Daily Mail

Nearly every Subway I've been in has been staffed (and therefore possibly owned) largely by those of Arab descent, who could quite possibly be Muslim themselves. Maybe this has more to do with the removal of bacon than any pressure from Muslim groups. It would be a very odd and specific target, Subway, wouldn't it? I mean for all the places that serve bacon; shops, supermarkets, McDonald's, Burger King, the sandwiches at Boots and the cheese and bacon panninis at Starbucks; Subway would be a strange target.

So maybe the reason why there are so many bacon free/halal Subway's around is because of the disproportionate number of Muslim management as opposed to a bizarrely specific campaign by the wider community to bar Subway (of all places) from selling bacon.
 
Sean Lennon channels his inner Gandalf as he steps out in NYC looking like the Lord Of The Rings wizard
 
Sir A1ex said:
Apparently so, but something tells me the people who get frothy in the mouth about the existence of Halal meat aren't all free-range organic mung-bean munching animal rights activists, if you know what I mean.
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There's something sad when the person based in reality I.e the person who wants animals to suffer as little as possible is lampooned but the person following an ancient set of rules which don't have any relevance to modern society are seen as the rational party.
 
paceme said:
There's something sad when the person based in reality I.e the person who wants animals to suffer as little as possible is lampooned but the person following an ancient set of rules which don't have any relevance to modern society are seen as the rational party.
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Racist.
 
paceme said:
Eh?
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Thats why you don't like Islam, you're a racist, "ancient set of rules which don't have any relevance to modern society". I am absolutely revolted by your opinion, I think you need to apologise for offending me.

LOL



PS. This is funny.

 
paceme said:
There's something sad when the person based in reality I.e the person who wants animals to suffer as little as possible is lampooned but the person following an ancient set of rules which don't have any relevance to modern society are seen as the rational party.
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But that's not the reality. The reality is people who ordinarily don't give a toss about how the meat they eat is slaughtered, suddenly thinking it's an outrage if they discover it's killed in a certain way. It isn't rational to only eat Halal meat, of course not it's bonkers like all stupid religious rules. But at the same time if Joe Bloggs has eaten meat for years and never once been vaguely curious about its origin, what position is he in to complain when he finds out it may have been slaughtered by the Halal tradition?

You can't go from not giving a shit to being outraged when you find out something happens to the meat you didn't even care about the processing of five minutes ago.
 
Plugsy said:
But that's not the reality. The reality is people who ordinarily don't give a toss about how the meat they eat is slaughtered, suddenly thinking it's an outrage if they discover it's killed in a certain way. It isn't rational to only eat Halal meat, of course not it's bonkers like all stupid religious rules. But at the same time if Joe Bloggs has eaten meat for years and never once been vaguely curious about its origin, what position is he in to complain when he finds out it may have been slaughtered by the Halal tradition?

You can't go from not giving a shit to being outraged when you find out something happens to the meat you didn't even care about the processing of five minutes ago.
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That's not really true, most people will assume that the meat they are eating is killed as humanely as possible unless otherwise stated, if said person is then made aware that it is not at all killed humanely they have every right to be annoyed, especially if it is a place they've been going to for a while, just look at supermarkets these days separating meat from caged animals and free range, the majority of people buy free range products whenever they can these days, at least in my experience people care an awful lot these days.
 
paceme said:
There's something sad when the person based in reality I.e the person who wants animals to suffer as little as possible is lampooned but the person following an ancient set of rules which don't have any relevance to modern society are seen as the rational party.
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Look, if Morrissey, Linda McCartney or the Dali freakin' Lama express their disapproval of Halal meat on animal cruelty grounds, then that's fair enough. But some brain-dead skinhead in and EDL shirt on his way to an illegal pitbull fight? Nah, I don't think so. And the latter make up the vast majority of the voices you'll hear expressing these views.
 
paceme said:
That's not really true, most people will assume that the meat they are eating is killed as humanely as possible unless otherwise stated
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No they don't, and if they do they are stupid. Large-scale meat production is primarily about efficiency, with animal welfare as an unwelcome secondary concern imposed on the industry from the outside.

paceme said:
just look at supermarkets these days separating meat from caged animals and free range, the majority of people buy free range products whenever they can these days.
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Really? I've not seen the stats, but if the majority of produce is free-range / ethical I'll eat my dog (after humanely stunning her first).

Please don't mistake the fact that a vocal minority buy these products, and the supermarkets like to make a bit noise about them for it being the bulk of the market. We found at last year that half the time we don't even know what animal it is, not to mention how it lived and died!
 
