Cycling 2024

[RobinLFC]

It was as unnecessary and not true as Remco's comments.

Like clockwork. One of my favorite times on the cafe is your yearly going on about casual tour fans, too predictable! You need new material. Its true I mainly care about posting during the tour, but I barely post in the first place anyway, but nonetheless watch most of the classics.

I don't care one bit that someone is a die hard or casual fan. Just consider me skeptical about the added value of your presence in this thread when the first and only time you've bothered to come into here and post was a snide and false remark about another rider after your national hero did something well. Just my two cents of course.

I see, so when Vingegaard attacks all-out halfway through a stage halfway through the Tour, it doesn’t count because it wasn’t his plan (unlike when Remco or Pogi attacks, I suppose?) and he has good teammates (unlike the other two?). Basically Vingegaard lacks balls because he doesn’t ride like an idiot.

Evenepoel and Pogacar, just like someone like Van der Poel by the way, aren't exactly racing intelligently a lot of times. There are countless examples of them going off-script, wasting too much strength, and blowing it afterwards. Vingegaard just isn't like that. Having big balls in cycling has nothing to do with racing smart, intelligently, winning things, being able to follow in the mountains or anything like that. It's an attitude that Vingegaard just doesn't possess, you all don't need to feel so attacked by that fact. It's fine that he doesn't.

You are just as biased as you accuse others of being and your arrogant belittling of ‘casual’ fans is not a great look.

See above. Also, could you point out what kind of biased things I've said apart from being overly critical of Vingegaard which I've admitted myself already? You are living in a bubble if you think my opinion on Vingegaard is a stand-alone one or anything of the like - I'd suggest you read some Twitter threads or listen to some podcasts but I might come across as too arrogant again if I do that, so I won't. Not that it maters anyway as you'll be gone from this thread for the rest of the year in two weeks time

 

[RobinLFC]

Only summit finishes and time trials are excluded, I believe.

I think it's the classification of the stage beforehand that matters. This one wasn't a mountain stage so the usual rule is in place. The one over the Galibier also wasn't a summit finish but I believe the rule wasn't applicable there.

 

[Ralaks]

I don't care one bit that someone is a die hard or casual fan. Just consider me skeptical about the added value of your presence in this thread when the first and only time you've bothered to come into here and post was a snide and false remark about another rider after your national hero did something well. Just my two cents of course.

Sure you don't. I just find it hilarious that you, a Belgian LFC is gatekeeping, in a cycling thread on a Man Utd forum. Maybe focus on cyclingnews forum or something if you only expect die hard analysis and not banter, I'd imagine you would have significantly thicker skin being on a opposition forum in the first place.

Keep being arrogant about how your deep technical analysis is significantly more important, it sure is, especially considering you are so unbiased that your posts are not completely valueless either

 

[RobinLFC]

Sure you don't. I just find it hilarious that you, a Belgian LFC is gatekeeping, in a cycling thread on a Man Utd forum. Maybe focus on cyclingnews forum or something if you only expect die hard analysis and not banter, I'd imagine you would have significantly thicker skin being on a opposition forum in the first place.

Keep being arrogant about how your deep technical analysis is significantly more important, it sure is, especially considering you are so unbiased that your posts are not completely valueless either

Oh it was banter? Don’t know how I missed that.

 

[Mike Smalling]

It's just banter mate, innit. With the lads!

 

[Stevondo8]

How far outside the time limit was Fred wright? Must have been a long lonely day.

 

[Rams]

This is boiling up beautifully for the GC. Vingegaard looked strong today, but unlike the previous 2 races he doesn’t seem to have the best team for the mountain stages, UAE seem stronger this year. That leaves him vulnerable to getting isolated from his team in the mountain stages and he still has time to make up. And for me there’s still a question about his fitness particularly as we enter the 3rd week. Then again, how will Pogacar stand up in the final week after riding the Giro? Wouldn’t even write Evenepoel off just yet.

