Dan "The Gardener" Ashworth Has Left | Venit, vidit, non vicit

[devilish]

This looks bad on both Ashworth and the club which in turn will lead to a Tsunami of half truths, gross exaggerations and things taken out of context from both sides as damage control. There's nothing wrong with Ashworth going for

a- EPL proven managers. ETH had no EPL experience and he saddled us with a squad with no athleticism whatsoever. We simply lack the budget to have another manager bringing in midget defenders only to learn from his mistakes later on
b- using external data analysts to gauge whether Amorim is good. Ashworth is not a Data analyst himself and Its evident that the in house people (those hired by Murtough) aren't very bright.
c- taking a holiday on Amorim's day 2. If the club was against it then it should have blocked it. Since it didn't then its evident that it wasn't against it

I won't go into Ashworth's involvement on transfers, keeping ETH or selling players. The guy joined the club in July and by that time most if not all decisions has been already taken.

That doesn't mean that he was perfect. The irony is that the biggest mistake he did (when he sent United's correspondence to a Newcastle email by mistake) wasn't even highlighted yet. That was silly and stupid as it strengthened Newcastle hand when dealing with us on compensation.

If you ask me this was a mess from upstairs.

A- Its never a good idea to first hire a football CEO and then choose the SD on his behalf. CEO is there to take the big decisions and choosing the SD is the biggest decision a football CEO can take
B- Someone misunderstood what Ashworth brings on the table. The guy is known to oversee everything and make sure that every department is working efficiently both as a unit and together. Guys like that cannot be expected to have a direct impact on things such as choosing the next manager or making the right signings. They will consult the people in place (most of the time people they hired) and they will get back to you
C- ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY. It takes time to build the football infrastructure needed to turn things around at United

Which reminds me of the disastrous 2022-2023 season at Nice FC ie the season Brailsford took over, he hired Iain Moody as consultant and they saddled Nice with a horde of washed up EPL players not even the manager knew about. That lead to a disastrous season followed by NICE hiring a new CEO and DOF only for the latter to jump ship a year later. Honestly I still don't understand why SJR thinks its a good idea to have a cyclist meddling into football.

 

[Oranges038]

This from the Guardian might have something to do with his departure:

"Ashworth had reservations about switching to Amorim’s 3-4-3 formation as he wanted a consistent style, regardless of who was in the dugout, to aid with long-term recruitment strategy, which was a source of tension."

Are his reservations well founded?

Sound like the most logical explanation. I can see the long term downside of building a squad for 343.

You're kind of limiting yourself to specific types of players for the wing back and two no.10 roles. And those players might not be able to adapt to a 433 shift or 4231 etc.

 

[RedDevil@84]

That is a very simplistic view... that means every time a manager doesn't work out, the structure who hired him is sacked?

That is not my point. Doesn't really matter if its sackable or not.

A failed recruitment, especially that had so much background work done (for a year), interviews and a fight with Newcastle over gardening leave, and then sacking him within just 5 months, reflects poorly on the competency of the decision makers.
I am just arguing against spinning the whole thing as a positive or a win for the club admins. It is not.

Edit: As I have already mentioned, I am also arguing that "Ashworth has been fired because of being poor at his job" is also an assumption and not a fact.

 

[Lentwood]

This is not a good look for Jim, he didn't make his billions by fecking up like this, it's an egg on face moment. Let's not spin it into something it's not.

No, the point is, you don't have to get every decisions correct to be a success, but what you do have to do is be ruthless and move on from mistakes quickly.

In a Utopian world, you'd get every single decision right but that's not reality.

 

[romufc]

That is not my point. Doesn't really matter if its sackable or not.

A failed recruitment, especially that had so much background work done (for a year), interviews and a fight with Newcastle over gardening leave, and then sacking him within just 5 months, reflects poorly on the competency of the decision makers.
I am just arguing against spinning the whole thing as a positive or a win for the club admins. It is not.

