Sometimes there is smoke but no tobacco.
Dan "The Gardener" Ashworth Has Left | Venit, vidit, non vicit
- Thread starter Berbaclass
- Start date
He was caught knitting this in his office last week.
You'd like to think that Jim is clever enough to know that if Amorim isn't given a chance to prove himself and some proper backing, then it won't be the manager or the players that the fans turn their attention to.
It might be as simple as cost. Maybe there was some form of probation and this was a cheap solution to end the relationship?
Pretty atypical of the approach from SJR so far…
He was caught knitting this in his office last week.
The reports seem to suggest Sir Jim was unhappy with his passiveness in general, especially when Berrada and Wilcox seem to be hands on and active in a lot of stuff, it almost sounds like he was acting as a consultant in offering ideas on how to fix things instead of getting his hands dirty himself.
He's the CEO, that is the business definition of the 'big dog'. If he's not active in recruiting a new manager, he's not doing his job. The real question is why wasn't the Sporting Director looking for a progressive manager like Amorim and instead throwing out names of lads that he knew instead? Surely he should have been the one on the phone speaking to people around Europe and presenting ideas based on data from his own studies? It sounds like he really didn't have a clue how to deal with any of the issues he was presented with.
He was caught knitting this in his office last week.
I don't think that is the case, Barrada is already the top dawg in the club being CEO, only answers to old Jim, the rest answer to Barrada.
Barrada has the role of not only overseeing the big picture in the football side of things, but also the commercial side, being CEO means he will have to delegate football matters to DoF, and only be involved in major decisions like approving the DoF choice of hiring a new head coach, or sanctioning big money transfers.
Agree with this, if we believe the reports, then him not being ruthless in letting EtH go in the summer, or suggesting lame options as replacements, coupled with Barrada having to do some of the duties like flying to convince Yoro's camp or getting Amorim, it meant Ashworth was not as capable as they thought he was.
Wouldn't be surprised if we have done this now to avoid some kind of probation timing on gas contract. Not quite 6 months in, maybe cheaper now than after six months passes?
I was basing it off reports that there seemed to be a power struggle between the two in regards to football matters, which is a little confusing, tbh.
Though, I'm glad Ashworth is gone if he was phoning it in.
Yeah, from the club's perspective they have to manage this from a PR perspective and that naturally will be to make it seem like Ashworth wasn't up to it and had to go. That may well be the case but the picture presented is largely one from the club's perspective and not Ashworth's. The Athletic are obviously reputable but there will be another narrative from Ashworth's perspective that may make others think differently.
I don't think it's in Ashworth's best interest to throw too many swings the other way, even if he does feel he's been hard done by.
Couple of things that concern me are why would SJR be so hands on with that decision? Shouldn't it be fully up to Berrada to freeze people out or sack them, given he's the CEO with footballing experience? Owners getting involved in anything like that is a bad sign imo.
Also, this talk about messing up our summer signings it's weird to me. It's way too early to judge them and if you do it's looking like a much better window than recent times.
Odd logic.
It would always fall on Berrada to make the call anyway, although it would seem SJR would have more input than first suggested.
Berrada took control because Ashworth failed in his task of suggesting suitable replacements which fitted SJR's vision.
Big dawg? No. Berrada did what any good CEO should do. Took control when those below failed and resolved the situation personally and quickly. SJR also met with Amorim a week before and approved.
I don't see a possible negative against Berrada here if it doesn't work out.
The Athletic is my source.
its been weeks.... they aren't machines
Amorim said himself, he shouldn't have to coach basic decision making.
Well according to The Athletic, Berrada was the one who delivered the news to Ashworth. I think Ratcliffe is involved from the perspective of being informed on all decisions but I don't know how heavily he weighs in during the decision making process. I doubt Ratcliffe would've acted on that without any guidance from Berrada if Berrada and Ashworth were also at odds.
Second part is probably true but there were also reports there was a reticence on Ashworth's part to sign players to fit Amorim's system which supposedly caused friction behind the scenes.
Club is in crisis management mode so all hands approach is understandable. It also shows that SJ is not sitting there just to make money, which eventually he should when the club is stabilised.
Me neither - I think given his history, he's qualified to have an input into such matters. Arnold knew he wasn't qualified, so didn't get involved in football matters but Woodward did. It's much better to be in a place where the top man is capable of stepping in, should he be needed and it's not just throwing a finance guy into making big footballing decisions.
I closely followed Chelsea since Abramovich took over. He was ruthless. But boy SJ is a level above.
I guess my tl;dr is that Ratcliffe isn't a dinosaur who has no idea how data works, it's more the opposite. The Ashworth thing is a red flag for me, let's see how it evolves. Power seems to be concentrating around Berrada.
What the hell are you on about?
I never said Berrada isn't qualified to make the call. My reference was in regards to a rumoured power struggle between Ashworth and Berrada on football matters.
There's so much contradictory info circulating this story it's hard to weigh up what really happened.
- SJR blames Ashworth for Ten Hag's renewal - Ashworth wasn't even employed at that point, and even if he had influence surely Berrada/Brailsford bear the brunt of blame for that too
- SJR is pissed off at Ashworth for not 'owning' the Ten Hag renewal decision - I'm with SJR on this one, that was weak and disrepsectful to our then manager, but Berrada (who SJR supposedly still rates) was also part of that briefing and said the same.
- Ashworth was pushing for Southgate to replace Ten Hag - contradicts him being close to Ten Hag, but also reeks of Ineos briefing against Ashworth to turn the fans against him (it's worked)
- The story about him having a shortlist of ETH replacements (from Whitwell, so reliable) and therefore not decisive enough is harsh, considering if he'd just given one name that could have been looked at just as dimly.