Sir A1ex said:
Look, if Morrissey, Linda McCartney or the Dali freakin' Lama express their disapproval of Halal meat on animal cruelty grounds, then that's fair enough. But some brain-dead skinhead in and EDL shirt on his way to an illegal pitbull fight? Nah, I don't think so. And the latter make up the vast majority of the voices you'll hear expressing these views.
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That's just a shit generalization. There are idiots in any argument, do ordinary people have to go out on the street to protest to be annoyed at something?
 
Sir A1ex said:
No they don't, and if they do they are stupid. Large-scale meat production is primarily about efficiency, with animal welfare as an unwelcome secondary concern imposed on the industry from the outside.



Really? I've not seen the stats, but if the majority of produce is free-range / ethical I'll eat my dog (after humanely stunning her first).
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What are you on about? It's on supermarket packets? You can buy Free range chicken, you can buy caged chicken and then there's some inbetween thing I can't remember the name of. Seriously, visit a supermarket. Of course people aren't going to be able to look at everything they eat but the point is that when it is there for people to see, by and large they buy free range food, so if something is labeled as Halal they are perfectly within there rights to be upset about it when that is the only choice on offer.
 
paceme said:
That's just a shit generalization. There are idiots in any argument, do ordinary people have to go out on the street to protest to be annoyed at something?
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No, you're right, it's hard to generalise based on opinions people hold but don't feel the need to go around shouting about. I'm talking about people who do feel the need to bang on about it, and this is pretty much exclusively the Mail, the EDL and a few like minded folk. And it's not hard to see that their "outrage" has little to do with them being some kind of commited guardians of animal rights, and a lot more to do with their attitude towards the religion concerned.

Personally I agree with you and most others in this thread that all religious rules of this sort are totally insane bollocks, but I don't go round getting cross about the effect they have on a sandwich shop I don't go to.
 
paceme said:
What are you on about? It's on supermarket packets? You can buy Free range chicken, you can buy caged chicken and then there's some inbetween thing I can't remember the name of. Seriously, visit a supermarket. Of course people aren't going to be able to look at everything they eat but the point is that when it is there for people to see, by and large they buy free range food, so if something is labeled as Halal they are perfectly within there rights to be upset about it when that is the only choice on offer.
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Without meaning to parrot you, what are you on about? As in I actually don't understand your point... the stats on how many people buy free range are on the packets? :confused:
 
Sir A1ex said:
No, you're right, it's hard to generalise based on opinions people hold but don't feel the need to go around shouting about. I'm talking about people who do feel the need to bang on about it, and this is pretty much exclusively the Mail, the EDL and a few like minded folk. And it's not hard to see that their "outrage" has little to do with them being some kind of commited guardians of animal rights, and a lot more to do with their attitude towards the religion concerned.

Personally I agree with you and most others in this thread that all religious rules of this sort are totally insane bollocks, but I don't go round getting cross about the effect they have on a sandwich shop I don't go to.
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You should because one day it might be a sandwich shop you do go to.
 
Hectic said:
I don't know anyone who thinks this or even gives it a second thought.
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So you don't think that people when going into a shop selling meat and animal products which are labeled free range or halal pay any attention to those markings?

I don't think I have ever been to a store where free range food is sold with someone who has just picked up the caged option.

The point is that if it is not in anyway labeled as to where the meat has come from, you can't reasonably expect anyone to delve into it. However when it is labeled and information about how the animal lived is provided an awful lot of people do pay attention. You can't say someone can't be upset by only being offered halal because at some other point they may have eaten something inhumanely killed when they weren't informed and there was no way of being informed.
 
Sir A1ex said:
No, you're right, it's hard to generalise based on opinions people hold but don't feel the need to go around shouting about. I'm talking about people who do feel the need to bang on about it, and this is pretty much exclusively the Mail, the EDL and a few like minded folk. And it's not hard to see that their "outrage" has little to do with them being some kind of commited guardians of animal rights, and a lot more to do with their attitude towards the religion concerned.

Personally I agree with you and most others in this thread that all religious rules of this sort are totally insane bollocks, but I don't go round getting cross about the effect they have on a sandwich shop I don't go to.
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I don't get cross either at halal meat being sold, i'm more annoyed at the fact that you decided to insult people who when told where the meat has come from don't want it and are upset by it instead of the morons who still abide by stupid rules. I don't believe at all that people don't care where there food has come from, just because it isn't a massive part of your life doesn't mean you don't care at all.
 
paceme said:
I don't think I have ever been to a store where free range food is sold with someone who has just picked up the caged option.
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:lol: Well you must hang around with people who are entirely not representative of the population.