No one is saying its a win. I have read that SJR has come out in an interview and actually said they have made a couple errors so far. They are accepting they have made mistakes, which is better than them thinking it will turn for the better.

I rather someone make a mistake, realise is and rectify it rather than think it will get better over time. Which is the reason we are here in the first place.

Ashworth has shown in his CV and previous roles of the work he can do, he came to United and it didn't work for both parties.

We move on and find another solution and hopefully that works out.

 

[crossy1686]

Sound like the most logical explanation. I can see the long term downside of building a squad for 343.

You're kind of limiting yourself to specific types of players for the wing back and two no.10 roles. And those players might not be able to adapt to a 433 shift or 4231 etc.

What's the long term side effects?

 

[romufc]

No, the point is, you don't have to get every decisions correct to be a success, but what you do have to do is be ruthless and move on from mistakes quickly.

In a Utopian world, you'd get every single decision right but that's not reality.

This. They realised the decision they made was not working out, so he is out the door. Its better than keeping and hoping it works out.

The fact that they dont care about the optics is a good sign, they want to succeed here.

 

[SuperiorXI]

No, the point is, you don't have to get every decisions correct to be a success, but what you do have to do is be ruthless and move on from mistakes quickly.

In a Utopian world, you'd get every single decision right but that's not reality.

Yeah, you're right, but this is a bad mistake when you look at the context. He's not accidently left the toilet seat down. His leadership is costing the club right now and it is his responsibility.

 

[devilish]

This from the Guardian might have something to do with his departure:

"Ashworth had reservations about switching to Amorim’s 3-4-3 formation as he wanted a consistent style, regardless of who was in the dugout, to aid with long-term recruitment strategy, which was a source of tension."

Are his reservations well founded?

Yes and No

United had switched to counterattacking football 2-3 years before SAF left. We haven't been able to go past that since this very day. Now the money well is drying up, a big chunk of our team is tied in on long term contracts and they are unsuited for the 3-4-3 system.

However its also true that most of these players are not good enough and should be sold. Sure that's going to be tough but that's why INEOS had invested so much on best of class people to run the football side of things. If they wanted a SD who just claps at Rashford while he jogs around the pitch then they might as well have kept Murtough.

 

[dubplate warrior]

I respect the decision to be fair.

People have got into relationships that haven't worked out before, the pros outweighed the cons at the time. It's not worked out and we got rid, I have no issues with moving on whatever we think doesn't work in practice. Optics are just that, optics.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

It's also very possible the club made a shitload of recruitments in the executive positions by design, knowing not all of them would stick. You're trying to restructure and revamp the entire culture of the company, and some of your recruitments might not make it. It's quite common in the corporate world with some people recruited at high prices and not finally making the cut, it's not particularly shocking.

It's going to be sensationalized and dramatized cos it's Utd, but if he just wasn't working out, then it's the right decision, and a rather mundane one if anything.

 

[gaffs]

I think the 3421 has been exaggerated. Chelsea switched to it in November under conte and ended up winning the league.

You don’t need specialist players. You just need players who can follow instructions. Look at Young & Valencia they’d make great WB.

It is not just about following instructions. It is about the right attributes to play that position.

I agree. Young & Valencia would be great, but you're picking out top tier players. Both excellent wingers before they came to United so the attacking side of the game came naturally.

Amad has done well so far, but do we see him getting to anywhere near Valencia's level in terms of being able to attack and defend? Does he have that amazing stamina and strength that Valencia did?

This is why i don't think Amad is the long term solution at wing back. He could end up being the 10. Look at how Trincao plays for Sporting. Amad is closer to him than being a wing back.

The players in the other positions are no different to any other formation. Your two 10s ideally you’d want 1 like a Odegard and one like a Saka.

Yeah, cool. Just casually bring in a Odegard and a Saka!

The thread is about Ashworth and the original point is that we were building for a 433 and now looking for to fit square pegs into round holes, at least until the summer window.

The quality of the players we have, and have signed over the window are questionable, but the task has been made even harder by changing to a coach who employs a new system.