 

[Mighty Boosh]

Vingegaard gone slight favourite now with the bookies

Crazy, definitely did not see him being this strong after the crash but the way he reeled in Pog today was something

 

[Rams]

Vingegaard gone slight favourite now with the bookies

Crazy, definitely did not see him being this strong after the crash but the way he reeled in Pog today was something

I wouldn’t put money on either yet as UAE are a lot stronger than the Visma’s this year.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I wonder if Pogacar overcooked himself a bit on the descent, where he opened up the gap quite a bit, or if he maybe mismanaged his fueling. It really didn't take long for Vingegaard to catch him up that climb, and it's quite unusual for him to lose the sprint (apparently it's his first ever loss in a two-up sprint).

 

[RobinLFC]

Also quite remarkable that he commented that he had focused more on the long mountains rather than this kind of short stuff in his preparation, gives me a bit more confidence in him. Wonder if he should switch mentality now and just focus on following Vingegaard rather than trying to widen the gap. We're almost at the end of Wk 2 as well at the moment so not early in the Tour anymore.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Also quite remarkable that he commented that he had focused more on the long mountains rather than this kind of short stuff in his preparation, gives me a bit more confidence in him. Wonder if he should switch mentality now and just focus on following Vingegaard rather than trying to widen the gap. We're almost at the end of Wk 2 as well at the moment so not early in the Tour anymore.

We will be a lot smarter after the two weekend stages. It will be the first two stages in Vingegaard terrain, and hopefully he feels like he has to go for it, and not wait until stage 19 and 20. It'll be fascinating to see how each of the teams will go for it. You'd think that it should be up to Visma to make the stage hard, but they maybe don't have the team for it. UAE would be wise to ride cautiously, surround Pogacar, and let Vingegaard do the attacking. It's a bit of a reversal compared to the last two years.

 

[RobinLFC]

I wonder if Pogacar overcooked himself a bit on the descent, where he opened up the gap quite a bit, or if he maybe mismanaged his fueling. It really didn't take long for Vingegaard to catch him up that climb, and it's quite unusual for him to lose the sprint (apparently it's his first ever loss in a two-up sprint).

Multiple outlets and ex-riders have said that it looked like a fringale (don't know the English term, basically didn't eat enough) because of the way he sprinted and how (much) he was eating right after the race. Wouldn't be his first time and would be an explanation as to why he lost so much time on Vingegaard on the Col de Pertus. On the other hand it's an easy cop-out explanation for him being caught again by Vingegaard as well, so we'll never know the right answer I guess.

We will be a lot smarter after the two weekend stages. It will be the first two stages in Vingegaard terrain, and hopefully he feels like he has to go for it, and not wait until stage 19 and 20. It'll be fascinating to see how each of the teams will go for it. You'd think that it should be up to Visma to make the stage hard, but they maybe don't have the team for it. UAE would be wise to ride cautiously, surround Pogacar, and let Vingegaard do the attacking. It's a bit of a reversal compared to the last two years.

Exactly, intriguing stuff. You'd say Vingegaard is the favorite to overtake him for yellow at this point, taking into account how yesterday went down (and the bookies seem to agree with that), but you'd be a fool to count Pogacar out because you just never know with him. I wouldn't even rule Remco out completely, he's clearly not on their level in the mountains but he might go crazy in a stage or take advantage of Pogacar and Vingegaard (and VLAB/UAE) looking solely at each other.

 

[B20]

Imagine if Vingegaard wasn't around. We'd be seeing Pogacar strolling uncontested to a fifth straight Tour de France win. It's crazy how much better those two are than everyone else.

 

[B20]

This is very much a hindsight thing, since it looked like he had dropped Vingegaard, but pogacar really would have been better off having his team force the stage and then sprint up the mountain at the end for extra seconds. Putting both of them out on long hauls is playing into Vingegaard's biggest strength.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Multiple outlets and ex-riders have said that it looked like a fringale (don't know the English term, basically didn't eat enough) because of the way he sprinted and how (much) he was eating right after the race. Wouldn't be his first time and would be an explanation as to why he lost so much time on Vingegaard on the Col de Pertus. On the other hand it's an easy cop-out explanation for him being caught again by Vingegaard as well, so we'll never know the right answer I guess.

I think the English cycling term would be "bonking". I can't recall seeing riders in the past coming out to the podium chewing, so I think there is something to that. Interestingly he waved away the neutral service motorbike at the bottom of the last climb, maybe because he was expecting to get something else from the team car, that he didn't get.

