Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
- Thread starter KM
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No, but I have these things called eyes.
Yeah, you're right; debates on football are usually conducted with the utmost degree of manner and decorum
It is BS Cider. I have long legs and a short torso yet balance was one of my main attributes when I played sports. You are clutching at straws, he is just bloody inconsistent in everything that he does, sometimes his balance is superb and sometimes it is rubbish. It is more likely psychological, either losing confidence during the match or in preparation. American's call it 'bringing your A game', hopefully he will improve this with age.
Yeah, you're right; debates on football are usually conducted with the utmost degree of manner and decorum
It's called a middle ground, debate doesn't have to be an episode of Jeeves and Wooster but it is possible to talk about football and not bore everyone with schoolyard name calling.
As with Danny Welbeck.
I bet you still looked like a fecking gimp though, you gangly freak.
What other United players do I overly criticize? I'm being critical in a respectful way, on a Manchester United forum with other fans. I'm not one of these cnuts who boo's the team or goes "OI WELBECK YER FOOKIN SHIT SON". Some of words being used like "Superb" "Fantastic" are over the top and I'm disagreeing strongly with them.
1. He's got good pace, he's not lightning quick by any strech of the imagination.
2. Sublime? Careful using those superlatives.
3. Not nearly enough is my argument.
England aren't a testament to class. Zaha, Sterling being included at this early stage demonstrates this. Aside from Rooney, who doesn't perform on the national stage, England don't have a top class forward. That's why it's being rotated with Carroll, Welbeck and Defoe.
He's played up front as well this season. I'd love if someone could post his positional stats for this season. I doubt he's played out wide as some of you guys think.
I just don't think it's typical of the majority of football supporters to sit, one hand on a cane, sipping on a sherry in a top hat, perusing statistics through a monacle like you and your friends down the gentleman's club obviously do. I can't remember the last time I had a debate about football without somebody getting called a fecking bellend (or words to that effect), so needless to say I'm certainly not about to become outraged by the prospect of such indignation.
Is it because you and your mates are fecking bellends?
Welbellends
See that's actually funny and not just a rehash of a Jim Davidson stand up routine. It's not outrage at name calling, its just tedious to the point of mind numbing be ause there's no humour with it.
I like how you only have two modes of conversation though, the upper class Victorian setting you described above or the bellend argument. There is actually a massive bit in the middle where normals reside.
Having said all that, it's those who want other posters to stop debating that are worse. If we didn't have Lynk in this thread it would just be post after post of 'he's playing well, just needs to score more.' Who wants that?
I have looked up all the stats for you guys to help you settle the argument
1: Everton - CF - 67 Mins
2: Fulham - Wing - Came on for last 23 mins
3: Southampton - CF - Played 70 mins
4: Wigan - CF moved to wing after 70 - Played 90
5: Galatasary - CF - Played 10 mins
6: Liverpool - CF - Played 5 mins
7: Newcastle - Wing moved to CF on 70 - Played 90
8: Tottenham - Wing - Played 15 mins
9: Cluj - CF - Played 10 mins
10: Newcastle - Wing - 90 Mins
11: Stoke - Wing - 77mins
12: Braga - UNUSED SUB
13: Chelsea - UNUSED SUB
14: Chelsea - CF - 98 Mins
15: Braga - Wing - 63 mins
16: Aston Villa - UNUSED SUB
17: Norwich - CF - Played 20
18: Gala - CF - Played 85 mins
19: QPR - Wing - Played 80 Mins
20: West Ham - Wing - Played 15 mins
21: Reading - CF - Played 20 mins
22: Cluj - CF 70 mins/Wing 20 mins - Played 90 mins
23: Man City - Wing - Played 5 mins
24: Sunderland - UNUSED SUB
25: Swansea - UNUSED SUB
26: West Brom - CF - 90 Mins
27: Wigan - Wing - 15 mins
28: West Ham - CF - Played 90 mins
EDIT:
He has spent around
500 minutes playing Wing and 725 minutes playing CF - But that does not take into account that it depends of how much of each was played in a single game, for example, a 100 5 minute appearances against a long match lasting 100 mins would be quite biased, but there is the stats for you guys