Take Rashford and Garnacho. Lets just say a 433 coach comes in and he gets the very, very best out of them, then you can see a role for them in the system.

Amorim comes in with a 3421 and with the best will in the world, it it hard to see a role for them - even when playing at their best. When you look at Sporting, they are not the profile Amorim had in Trincao and Goncalves for the 10 positions.

This may have been Ashworths point.

 

[gaffs]

I respect the decision to be fair.

People have got into relationships that haven't worked out before, the pros outweighed the cons at the time. It's not worked out and we got rid, I have no issues with moving on whatever we think doesn't work in practice. Optics are just that, optics.

Agree. If it is not working, end it.

People talking about the 2 or 3 million we paid, but much more has been wasted on crap players over the years.

You are right, optics are embarrassing but it will be forgotten about in time.

 

[Oranges038]

What's the long term side effects?

For a start.

If you focus on players to suit a back 3, you may end up struggling to move to a back 4. As we have seen with Maguire, he was apparently more used to back 3 but has struggled in a 2 for Utd.

If you buy specialised wide players for the purpose of playing wing back they end up not being suited to a changed to a more conventional 433, defensively they will probably be lacking and going forward they're probably not good enough to play as wing forwards.

You're also excluding your squad from having naturally attacking wide forwards, because you're looking for 2 10s to play inside.

The only positions that maybe won't be an issue are probably centre midfield and centre forwards.

People may think otherwise, but I think if you base your squad preparations on 433, then decide to changed to 343/3421 a few months later, then all the previous work of scouting and looking for players for a 433 has been wasted.

 

[romufc]

It's also very possible the club made a shitload of recruitments in the executive positions by design, knowing not all of them would stick. You're trying to restructure and revamp the entire culture of the company, and some of your recruitments might not make it. It's quite common in the corporate world with some people recruited at high prices and not finally making the cut, it's not particularly shocking.

It's going to be sensationalized and dramatized cos it's Utd, but if he just wasn't working out, then it's the right decision, and a rather mundane one if anything.

This is what alot are failing to understand. We have hired 5/6 personnel in the executive positions. Look at Ashworth's background, he was able to build the structure where he went and he came to United, alot of new faces, alot of them trying to assert their dominance.

Berrada is obviously the main man, it seems like Ashworth felt marginalized as there are so many directors. We may not need a sporting director considering how many different people we have.

There is no shame in recognizing a mistake and rectifying it. This also sends a message to everyone at the club, perform or you are on the chopping block.

 

[mitchmouse]

I think that's exactly it. Look at Amad: playing a new position and actually playing very well because he's not only skilled, but also has a functioning brain and works his socks off. Contrast that with the likes of Garnacho, Dalot, Rashford, and Bruno.

Not sure it's fair to lump Garno in with that lots - works very hard (although can't vouch for the brain) and is often our main threat

 

[Rooney in Paris]

This is what alot are failing to understand. We have hired 5/6 personnel in the executive positions. Look at Ashworth's background, he was able to build the structure where he went and he came to United, alot of new faces, alot of them trying to assert their dominance.

Berrada is obviously the main man, it seems like Ashworth felt marginalized as there are so many directors. We may not need a sporting director considering how many different people we have.

There is no shame in recognizing a mistake and rectifying it. This also sends a message to everyone at the club, perform or you are on the chopping block.

Could be the bolded, or could simply be that Ashworth isn't the right guy. I was surprised at the decision at first, but after taking a step back and thinking about it, it really reads as "executive in large corporation isn't working out, loses job".

 

[V.O.]

I don't see how the formation thing is such a big deal at all. It's not a different sport. Some players will suit their new roles more than they did in the 4-2-3-1, others will be worse, most about the same.

The much bigger change is us going from everybody running forwards and kicking it long in the general direction of a wide forward as soon as we get the ball to a more patient buildup with different positioning and movement.

 

[JediSith]

It is not just about following instructions. It is about the right attributes to play that position.

I agree. Young & Valencia would be great, but you're picking out top tier players. Both excellent wingers before they came to United so the attacking side of the game came naturally.