Exactly, intriguing stuff. You'd say Vingegaard is the favorite to overtake him for yellow at this point, taking into account how yesterday went down (and the bookies seem to agree with that), but you'd be a fool to count Pogacar out because you just never know with him. I wouldn't even rule Remco out completely, he's clearly not on their level in the mountains but he might go crazy in a stage or take advantage of Pogacar and Vingegaard (and VLAB/UAE) looking solely at each other.

I was listening to a few different podcasts yesterday evening and this morning, and there is varying degrees of criticism/confusion related to the UAE and Pogacar tactics yesterday. Armstrong, Hincapie and Wiggins were extremely critical (not that they are to be taken too seriously, but still). Why did UAE go so hard, so early to pull back the break? They really didn't need to, and spent Politt and Wellens on that. Wouldn't it have been better for Pogacar to take two of his strongest climbers with him to the last climb instead of dropping them? Why can't they get their pulling order straight going up the climbs? It didn't seem like they got much out of Almeida and Ayuso for example - Yates basically just dropped them.

Some of this is just hindsight, but I think there is also some substance to it. The point is, it seems like UAE has some work to do on the tactics if they want to win GC.

And this is just speculation, but I think Pogacar took a mental blow yesterday. This is supposed to be his terrain and I'm sure he expected to gain another 30s and take a stage win, but he got neither. And there is a contrast between the communication coming out from the UAE and Visma camps. UAE/Pogacar is all "They are scared of me" and "Now there is no more doubt about Vingegaards shape", while Visma/Vingegaard is more "We are just happy to be here" and "Let them talk, we ride our tactics". Visma just seem more calm about it.

 

[Mike Smalling]

This is very much a hindsight thing, since it looked like he had dropped Vingegaard, but pogacar really would have been better off having his team force the stage and then sprint up the mountain at the end for extra seconds. Putting both of them out on long hauls is playing into Vingegaard's biggest strength.

The only reasonable explanation for it is, a) Pogacar wanted the stage win maybe a little more than he should have. He generally wants to win every time he gets on the bike, which is cool and all, but not always compatible with winning a three week stage race. b) They wanted to recreate the Galibier scenario by creating separation over the top, extending on the descent and then hoping to keep the gap to the finish line. Only the last part didn't work out.

 

[RobinLFC]

I was listening to a few different podcasts yesterday evening and this morning, and there is varying degrees of criticism/confusion related to the UAE and Pogacar tactics yesterday. Armstrong, Hincapie and Wiggins were extremely critical (not that they are to be taken too seriously, but still). Why did UAE go so hard, so early to pull back the break? They really didn't need to, and spent Politt and Wellens on that. Wouldn't it have been better for Pogacar to take two of his strongest climbers with him to the last climb instead of dropping them? Why can't they get their pulling order straight going up the climbs? It didn't seem like they got much out of Almeida and Ayuso for example - Yates basically just dropped them.

Some of this is just hindsight, but I think there is also some substance to it. The point is, it seems like UAE has some work to do on the tactics if they want to win GC.

Yeah fair points from them and I don't disagree, but it's hindsight indeed for some part. If he has sublime legs, keeps the gap and wins with a 30-60" gap, no one bats an eyelid. It's probably what you say, focused on the stage win and wanting to make the race hard, while riding conservatively might've been the better option. The option that VLAB would've taken probably if the roles were reversed

The roles of Almeida and (especially) Ayuso need to be determined though. There's no reason why they shouldn't be 100% working for Pogacar, but he had no use for both of them yesterday. Makes no sense.