Eggs are by far the most developed free-range product... everybody likes a free range egg right? Well I just googled it and Defra figures indicate that 45% of eggs produced in the UK throughout 2010 were free-range, 5% were produced in barn systems and 50% from cages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poultry_farming) - so only half of eggs are free-range. But if everybody gives such a shit about the animals, why are we buying them from birds that live their entire lives indoors at all? Only 5% of eggs are from hens that have any kind of normal, natural, quality life. But we salve our consciences because it says "free range" on the box - well feck me, the hen was actually able to move!

I'll try and find similar stats for chicken meat, but I'll bet you the proportions are way lower... as I say, eggs are way ahead of meat in this game.
 
Zak Smith said:
Glad to here, if I was regular subway user they would be losing my custom over this debacle as well.
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To be clear, I'd go to another shop because they sold ham and bacon, which I freakin love. Not because I laboured under some delusion that the animals they sold had wonderful lives and humane deaths.
 
paceme said:
I don't believe at all that people don't care where there food has come from, just because it isn't a massive part of your life doesn't mean you don't care at all.
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You reckon everyone cares about where their food comes from? Easily the majority of people I know don't care at all and make no effort to find out. Price or brand dictates choice most of the time.
 
Sir A1ex said:
Without meaning to parrot you, what are you on about? As in I actually don't understand your point... the stats on how many people buy free range are on the packets? :confused:
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I'll put it as simply as I can, I have a tendency to overwrite. If people are given information about there food directly, i.e on the packet or on a poster in a shop, imo they care and most will go for the free range option. There are many on the caf who will tell you that I have eaten at many a place and am a fat bastard, so I should know about this shit man :lol:
 
paceme said:
I'll put it as simply as I can, I have a tendency to overwrite. If people are given information about there food directly, i.e on the packet or on a poster in a shop, imo they care and most will go for the free range option. There are many on the caf who will tell you that I have eaten at many a place and am a fat bastard, so I should know about this shit man :lol:
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:lol:

A lot will care, but as Hectic says, the slightest price differential will make them a lot less concerned. What annoys me, though, is the way people mistake slight improvements in animal welfare for the animals having idyllic lives. Put it this way - what would rather eat, a non-free-range egg or halal meat?

If you're going to eat meat, you should not kid yourself that it is somehow kind or humane to do so.
 
Hectic said:
You reckon everyone cares about where their food comes from? Easily the majority of people I know don't care at all and make no effort to find out. Price dictates choice most of the time.
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Well fair enough but it's the opposite for me, everyone I know will always buy a free range chicken or free range beef if available, that at least proves that some people do care when given the information directly. I certainly always buy free range stuff, not just because it's usually bigger......
 
paceme said:
Well fair enough but it's the opposite for me, everyone I know will always buy a free range chicken or free range beef if available, that at least proves that some people do care when given the information directly. I certainly always buy free range stuff, not just because it's usually bigger......
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I don't doubt a lot of people do, especially if the information is there already, but I'd question if even the majority of people in this country do the same. I still think the biggest influence by far is price.
 
paceme said:
Well fair enough but it's the opposite for me, everyone I know will always buy a free range chicken or free range beef if available, that at least proves that some people do care when given the information directly. I certainly always buy free range stuff, not just because it's usually bigger......
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And I thought I hung around with middle class liberals! (I do buy most of my eggs from the farmer at the end of the road, so I'll have some Guardian points for that thank you).

Do you and your acquaintances have kids and mortgages? I've noticed a definite regression in this sort of thinking compared to my mid 20s...
 
Sir A1ex said:
:lol:

A lot will care, but as Hectic says, the slightest price differential will make them a lot less concerned. What annoys me, though, is the way people mistake slight improvements in animal welfare for the animals having idyllic lives. Put it this way - what would rather eat, a non-free-range egg or halal meat?

If you're going to eat meat, you should not kid yourself that it is somehow kind or humane to do so.
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That is true but you can't blame people for not getting involved with it really and just looking at it superficially, most people have time to properly watch a documentary about it and that's it.

I'd not really be bothered tbh, I guess halal meat as the animal may have been in a field at least and not stuck in a tiny cage, the only objection I have to it really is that is religion being imposed, but if other people want to care let them.
 
Sir A1ex said:
And I thought I hung around with middle class liberals! (I do buy most of my eggs from the farmer at the end of the road, so I'll have some Guardian points for that thank you).

Do you and your acquaintances have kids and mortgages? I've noticed a definite regression in this sort of thinking compared to my mid 20s...
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I'm pretty working class and so are most of the people I know :lol: It's just an automatic thing for me really.
 