Amad has done well so far, but do we see him getting to anywhere near Valencia's level in terms of being able to attack and defend? Does he have that amazing stamina and strength that Valencia did?

This is why i don't think Amad is the long term solution at wing back. He could end up being the 10. Look at how Trincao plays for Sporting. Amad is closer to him than being a wing back.



Yeah, cool. Just casually bring in a Odegard and a Saka!

The thread is about Ashworth and the original point is that we were building for a 433 and now looking for to fit square pegs into round holes, at least until the summer window.

The quality of the players we have, and have signed over the window are questionable, but the task has been made even harder by changing to a coach who employs a new system.

Take Rashford and Garnacho. Lets just say a 433 coach comes in and he gets the very, very best out of them, then you can see a role for them in the system.

Amorim comes in with a 3421 and with the best will in the world, it it hard to see a role for them - even when playing at their best. When you look at Sporting, they are not the profile Amorim had in Trincao and Goncalves for the 10 positions.

This may have been Ashworths point.

I was using Odegard and Saka as the type of profiles. At United that could be Bruno:Mount & Amad:Garnacho.

With the exception of WB, the rest of the positions are really not alien to football.
The 3 CB are the same , they just have to learn spacing and LCB & RCB need to learn to cover the FB spaces more often.

People are acting like you need a new bunch of players and it’s a completely different sport. Look how many wingers adapt to fb, or how many wingers become forwards.

 

[gaffs]

I would say he's been pretty close to stellar - he has what 3-4 assists already during the time he's played there.

The dictionary definition of stellar, in this context, means "exceptionally good; outstanding".

He has started 3 games sine Amorim came in. Caf ratings in those games are 7, 8.7 and Forest tbd but unlikely to be higher than a 7. The Caf ranked his sub appearances as a 5.8 and a 6.

That is not stellar. If Amad has been stella, what would is Mo Salah or Cole Palmer?

He has done well. He is the best of a bad bunch.

 

[MF1138]

At least we won't have to listen to any more stories about him selling Gyokeres for £1million

 

[astracrazy]

What the hell are you on about?

I never said Berrada isn't qualified to make the call. My reference was in regards to a rumoured power struggle between Ashworth and Berrada on football matters.

How some of you newbies got to the main forum I have no idea.

Perhaps review what you wrote first, because I'm not defining if he is qualified or not. I never mentioned it. I'm telling you how the Athletic explained it which suggests you are talking nonsense.

"Berrada wants to be the big dawg in regards to football matters and his first play was Amorim"

Poor take. So I explained why. Absolutely no evidence Berrada wants to be the "top dawg" on football matters. Ashworth wasn't up to the job (as it turns out in more ways than one) and didn't meet the expectations of SJR so Berrada handled it - which is his job.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The dictionary definition of stellar, in this context, means "exceptionally good; outstanding".

He has started 3 games sine Amorim came in. Caf ratings in those games are 7, 8.7 and Forest tbd but unlikely to be higher than a 7. The Caf ranked his sub appearances as a 5.8 and a 6.

That is not stellar. If Amad has been stella, what would is Mo Salah or Cole Palmer?

He has done well. He is the best of a bad bunch.

He's the third most assists in the whole of the Premier League. Behind Salah and Saka. And he doesn't take set pieces. Playing for a mid table team, supplying not very good strikers.

You can argue the toss about what "stellar" means all day but you're clearly wrong to imply Amad is just the best of a bad bunch.

 

[gaffs]

I was using Odegard and Saka as the type of profiles. At United that could be Bruno:Mount & Amad:Garnacho.

With the exception of WB, the rest of the positions are really not alien to football.
The 3 CB are the same , they just have to learn spacing and LCB & RCB need to learn to cover the FB spaces more often.

People are acting like you need a new bunch of players and it’s a completely different sport. Look how many wingers adapt to fb, or how many wingers become forwards.

Watch this on Sporting and then tell me honestly who in our squad can fit into the key roles.....