- Ashworth being at fault for the summer window - again, all the Exec team deserve blame for this, I refuse to believe Ashworth was solely responsible.
Can’t say any of them feel like they have what it takes. Kind of get the feeling that the proposals are lazy, and are names Woodward would have proposed.
It’s been evident for quite some time that we need a massive change regarding management, where overhaul when coming to finding a clear system and working on the weak-as-piss mentality within the players.
Do feel Amorim fits the profile we need, in the long term when it comes to the system he needs and his characters. Seems like Berada was the one pulling the strings as well.
It’s going to take time to get this right, but feel like we are on the right track. Bumps on the road in various forms like Ashworth leaving(albeit big bump) and losing at home to Forrest should be expected.
If a club should be backing the manager and giving him time, then the club should also back the DOF and give him time. With the same logic he should be given a full season with transfers, managers, etc of his choice, see what the outcome is, if it doesn't work out sack him.
What we have, is Jim, a man that knows feck all about football, getting involved in the football side of the club.
He has a record of sacking managers with Nice in France, and has achieved nothing.5th, 9th. Currently 6th.
Everybody was praising him in the summer for getting the right people in the right places, we finally got a proper DOF well done Jim etc. Now the same people are coming up excuses for the sacking.
Don't see why any other DOF would want to come here if he just supposed to carry out Jim's wishes instead of doing his job.
What we have, is Jim, a man that knows feck all about football, getting involved in the football side of the club.
He has a record of sacking managers with Nice in France, and has achieved nothing.5th, 9th. Currently 6th.
Everybody was praising him in the summer for getting the right people in the right places, we finally got a proper DOF well done Jim etc. Now the same people are coming up excuses for the sacking.
Don't see why any other DOF would want to come here if he just supposed to carry out Jim's wishes instead of doing his job.
Ashworth accidentally sent his Dickpic to Ratcliffe by mistake.
“Accidentally”
Fair enough. I don't usually react too emotionally with United anymore, probably because my expectations have been lowered so much over the last decade. But I was naive enough to think that Ratcliffe and INEOS were actually trying to implement a proper structure at the club this time around. Hiring Ashworth seemed like a big step in the right direction for me, given their almost belligerent approach to getting him out of Newcastle, his industry reputation and so on.
So seeing them revert that decision in such a frantic fashion seemingly at the hand of Ratcliffe himself just screams mismanagement to me. All the press briefings coming out blaming Ashworth for everything under the sun just feels like vintage Glazer United. I really hoped we were moving away from that kind of nonsense now, but so far I'm unimpressed.
Sure, conflicts and power clashes happen in most major organization, when things aren't working out. Perhaps it will be more stable from now on if they've essentially allowed Berrada to take the crown for himself and pick his own posse. But personally I was hoping they would build something more like the management model you see at Liverpool. I suppose them hiring every City operator they could get their hands on should have been my first clue they weren't really going down that path.
I don't know, I personally can't find too much entertainment in their bumbling about and dragging the club badge through the dirt while doing so. Sometimes the results and actual comedy of errors on the pitch has me laughing at the absurdity of it all, but at the end of the day, I love United. And for me that makes it hard to accept what appears to be a repeating cycle of ill advised and disrespectful decisions that do not take the long view into account.
I wish we were as ruthless with our underperforming players as we are with our executives.. If we keep playing the same players without any concerns for their place or performance, nothing else matters.
I think Frank would've been one of the best options, but I feel the same way about Amorim, so there are no issues for me about that.
Howe would've been a disastrous one, though, in my opinion. Not sure about Silva or Potter. They don't seem like United managers to me.
I have a feeling that letting Ashworth go now will end up being the right decision, but now Berrada's choice in Amorim will have to do well, otherwise fans will inevitably start asking questions and having doubts.
Why can't we have a consistent style, regardless of who is in the dugout, with 3-4-3?
The players seemed half asleep at the weekend too
I think this would’ve been better to announce on Monday following a meeting. The mutual decision reason may have been more believable then. The way Ashworth was called away from his family at the end of the match and sacked there and then feels like there was some anger behind it all. Did he really need to be sacked at 8pm on a Saturday night? Doesn’t feel like it was a mutual decision
He was caught knitting this in his office last week.
Very good!
I don't think Jim has sacked Ashworth because he disagreed with certain decisions but I think he realized that he was the wrong fit. He is an operations guy, who sets up the structure and gets people to work like cogs whereas they seem like they expected a more exotic and decisive guy who would take an active role in recruitment and have more control.
That's not to say he isn't good at what he does because I think, if given a chance, he would have built a smooth running team that would have slowly got the club back to its feet. Jim seems like he wants a Monchi or Rangnick type who will come in, take control and bring in a couple of unheralded talents that would become revelations in the season. Same with the way he reportedly had Frank, Silva etc on a list - that wasn't an adventurous list but a sensible one.
Jim doesn't have decades to rebuild, he wants things done quickly and with a bit of creativity to cut some corners. I don't think he will blame Berrada if Amorim doesn't work out, for example but he'd be disappointed his team didn't try. I think it's ok that they have seen their mistake early on and move on quickly rather than limp along with a guy you no longer rate or trust.
Someone else said apparently city have beat us to him already.
He obviously wasn't as it was stated that even though he was involved in discussions he went out of his way to limit the number of meetings he was in. Primarily because he was still employed to Newcastle. It would have been the INEOS people like Blanc and Brailsford who made the final recommendation.
Keeping ETH was a collective decision in the summer. Multiple people wanted that in the boardroom.
The duties of these roles are completely based on whatever the club wants. Fletcher and Wilcox have both been Techincal Directors at the club and both have had different duties.