1: Everton - CF - 67 Mins
2: Fulham - Wing - Came on for last 23 mins
3: Southampton - CF - Played 70 mins
4: Wigan - CF moved to wing after 70 - Played 90
5: Galatasary - CF - Played 10 mins
6: Liverpool - CF - Played 5 mins
7: Newcastle - Wing moved to CF on 70 - Played 90
8: Tottenham - Wing - Played 15 mins
9: Cluj - CF - Played 10 mins
10: Newcastle - Wing - 90 Mins
11: Stoke - Wing - 77mins
12: Braga - UNUSED SUB
13: Chelsea - UNUSED SUB
14: Chelsea - CF - 98 Mins
15: Braga - Wing - 63 mins
16: Aston Villa - UNUSED SUB
17: Norwich - CF - Played 20
18: Gala - CF - Played 85 mins
19: QPR - Wing - Played 80 Mins
20: West Ham - Wing - Played 15 mins
21: Reading - CF - Played 20 mins
22: Cluj - CF 70 mins/Wing 20 mins - Played 90 mins
23: Man City - Wing - Played 5 mins
24: Sunderland - UNUSED SUB
25: Swansea - UNUSED SUB
26: West Brom - CF - 90 Mins
27: Wigan - Wing - 15 mins
28: West Ham - CF - Played 90 mins
EDIT:
He has spent around
500 minutes playing Wing and 725 minutes playing CF - But that does not take into account that it depends of how much of each was played in a single game, for example, a 100 5 minute appearances against a long match lasting 100 mins would be quite biased, but there is the stats for you guys
He's only not featured in five games out of twenty-eight then. Testament to the faith SAF has in him as a player.
Was quite suprised too tbh, I didn't think he played half that much... (There was a few England games I took out of the stats as its referring to Manchester United appearances so-)
Also the trend was he started as a CF, got two 90 mins games then he slowly transitions to the wing only to recently have been played mainly again up front....
I'm very excited about Welbeck; it's difficult to fault his achievements in transition from youth to senior striker and England international. Brilliant player.
Fantastic work Jay, I knew him supposedly playing mostly out of position was largely exaggerated.
I have to be honest and admit, I agree he is a top player and hasn't had a brilliant season but did not think by any means that A) He had that much game time or B) Played that much as a CF - Suprising.. Still not worried in slightest, RVP was going to slow him down a little bit progression wise but he could be stronger in the long term because of working with better players, you don't want players to peak too young...
His stats for England are actually quite interesting. 5 goals in 8(4) games since last summer. His stats for England u21s are quite similar. He drops deep significantly less for England, at times they've used him as something very close to a traditional no.9. Much more so that we ever did, even last season.
Potentially, I think Will Keane will overtake Welbeck, at least at United.
Welbeck has dazzling skills and his interplay can be delightful to watch, I think his control needs to be more consistent though.
I'm just wondering at what point can we be certain just how good he is, especially as SAF regularly refers to the fact that Welbeck is still developing physically.
Interesting if it's true that Lewandowski is on his way...and the impact on the likes of Welbeck and Chicharito.
Welbeck has dazzling skills and his interplay can be delightful to watch, I think his control needs to be more consistent though.
I'm just wondering at what point can we be certain just how good he is, especially as SAF regularly refers to the fact that Welbeck is still developing physically.
Interesting if it's true that Lewandowski is on his way...and the impact on the likes of Welbeck and Chicharito.
I agree. Good lad is Danny, one of the most exciting players to come through the acadamy for a while.
Whatever said and done, 1 goal in 15 games (22 overall) is a very poor return, even if the striker is a developing one or being played out. I think he should have had more than just 1 single goal this season. That too when Fergie laid down the marker for him to get 20 goals this season.
This is true but we still need to consider when he will reach a level of consistent good play and a healthy goal return...or indeed, IF he will ever reach that point. Certainly it is too early to be sure, even for SAF.
I have said before though, that the fact that Welbeck is now first choice No.9 for England says a lot about the lack of quality English strikers.