A central CB that is playing like a QB and distributing the ball to the wingbacks. He is also expected to come into midfield.
Two tens that are involved in intricate interplay (and don't tell me Bruno because the guy wants to hold on to the ball as long as he can).
Wingbacks with stamina that can attack as well as they can defend.
A forward that can hold the ball up, as well as be a goal threat.

 

[gaffs]

He's the third most assists in the whole of the Premier League. Behind Salah and Saka. And he doesn't take set pieces. Playing for a mid table team, supplying not very good strikers.

You can argue the toss about what "stellar" means all day but you're clearly wrong to imply Amad is just the best of a bad bunch.

Stellar is the point. To describe someone as such would mean he has been outstanding.

His Caf rating for the season is 6.1. So obviously not stella or outstanding.

I didn't say he has been "JUST" the best of the bad lot.

I said...

He has done well. He is the best of a bad bunch.

Is that not true?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Stellar is the point. To describe someone as such would mean he he has been outstanding.

I didn't say he has been "JUST" the best of the bad lot.

I said...


Is that not true?

If you want to be literal, then yes he is the best of a bad bunch. Same would apply to Lamina Yamal if he had been at United.

But it’s incredibly weak praise for a footballer who has been one of the best creative players in the league so far this season.

 

[Grande]

I respect the decision to be fair.

People have got into relationships that haven't worked out before, the pros outweighed the cons at the time. It's not worked out and we got rid, I have no issues with moving on whatever we think doesn't work in practice. Optics are just that, optics.

Optics are just optics


That’s gonna be my t-shirt text for everyone’s Christmas gift this year

 

[Skills]

I think the British sporting directors like Murtough and Ashworth are co-ordinators and play a more administrative role. They help run the club day to day.

The European ones are more decisive and more influential. Under senior management's remit, they'll drive more of the decision making - and often they actually end up falling out with head coaches, as they're often treading on their toes and asking more of them. Ratcliffe and co probably expected someone along those lines.

Interestingly enough, Begiristain is leaving City at the end of this season. Berarda might be lining him up to jump ship

 

[gaffs]

If you want to be literal, then yes he is the best of a bad bunch. Same would apply to Lamina Yamal if he had been at United.

Im not sure about that. A pre season and 4 months under Ten Hag and even the best players could end up looking bang average.

But it’s incredibly weak praise for a footballer who has been one of the best creative players in the league so far this season.

No weak praise. He has done really well, especially in the context of being asked to play at wing back. Everyone but Ten Hag knew he should have been given more game time and im glad we are seeing it.

I know we all want to be optimistic on The Caf about the smallest thing, like the "we are back" reaction to beating a hapless Everton side 4-0 - of which Amad took full benefit of.

I think the same goes for Amad. Describing his performances as "stella" this season, when he has only started 3 games under Amorim and only one of which he won POTM for is just over the top for me. No knock on Amad, just the usual Caf overreaction.

 

[OldTrevil]

It's better to make a tough decision now than letting it linger. The optics are not good definitely, but they should never be a factor in such a structurally key decision anyway.

 

[gaffs]

This looks bad on both Ashworth and the club which in turn will lead to a Tsunami of half truths, gross exaggerations and things taken out of context from both sides as damage control. There's nothing wrong with Ashworth going for

a- EPL proven managers. ETH had no EPL experience and he saddled us with a squad with no athleticism whatsoever. We simply lack the budget to have another manager bringing in midget defenders only to learn from his mistakes later on
b- using external data analysts to gauge whether Amorim is good. Ashworth is not a Data analyst himself and Its evident that the in house people (those hired by Murtough) aren't very bright.
c- taking a holiday on Amorim's day 2. If the club was against it then it should have blocked it. Since it didn't then its evident that it wasn't against it

I won't go into Ashworth's involvement on transfers, keeping ETH or selling players. The guy joined the club in July and by that time most if not all decisions has been already taken.

