Fair enough - wasn’t following it so missed that.
Liverpool won’t get any negative press, especially surrounding the Klopp farewell tour, which is probably still ongoing somewhere.
Dan Ashworth - Garden ready | Back to football with United | use thread in United forum
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Liverpool won’t get any negative press, especially surrounding the Klopp farewell tour, which is probably still ongoing somewhere.
Not really for us. Not a big deal if he's not in place before the transfer window. He's the DOF and his role isn't to run first team recruitment for one summer or say yes / no to individual players. He needs to make sure the right people / processes are in-place to run an effective organization. e.g., Is Wilcox the right guy to decide if we keep / fire Ten Hag? Should Judge be doing negotiations or should we bring in outside help? Is the dynamic between the chief scout / wilcox / the manager looking good? Is the input from the data people being valued appropriately etc.
The annoying thing though is that Liverpool are the posterchilds (children?) for the manager vs dof struggle. Edwards had all the power to start with - slowly it was eroded with Klopp taking more and more over and ended with him leaving. Then FSG brought him back and took away a bunch of responsibilities from Klopp and gave them back to Edwards and resulted in Klopp leaving. None of this is well covered in the media.
That is very inaccurate. Klopp announced he was leaving way before Edwards was brought back.
Because he got told he wouldn't have the same amount of influence anymore and needs to work with a more powerful DOF.
Anyway, if you have more pointers than just the dates I'd love to read more. I heard about this narrative on a (somewhat well respected) podcast about football tactics.
What was this (credibly) reported?
Dan Ashworth - Newcastle DoF currently tending to his boy Southgate
It would be quite concerning if he's genuinely interested in Southgate.
Most seem to heap praise on him and accord him the status of best in the class but I can't see how anyone worth their salt would consider such an under qualified candidate for a job of this magnitude.
Most seem to heap praise on him and accord him the status of best in the class but I can't see how anyone worth their salt would consider such an under qualified candidate for a job of this magnitude.
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The only source I have is the double pivot podcast but yeah I might be mistaken. Maybe Klopp did decide to leave independent of this whole power struggle and FSG said yeah let's reset the power structure a bit.
Weird take, Rodgers was the one that was completely against the DOF setup and Liverpools transfer committee. Klopp has spoken several times of his admiration of Edwards and given him a lot of praise for the key signings he was involved in. Edwards was announced after Klopp said he was fecking off
Yeah as I said above I'm not sure about this one but there's clearly some political wrangling happening at LFC. We'll know more in a few years...
Ultimately the uber-point is that we don't want "yes-men" as coaches per-se but the DOF model has won and coaches will need to adapt. It's true for Chelsea with Maresca and for United with or without Ten Hag. It's also true for both City and Pool but no one really covers that or dares call Guardiola a "yes-man".
It’s not a link what is this post?
It’s just a daft journalist on twitter.
It’s always going to be a collaboration where the manager still has power. He’ll obviously have less power in terms of perhaps identifying and insisting on players, but any suggestions is not going to be completely ignored because it’s not his responsibility, and it’s not as if the club is going to sign someone that the manager is completely against either.
NATIONAL LEVEL?
Klopp was always the most powerful person on the football side at Liverpool when he was appointed in October 2015. Edwards and the Liverpool transfer committee were being ridiculed by both fans and media alike at the time. The Liverpool fans wanted Edwards gone because he'd vetoed the signings of Van Dijk from Celtic and Mane from Salzburg because Dr Ian Graham's data model deemed him not to be good enough and instead they chose to sign Lazar Markovic from Benfica. Klopp's arrival actually revived Liverpool's football structure and they got rid of the transfer committee. And yes Klopp was persuaded to change his mind on signing Brandt for Salah. But it was Klopp who pushed for the Mane signing despite Edwards and his team deeming him not good enough previously with the BBC reporting that Klopp had followed the player for 4 years whilst he was coaching in Germany.
I'm not exactly sure why Edwards decided to leave in the first place. But his last signing at Liverpool was Darwin Nunez and he's not the Sporting director anymore and has been given a more prominent role as FSG's football CEO with Richard Hughes in charge of the football side of the club as the sporting director.
As far as Dan Ashworth is concerned, he's a smart operator on the football side of the club, but if there's one thing which I've never really agreed with him on was his decision making when it came to hiring coaches. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Ashworth looks to bring in a coach who he has worked with previously. I'm not sure why it's taken INEOS this long to provide clarity on ten Hag's position when I think all this could've been done before the last game of the league season.
And if you start buying players for a coach without allowing him significant input on the profile of player to sign, then things will start to get messy because no well run club cuts their coach off from how to develop the team strategically. The head coach is the expert as far as executing the strategy on the pitch, hence he shouldn't be sidelined but rather he should be assisted on the way he wants to develop the team. The DoF and his team of scouts/analyts should be there to assist a vision which the head coach is brought in to execute. So yes the transfer targets must be made up of players who have been selected by the club's recruitment and analytics. But that is after input from the head coach on how he wants to develop the team. And from listening to Ashworth during his time with Brighton, he went on record and said that he wouldn't sign a player if the head coach wasn't in agreement.