I have looked up all the stats for you guys to help you settle the argument
1: Everton - CF - 67 Mins
2: Fulham - Wing - Came on for last 23 mins
3: Southampton - CF - Played 70 mins
4: Wigan - CF moved to wing after 70 - Played 90
5: Galatasary - CF - Played 10 mins
6: Liverpool - CF - Played 5 mins
7: Newcastle - Wing moved to CF on 70 - Played 90
8: Tottenham - Wing - Played 15 mins
9: Cluj - CF - Played 10 mins
10: Newcastle - Wing - 90 Mins
11: Stoke - Wing - 77mins
12: Braga - UNUSED SUB
13: Chelsea - UNUSED SUB
14: Chelsea - CF - 98 Mins
15: Braga - Wing - 63 mins
16: Aston Villa - UNUSED SUB
17: Norwich - CF - Played 20
18: Gala - CF - Played 85 mins
19: QPR - Wing - Played 80 Mins
20: West Ham - Wing - Played 15 mins
21: Reading - CF - Played 20 mins
22: Cluj - CF 70 mins/Wing 20 mins - Played 90 mins
23: Man City - Wing - Played 5 mins
24: Sunderland - UNUSED SUB
25: Swansea - UNUSED SUB
26: West Brom - CF - 90 Mins
27: Wigan - Wing - 15 mins
28: West Ham - CF - Played 90 mins
EDIT:
He has spent around
500 minutes playing Wing and 725 minutes playing CF - But that does not take into account that it depends of how much of each was played in a single game, for example, a 100 5 minute appearances against a long match lasting 100 mins would be quite biased, but there is the stats for you guys
not going through them all but you are wrong with the first and third ones, so I'd guess you'll be wrong with most of the games you have him playing as a striker.
Against Everton Rooney played as the striker with Kagawa off of him- Welbeck played left wing, but there was a little bit of interchange, I guess.
Against Southampton is was Van Persie and Kagawa upfront, Welbeck left wing.
It's not exclusive to debate and it doesn't have to be from your mates. I meant "bellend" by the way.
If you look on this forum, there are a plethora of differing opinions and personalities and sometimes when you've had a bit too much to drink, you say some things you usually would not. Sometimes fellow United fans (probably a rarity now) clash for whatever reason and it results in name-calling and insults.
It happened not too long ago.
There was one bloke who said something along the likes of, "Sir Alex is a cnut. Taking money that's meant to be for our club." (regarding the IPO)
Then a lad piped up, "Shut up ye fecking wanker. Sir Alex has contributed more towards United than you could in your lifetime. Our club could use less bellends like you. How about you watch the fecking news. He said he's not getting anything from the IPO. 'kinell "
"He's a cnut! He said we aren't real fans. Imagine that. Mancunians aren't real fans. We need less Fergie and Glazer apologists like you soaking up their every word!"
If there was any a time in recent history where I would say I was slightly concerned about our fanbase, that whole IPO nonsense certainly was such a time.
No offense Jaybezia, but I'm not sure how you've settled the argument if some of your stats aren't correct (i.e. Southampton).
That is actually true. Even in the games where he has played 'up front' this season he's normally played with Hernandez, so was forced into the second striker/attacking midfielder role, but he has played mostly as a winger- especially in the league.
Its hard to define looking back at match reports, especially with the interchangeability of roles nowadays, that was complied through ESPN where basically I have tried each game to fathom where he was playing from the XI, but granted there will definitely be exceptions, if anyone could pinpoint me to a site that displays what position he played exactly, I would be happy to do the horse work, I thought this was good enough tbf, but if there are that many inaccuracies then fair enough
From next season we should keep some sort of database detailing a few basic things (Which if you do as you go, will take minimal time) such as Position played, the rating (Obviously averaged out from people's votes), playing time etc as it may help so many of these arguements, there is always something, whether its being out of position or playing with a weaker team etc etc
You want to head that effort?
About the Southampton game, even though he interchanged, Welbeck was mostly on the wing. Not sure where they got CF from. He was a wide forward at the most.
About the Southampton game, even though he interchanged, Welbeck was mostly on the wing. Not sure where they got CF from. He was a wide forward at the most.
Ah ok, well humble pie eaten, and yea would be happy to if people are bothered about using it, should I start it from next season or try do it from now onwards? Any more suggestions as to information captured?
Well let me know if you guys are up for and I will do, its up to you
Make me a sandwich and I'll think about giving you further instructions.
Made, next. Am I winning?
Right but I assume you see the difference between a bloke calling SAF a cnut and Lynk not rating Welbeck as highly as you or I do. The argument you've described above isn't really about football, it's just a bloke making a personal attack on the manager. Lynks offering an opinion on how good Welbeck is and as far as I can see he's done it in a constructive manner. So you wouldnt expect the same response to the given scenarios.
I doubt Lynks offended and nor me, it's the 'move on' line that baffles me. Does Jake not want debate and does he think Lynk will actually leave it there because he said so. It's not just him to be fair, but it just especially illogical given he barely posts in the FF.