That doesn't mean that he was perfect. The irony is that the biggest mistake he did (when he sent United's correspondence to a Newcastle email by mistake) wasn't even highlighted yet. That was silly and stupid as it strengthened Newcastle hand when dealing with us on compensation.

If you ask me this was a mess from upstairs.

A- Its never a good idea to first hire a football CEO and then choose the SD on his behalf. CEO is there to take the big decisions and choosing the SD is the biggest decision a football CEO can take
B- Someone misunderstood what Ashworth brings on the table. The guy is known to oversee everything and make sure that every department is working efficiently both as a unit and together. Guys like that cannot be expected to have a direct impact on things such as choosing the next manager or making the right signings. They will consult the people in place (most of the time people they hired) and they will get back to you
C- ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY. It takes time to build the football infrastructure needed to turn things around at United

Which reminds me of the disastrous 2022-2023 season at Nice FC ie the season Brailsford took over, he hired Iain Moody as consultant and they saddled Nice with a horde of washed up EPL players not even the manager knew about. That lead to a disastrous season followed by NICE hiring a new CEO and DOF only for the latter to jump ship a year later. Honestly I still don't understand why SJR thinks its a good idea to have a cyclist meddling into football.

Really good point here. It should have been for Berrada to pick the Sporting Director.

It feels like Ratcliffe and Brailsford picked Athworth because he was "big name" for the role. Two guys with limited experience in football picking the Sporting Director. Not the best decision when you have Berrada incoming who would have been able to scope out the requirements for the SD role and pick the right person.

And your point B. It feels like there was too much crossover between the CEO and SD roles in terms of how both Berrada and Ashworth see them.

Agree on Brailsford. I don't know how involved he is in the decision making, or if Ratcliffe just uses him as his eyes and ears on the ground. As well as to voice Ratcliffes opinion.

 

[JediSith]

Watch this on Sporting and then tell me honestly who in our squad can fit into the key roles.....



A central CB that is playing like a QB and distributing the ball to the wingbacks. He is also expected to come into midfield.
Two tens that are involved in intricate interplay (and don't tell me Bruno because the guy wants to hold on to the ball as long as he can).
Wingbacks with stamina that can attack as well as they can defend.
A forward that can hold the ball up, as well as be a goal threat.

None of those things are exclusive to a 3421 formation.

If you play a 433 or 442, you want FB’s who can attack as well as they can defend. You want at least one ball playing CB, you want a number 10 who keeps possession and is intricate around the final 3rd. And of course you want a forward who is a goal threat and can either hold up the ball or can interplay with those around him.

Thats my point. The actual formation doesn’t require a completely different type of player from a 433.

If Dan was identifying FB for ETH and then Amorim came in nothing would change. He wouldn’t have to delete his database and start again. The FB he would have on his list would naturally be very fit, able to run up and down the wing, be able to defend and have good crossing / passing ability.

Look at the players at City, Liverpool , Arsenal pretty much every player fits that definition. Even at other teams you will have at least one FB, CB, who to varying ability, also meet that definition.

At United we have the CB’s. I agree on Bruno, arguable we need better FB/WB and play Amad further up. I think Rasmus is either gonna breakout and surprise many or just fade away.

 

[dubplate warrior]

Optics are just optics


That’s gonna be my t-shirt text for everyone’s Christmas gift this year

Ahead of your time mate.

 

[gaffs]

None of those things are exclusive to a 3421 formation.

If you play a 433 or 442, you want FB’s who can attack as well as they can defend. You want at least one ball playing CB, you want a number 10 who keeps possession and is intricate around the final 3rd. And of course you want a forward who is a goal threat and can either hold up the ball or can interplay with those around him.

Thats my point. The actual formation doesn’t require a completely different type of player from a 433.

I agree, you don't need a "completely different type of player", but for a fullback vs a wingback you do need to have players that have attributes that are stronger in some areas than others.

I believe Amorim will want a wingback that far stronger of an attacker than a defender. Pedro Porro was great for him at Sporting. Great going forward, ok as a defender. Quenda and Aaujo the same. These are wingers who can do a little defending.