Glad it's only Dawson saying it, really hope the tier 1's pour cold water on this later today
Surely we could reach a fecking compromise if everything is waiting for Ashworth to join?
Surely it's costing us in all kinds of ways already for the sake of £5m.
Surely it's costing us in all kinds of ways already for the sake of £5m.
They want £20m
If you remove the clickbait tweet, I think what he probably means is Ashworth wants a head coach rather than a manager. It's not uncommon in a DoF setup and that's how it works in City, Arsenal. It does not mean the manager will not be consulted in recruitments.
That's just a starter offer. They're not going to say we want 2m are they.
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Agree. And if you don’t remove the clickbait tweet, it means that the world consists of Thomas Tuchel, Jose Mourinho, Antonio Conte plus 8.1 billion ‘yes’-people.
Pep and Arteta would challenge their higher ups. This sounds different.
I have seen one or two places mention that he prefers domestic. Not sure how it was put, but I could see him genuinely going for Southgate.
Rather potter than, much more of a proven track record than whatever Southgate has.
What I understand is, he took the generic working of a DoF and a head coach model, and exaggerated it to an absurd level implying the DoF wants the coach to be a dummy. That is never the case anywhere and Ten Hag himself prefers to work with a DoF (he has stated this many times). Probably an idiot tweeting for click bait.
Maybe, I hope it's this. Or it's not too far from the truth and that's why they can't agree with Tuchel or Poch.
I mean obviously neither us will ever know for sure but Dan Ashworth when he was at Brighton is on the record as saying that he never buys any player that the head coach does not approve of because then the coach will just not play that player and you've wasted your money. And he was at Brighton, what, two years ago? If he's willing to give the coach a say at Brighton - the platonic ideal for a no managers, head coach only, we sign players based on a state-of-the-art data analytics model specially created by the owner's other company (StarLizard) - I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to do the same at United.
He famously had a "three green lights" model he operated with at Brighton -
1. They identify positions they want to strengthen based on input from the coach. They then identify players they want for those positions using the Starlizard model. The scouting team then goes and watches these players in person and prepares a report. If the scouts like the player, that becomes the first green light.
2. The scout report, with accompanying data and video analysis, is then presented to the manager to review. If the manager is happy with the player, that becomes the second green light.
3. The finance team set a budget for each position and reach out to the other club to get an assessment on willingness to sell/numbers involved. If the numbers make sense to the finance team, that becomes the third green light.
(They also just generally keep an eye out for players whose numbers really pop out on their model and try to sign them but that you would expect any recruitment team to do, no? That is akin to United keeping an eye on Cristiano Ronaldo or Javier Hernandez just because they seem like interesting punts, as opposed to signing Van Der Sar or Van Persie with a clear idea of where they fit into the first team/squad)
If Ashworth gets three green lights, Brighton start serious negotiations to sign the player. Again, the manager has a clear say - he decides which position to strengthen in the squad and he also gets to say no if he's not convinced by the scouting report.
I mean he could come to United and change his approach to consolidate more power but that doesn't seem to align with the rest of his career. Honestly, just watch any interview with Ashworth and he seems like the boring, sensible type. He's not really a football philosopher like, say Rangnick, or a transfer guru like Monchi. Whether that makes him a good fit for United's needs, we'll have to wait to find out.
Some of the Caf will have trouble with him then.
This is honestly piss funny.
It would really surprise me if journalists aren't monitoring the forum and writing articles based on the discussions.
It's absolutely comical the integrity of reporters, every piece is the same "expected, anticipated, should, could, likely".
Like how does this gardening leave actually work, is he prohibited to provide any information to us on transfer targets or what. How are Newcastle supposed to know what information he’s currently providing ?
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And this (his exclusive tweet about Ten Hag just now after not entering the clickbait market like the other feckwit journos) is why Ornstein is the one to wait for.
Indeed. He's also a big reason why I refused to entertain Southgate nonsense. He's played it down since the beginning.
So a couple of hours after there are stories about ETH being concerned about our ability to fix the squad in the market due to this dillydallying with a managerial appointment which seemed devoid of direction, INEOS have confirmed he's staying. Surely Ashworth is part of that decision making process?
And if so, he must be involved in squad turnover already.
Has there been anything reported in terms of the arbitration process, in terms of a timeframe?
And if so, he must be involved in squad turnover already.
Has there been anything reported in terms of the arbitration process, in terms of a timeframe?
Is this article literally just saying,
‘United have hired a DoF and his job responsibilities will be that of a DoF’
cc-ed
Three week gap from cup final to the Euros, nothing else happening (no one cares about Chelsea changing manager) so they all just guessed and went “sources tell me”… “apparently United are interested in xxxxx”… “Ten Hag on way out” to fill the fecking time. Do some fecking work and write some properly researched articles you morons!
No Southgate! Phew
I think Ratcliffe raises a question in an interview and then drives past Ashworths house and sees what colour flowers he has in the window.
Blue for no, red for yes
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