That has to be one of the worst articles ever written. I mean the Daily Mail's had plenty of contenders but that article as a whole just stands at the top of ignorance. The whole thing is just shocking in its lack of research. This is just another awful bit to publish in an actual newspaper:

It is true there are a few alcoholics, too, but they are vastly outnumbered by those whose lives have been ruined by heroin or crack cocaine
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A quick google would have given him figures of an estimated 1.6m alcoholics, compared to under 300k even using crack cocaine and heroin, yet alone addicted to them.

Sources:

http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/campaign/statistics-on-alcohol
http://www.nta.nhs.uk/news-2013-prevalence.aspx


I know we shouldn't expect much from the Daily Mail but this isn't even opinion, its just completely factually wrong.

Looking at his old articles i've found a perhaps better quote though, in an article about the floods the same writer drops this gem about the Environment Agency:

The agency stands accused of following an environmentally driven agenda.
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Headlines man.
 
Millions are eating halal food without knowing it: How big brand shops and restaurants sell ritually slaughtered meat - but don't label it

Why are they acting as if halal meat contains a magical potion or that if you eat halal meat you become apart of some clan that you want no part in?
These guys need to know that just because they're selling halal meat it doesn't mean that Muslims are one step closer to conquering the country, dont worry.
 
There is a lot of misinformation being banded about with this halal debate. The argument that nobody cares what they eat is ironic to say the least. Some people don't care what they eat that is true but the growing trend is a lot of people really do care what they eat and where it comes from. I don't really care what people want to eat that is everyone's choice but when we live in a world where the majority of food is in the hands of massive company's there should always be that choice. The whole demand for halal is because a group of people care about the way it is killed. The suppliers have realised that it is more cost effective for them to say a prayer etc. to every animal than have separate operations and this is where we have ended up. Personally I don't care about my food having some kind of religious blessing but I can see why some wouldn't want that. That should be up to them and they don't have to be a skinhead EDL member to feel that way. The counter argument would be "who cares it doesn't have any effect on the food" but then why do it in the first place if it is so meaningless? I am not super religious but I have always had respect for religions and the way people live their lives but I don't think they should ever interfere with anyone else's. If someone wants to eat halal meat the most important thing to me is that it should be killed in a humane way after that I don't really care but people should be able to decide if they want to eat it or not.
 
I'm not too bothered what I eat to be fair, however if given the choice I would choose Halal. I just think taking a life of an animal should be done by hand rather than in a slaughter house by a machine. Plus Halal meat is an instant kill even though people say it's inhumane etc, and is mostly stunned. People should watch Food inc. before lecturing people about how terrible halal meat is. End of the day, it's probably pretty awful eating meat either way with the methods in killing (and bringing up with hormones etc) the animals, so we shouldn't be so judgmental of what way the animals are killed.

This whole media exaggeration is clearly just to turn people more against Muslims, which is terrible. Funny how it is all about 'halal meat' and not much about 'kosher'. It's pretty annoying how much the media try to turn England against Muslims. I hear stories left, right and centre about gangs of Muslims (always highlighted) doing this and doing that, where probably there are non Muslims doing exactly the same thing which goes unreported.
 
I don't understand why anyone would care (unless they think eating it will turn you into a gay Muslim from Poland over here stealing our jobs), also it make senses for supermarkets, fast food chains, restaurants and anyone else selling meat to use Hala meat when they can, why would they want to exclude any potential customer by not using it.
 
Andy_Cole said:
People should watch Food inc. before lecturing people about how terrible halal meat is.
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I didn't eat meat for about 6 months after watching that, it was awful. I'm convinced that if you want to eat meat you should have to kill at least one animal so you know what's actually going on, people are far too detatched from reality.
 
C.M.P said:
I don't understand why anyone would care (unless they think eating it will turn you into a gay Muslim from Poland over here stealing our jobs), also it make senses for supermarkets, fast food chains, restaurants and anyone else selling meat to use Hala meat when they can, why would they want to exclude any potential customer by not using it.
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I definitely agree it makes sense for companies selling meat to use halal meat but then I also think people should have a choice whether that be because of their religion or welfare concerns, people should have the right to choose what they eat. I don't think it's fair this idea that anyone who doesn't want to eat halal meat is labelled as some kind of racist islamaphobe and I actually think it's pretty small minded and ignorant to stereotype people like that. We are all different at the end of the day and within reason can choose to live our lives whatever way we wish. If people want to eat halal meat fine but if others don't I can't see what the issue is?

Just to address a few of the things mentioned we don't raise animals on hormones in this country and these animals are being killed in exactly the same place halal or non halal. In factory sized slaughterhouses. The only difference is there is probably someone now employed on the line to mutter a few blessings.
 
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