Does Mazraoui, Dallot, Shaw have that balance in their game? I would say they are far more traditional full backs.

And that is not to say they wont be used as wingbacks for the time being, but i dont beleive they would be Amorim

If Dan was identifying FB for ETH and then Amorim came in nothing would change. He wouldn’t have to delete his database and start again. The FB he would have on his list would naturally be very fit, able to run up and down the wing, be able to defend and have good crossing / passing ability.

Did Dan even have a database? Wasn't that part of the issue?

There are very few players playing "wing back" in European football. If there is no fit in the current squad for what Amorim wants at RWB and LWB, then is a good chance he converts a winger into his wing back, as opposed to looking at fullbacks. Both Quenda and Aaujo at Sporting started as such.

Look at the players at City, Liverpool , Arsenal pretty much every player fits that definition. Even at other teams you will have at least one FB, CB, who to varying ability, also meet that definition.

Is that true? Who in the City squad would you play as a wing back? Kyle Walker is cooked and the rest of the defenders are CBs. Maybe Rico Lewis?

And laking of Liverpool, maybe a key reasons they didnt go for Amorim is because they felt it would be to much of a lift to go from 433 to 3421. Same for West Ham.

At United we have the CB’s. I agree on Bruno, arguable we need better FB/WB and play Amad further up. I think Rasmus is either gonna breakout and surprise many or just fade away.

Again, Sporting is the reference point and unless some of these player, Bruno including, really start to change the way they play, the wont be in Amorims plan. He will want players that fit the profiles of his Sporting players and im not optimistic we have many that can.

 

[Invictus]

This from the Guardian might have something to do with his departure:

"Ashworth had reservations about switching to Amorim’s 3-4-3 formation as he wanted a consistent style, regardless of who was in the dugout, to aid with long-term recruitment strategy, which was a source of tension."

Are his reservations well founded?

It's simply too early to say. Around this time next year we might have an answer. Because even our dumbdumbs should be able to learn the new system for that amount of time, and hopefully we'll get some smarter players who can play it aswell.

I mean it's a fair point, wing backs are more of a specialised role and I would argue the two attacking 10s require a particular type of player. Sign those specific type of players and if it doesn't work with Amorim, we go to a 433 and those players may become redundant.

Good players should be able to adapt but try a 343 with the City, Arsenal and even Liverpool squad and they would all need some specialist recruitment.

Sound like the most logical explanation. I can see the long term downside of building a squad for 343.

You're kind of limiting yourself to specific types of players for the wing back and two no.10 roles. And those players might not be able to adapt to a 433 shift or 4231 etc.

It's a bit of a non-issue, really. You might need to make a couple of signings to optimize certain positions, but even clubs with a consistent way of setting up tend to do that when they appoint a new manager or head coach.

We can conveniently use the example of Sporting CP. Here's how they would frequently line up in a 3—4—3 under Amorim...

Gyökeres
Pote—Trincão
Catamo—Morita—Hjulmand—Quenda
Inácio—Diomande—DeBast
Israel​

Here's how they might line up in a 4—3—3 under, for example, Arteta...

Pote—Gyökeres—Quenda
Morita—Trincão
Hjulmand
Inácio—Reis—Diomande—DeBast
Israel​

Another example, this time Bayer Leverkusen. Here's how they would frequently line up in a 3—4—3 under Alonso...

Boniface
Wirtz—Hofmann
Grimaldo—Xhaka—Andrich—Frimpong
Hincapie—Tah—Kossounou
Hrádecky​

Here's how they might line up in a 4—2—3—1 under, for example, Emery...

Boniface
Wirtz—Hofmann—Frimpong
Xhaka—Andrich
Grimaldo—Hincapié—Tah—Rightback
Hrádecky​

If you develop or recruit the right profile of players, adapting from a 3—4—3 to a 4—3—3 or 4—2—3—1 is quite straight-forward. And if Sporting CP and Bayer Leverkusen can construct squads with flexible players, so can Manchester United (in theory, if we get our act together with regard to transfer business.)