"It's illogical!"
I must be missing something, what's so funny that it's made you laugh at your own post?
Actually, it is fair enough to say 'move on' if somebody is trapped in an endless circular argument without actually contributing more than their own opinion based on their own judgement- there is no way to change that, if they won't accept evidence to the contrary of their opinion but won't leave the thread.
It's very easy to not know when you've made your point and to move on- I've done it myself a few times, there is nothing wrong with someone pointing it out.
Debate is about proposing a position, and substantiating it- it doesn't work when one side is obtuse and refuses to accept evidence that their position is wrong, without countering with their own evidence.
For example, Lynk says Welbeck isn't scoring enough goals, I said he is playing as a winger and is as productive as our other wingers, that is countered by Jaybezia contesting that he has played as a winger using his own research, and I say that his analysis is incorrect is good constructive debate that is progressing.
Lynk saying that 'if anyone mentions he is playing as a winger that he will get a shotgun' and that while Welbeck's passing is ok his dribbling is like this
is not constructive and only gets people annoyed.
This thread has been locked, or threatened to be locked multiple times, this is Redcafe, not RAWK debate hardly ever gets stopped.. and it's all because of circular arguments, so it's fine to tell people to move on in those circumstances.
It's very easy to not know when you've made your point and to move on- I've done it myself a few times, there is nothing wrong with someone pointing it out.
Debate is about proposing a position, and substantiating it- it doesn't work when one side is obtuse and refuses to accept evidence that their position is wrong, without countering with their own evidence.
For example, Lynk says Welbeck isn't scoring enough goals, I said he is playing as a winger and is as productive as our other wingers, that is countered by Jaybezia contesting that he has played as a winger using his own research, and I say that his analysis is incorrect is good constructive debate that is progressing.
Lynk saying that 'if anyone mentions he is playing as a winger that he will get a shotgun' and that while Welbeck's passing is ok his dribbling is like this
This thread has been locked, or threatened to be locked multiple times, this is Redcafe, not RAWK debate hardly ever gets stopped.. and it's all because of circular arguments, so it's fine to tell people to move on in those circumstances.
He mightn't lose the ball that much in passing but he frequently loses it when one of his dribbles turns into something like this
...
Actually, it is fair enough to say 'move on' if somebody is trapped in an endless circular argument without actually contributing more than their own opinion based on their own judgement- there is no way to change that, if they won't accept evidence to the contrary of their opinion but won't leave the thread.
It's very easy to not know when you've made your point and to move on- I've done it myself a few times, there is nothing wrong with someone pointing it out.
Debate is about proposing a position, and substantiating it- it doesn't work when one side is obtuse and refuses to accept evidence that their position is wrong, without countering with their own evidence.
For example, Lynk says Welbeck isn't scoring enough goals, I said he is playing as a winger and is as productive as our other wingers, that is countered by Jaybezia contesting that he has played as a winger using his own research, and I say that his analysis is incorrect is good constructive debate that is progressing.
Lynk saying that 'if anyone mentions he is playing as a winger that he will get a shotgun' and that while Welbeck's passing is ok his dribbling is like this
is not constructive and only gets people annoyed.
This thread has been locked, and threatened to be locked multiple times, this is Redcafe, not RAWK debate hardly ever gets stopped.. and it's all because of circular arguments, so it's fine to tell people to move on in those circumstances.
He's not arguing on his own though, if others like yourself are still debating with him aren't you just as much to blame(there is no blame IMO, I don't really see a problem).
I still don't get why you want him to stop, what would you have in its place, endless statements of agreeance? Silence?
The video seems like a joke to me, if that's the most insulting thing you could pull out of Lynks mountain of posts on the topic then I think it's far outweighed by the rest of his reasonable(if incorrect) points.
Do you actually think he's saying reasonable things or are you just saying that to act like the 'voice of impartial reason'?
You know what his response was to my stats about how productive our wide players have been in the league? To say 'Evra and Evans both have 4 goals, so what?' Very reasonable there.
Anyway, this thread is about Welbeck, not Lynk or me or you. So let's agree to get back on topic.
You know what his response was to my stats about how productive our wide players have been in the league? To say 'Evra and Evans both have 4 goals, so what?' Very reasonable there.
Anyway, this thread is about Welbeck, not Lynk or me or you. So let's agree to get back on topic.
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