it'll change certain opinions, because he won't have been consistent over 2 or 3 seasons or something to that effect.
Correct. Some posters here are a bunch of wankers
Beckham was never a dribbler. He didn't have it in him. He could drive forward, sometimes under challenge. But a dribbler he was not. Not really.
in 1998 he was 23. If someone was to have said to you in 1998 about Beckham "he's 23, his dribbling is unlikely to improve" - I'd doubt it'd elicit a response of near abject horror as my statement about Welbeck not being likely to improve as a finisher was. But the two statements aren't actually that different from each other save for different in personnel and attribute. The principle would remain the same.
in 1998 he was 23. If someone was to have said to you in 1998 about Beckham "he's 23, his dribbling is unlikely to improve" - I'd doubt it'd elicit a response of near abject horror as my statement about Welbeck not being likely to improve as a finisher was. But the two statements aren't actually that different from each other save for different in personnel and attribute. The principle would remain the same.
If Welbeck scores 20 goals this season, I'll strip naked, rub myself against Nelson's column shouting..."mmmm kiss me Hardy"
I think I'm safe there......
Didier Drogba hadn't scored more than 7 goals in an entire season until he was 24 years old.
The fact that he went on to become a Chelsea legend must shock you.
When he had played a similar number of senior games his goal scoring record was 1 in 3.1. Welbeck's is 1 in every 5.1 games. So I'm not terribly shocked.
Also perhaps worth noting Drogba played in second division French league teams during this time. Welbeck played in the Premier league either ourselves or Sunderland, save for a short loan at Preston.
A versatile, clever and athletic 22 year old forward, who could probably do with a bit more selfishness and directness within 20 yards of the goal. All this shit about him not scoring enough isn't really relevant when you've got the players we have and Welbeck is doing good work on and off the ball all over the pitch.
I don't think you can really improve too much technically after a certain point, but to say you can't improve as a footballer is a pile of fecking dog turd.
I don't think you can really improve too much technically after a certain point, but to say you can't improve as a footballer is a pile of fecking dog turd.
I don't think anyone besides you has talked about him becoming a completely different player or becoming the new van Nistelrooy. It's not so black and white. In general people are simply saying that last season is not representative of his goalscoring potential and that he should simply continue on the upward trend he was on before then. Last season was the exception yet based on your "5 goals a season" comment you seem to believe it's the norm. It's not. He scored 6 goals in 10/11 (while often playing out wide), 12 goals in 11/12...is it really that absurd to think he'd continue improving that rate to eventually get 20 goals in a season? Is that really the same as suggesting he'd turn into a completely different player? If last season was all we saw of Welbeck then yes, it'd be a bit of an outrageous claim. You seem to be ignoring that Welbeck was impressive the year before though. In fact his goals per mins ratio was better than Suarez that year. Maybe Welbeck has shown more potential in that area than you and a few others care to acknowledge...
So you make a point, to say you're not shocked, then you undermine that point by stating someone as good as Drogba who is widely regarded as a late bloomer started out in the lower divisions of an arguably less competitive country.
To say a player can't develop skills and learn things beyond 23 is ridiculous which was what everyone is hinting at.
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