 

[DSG]

Not sure we can say Yoro, Ugarte and Maz were Ten Hag signings.
De Ligt seems likely, and maybe Zirkzee, but we're probably just assuming as he's dutch.

I think Maz, yes. An article just came out that Zirkzee, Yoro and Ugarte were Ashworth signings. But remember, Ten Hag still had veto power.

Still, not chosen specifically for a 3-4-2-1. Maz looks really good as a 3rd CB, and probably could do a job as RWB.

 

[Highfather_24]

None of those things are exclusive to a 3421 formation.

If Dan was identifying FB for ETH and then Amorim came in nothing would change. He wouldn’t have to delete his database and start again. The FB he would have on his list would naturally be very fit, able to run up and down the wing, be able to defend and have good crossing / passing ability.

Not necessarily true. Take Dalot for example. Perfect as an inverted RB. Not a wingback. Not a 3rd CB either.

Or Garnacho and Rashford. None of them fit the #10s role.

You're also excluding your squad from having naturally attacking wide forwards, because you're looking for 2 10s to play inside.

People may think otherwise, but I think if you base your squad preparations on 433, then decide to changed to 343/3421 a few months later, then all the previous work of scouting and looking for players for a 433 has been wasted.

Agreed.

 

[Highfather_24]

It's a bit of a non-issue, really. You might need to make a couple of signings to optimize certain positions, but even clubs with a consistent way of setting up tend to do that when they appoint a new manager or head coach.

We can conveniently use the example of Sporting CP. Here's how they would frequently line up in a 3—4—3 under Amorim...

Gyökeres
Pote—Trincão
Catamo—Morita—Hjulmand—Quenda
Inácio—Diomande—DeBast
Israel​

Here's how they might line up in a 4—3—3 under, for example, Arteta...

Pote—Gyökeres—Quenda
Morita—Trincão
Hjulmand
Inácio—Reis—Diomande—DeBast
Israel​

Another example, this time Bayer Leverkusen. Here's how they would frequently line up in a 3—4—3 under Alonso...

Boniface
Wirtz—Hofmann
Grimaldo—Xhaka—Andrich—Frimpong
Hincapie—Tah—Kossounou
Hrádecky​

Here's how they might line up in a 4—2—3—1 under, for example, Emery...

Boniface
Wirtz—Hofmann—Frimpong
Xhaka—Andrich
Grimaldo—Hincapié—Tah—Rightback
Hrádecky​

If you develop or recruit the right profile of players, adapting from a 3—4—3 to a 4—3—3 or 4—2—3—1 is quite straight-forward. And if Sporting CP and Bayer Leverkusen can construct squads with flexible players, so can Manchester United (in theory, if we get our act together with regard to transfer business.)

Good post, but a recurring theme here is one of the 10s being able to play both as a #10 and LW. Not sure Garnacho/Rashford is that profile of player. Someone like Hazard or Sancho sure. Are we gonna sell a youth product like Garnacho because he doesnt fit?

Another area is your RCB being able to play both RCB and RB. Mazraoui can do that. Can Dalot? Not sure.

 

[RDCR07]

 

[Ish]

Would would De Ligt be a Ten Hag signing and Mazraoui not? I dont get it.

In terms of CB numbers, yes we have a lot. But Maguire, Lindelof and Evans have contracts that expire at the end of the season. Martinez has injury issues. As does Maguire and Lindelof. I dont think it was a poor decision to sign two CBs over the summer.

And as i said previously, reports were that Zirkzee was not a ETH signing...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manutd-erik-tenhag-signing-zirkzee-34036269
How true that is, we dont know.

You know how it goes around here - it’s happened countless times - when a manager is disliked, all shite signings were his and all good signings not, they were the clubs. & vice versa to those who wouldn’t hear a bad word against the manager.

It was said countless times in the off season - this past summer, the approach to sign players changed a bit - it was a collective effort. The club proposed signings to ten Hag who then needed to agree. This was even true for MDL.