 

[Jev]

Feels like a case of resulting to be questioning UAE’s tactics yesterday. They had every reason to believe Pogacar would be the strongest and that a hard race mano a mano would favour him. They will also feel that right now is the time to increase the gap given that Vingegaard has historically been the strongest in the third week and if that proves true again, 1”15 (or 1”14) won’t be enough. With that in mind I think UAE’s tactics look sensible, and let’s not forget they were working perfectly until the balance of power between Pogi and Vingegaard suddenly switched 180. And Pogi still only lost one second. Who knows what would have happened if they had been together at the bottom of Pertus.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Feels like a case of resulting to be questioning UAE’s tactics yesterday. They had every reason to believe Pogacar would be the strongest and that a hard race mano a mano would favour him. They will also feel that right now is the time to increase the gap given that Vingegaard has historically been the strongest in the third week and if that proves true again, 1”15 (or 1”14) won’t be enough. With that in mind I think UAE’s tactics look sensible, and let’s not forget they were working perfectly until the balance of power between Pogi and Vingegaard suddenly switched 180. And Pogi still only lost one second. Who knows what would have happened if they had been together at the bottom of Pertus.

Pure guesswork, but they would probably have crossed the top together. If Pogacar doesn't go so deep on Peyrol and the descent, I don't think Vingegaard drops him on Pertus - and would Vingegaard even be interested being chased on the very technical descent afterwards?

Hindsight, speculation and all that, but I think a more conservative Pogacar gets roughly the same GC outcome yesterday with a much more moderate effort.

 

[whitbyviking]

Also quite remarkable that he commented that he had focused more on the long mountains rather than this kind of short stuff in his preparation, gives me a bit more confidence in him. Wonder if he should switch mentality now and just focus on following Vingegaard rather than trying to widen the gap. We're almost at the end of Wk 2 as well at the moment so not early in the Tour anymore.

Think Jonas will take time in the next TT, not the full gap, but he’ll definitely close it. Makes the whole dynamic interesting, especially if Jonas has 3 week fitness. If he doesn’t then it’s another layer of interest to see how much he is affected and how much it equalises his advantage in the big mountains stages.

Feels like the first time in a long time the result isn’t a foregone conclusion

 

[whitbyviking]

Pure guesswork, but they would probably have crossed the top together. If Pogacar doesn't go so deep on Peyrol and the descent, I don't think Vingegaard drops him on Pertus - and would Vingegaard even be interested being chased on the very technical descent afterwards?

Hindsight, speculation and all that, but I think a more conservative Pogacar gets roughly the same GC outcome yesterday with a much more moderate effort.

I’d agree with this, sometimes Pogacar’s hero efforts seem a bit misguided, makes him popular but probably burns too many matches for his GC efforts.

 

[RobinLFC]

Pure guesswork, but they would probably have crossed the top together. If Pogacar doesn't go so deep on Peyrol and the descent, I don't think Vingegaard drops him on Pertus - and would Vingegaard even be interested being chased on the very technical descent afterwards?

Hindsight, speculation and all that, but I think a more conservative Pogacar gets roughly the same GC outcome yesterday with a much more moderate effort.

Yeah don't think Vingegaard would've even attacked him. In hindsight, staying in a group of 5-8 people or so would've been great for Pogacar as he likely takes all seconds on top of the Pertus while the likes of Roglic could stay in front of Vingegaard, and he wins at the finish line while Vingegaard doesn't take bonification again, so in total a 10" swing from the actual outcome. Could prove nothing, could be decisive, who knows. I wouldn't be certain of victory with his 1'15" advantage in the Nice TT either given what went down last year.

Pogacar will be fully recovered by Saturday though which is the bright side of things for him. I have a fecking wedding the entire afternoon so can't even watch

 

[Mike Smalling]

Pogacar will be fully recovered by Saturday though which is the bright side of things for him.

Yes, but isn't it still a bit of a question mark how this stuff accumulates over three weeks? Especially if he mismanaged his fueling and still has the Giro in his legs. I would not be shocked if Pogacar has one of his horror days in the Pyrenees.

 

[Jev]

Pure guesswork, but they would probably have crossed the top together. If Pogacar doesn't go so deep on Peyrol and the descent, I don't think Vingegaard drops him on Pertus - and would Vingegaard even be interested being chased on the very technical descent afterwards?

Hindsight, speculation and all that, but I think a more conservative Pogacar gets roughly the same GC outcome yesterday with a much more moderate effort.

And if that happened, wouldn’t the Monday night quarterbacks now be criticizing Pogacar for not seizing a golden opportunity to put further time into Vingegaard?

 

[Mike Smalling]

And if that happened, wouldn’t the Monday night quarterbacks now be criticizing Pogacar for not seizing a golden opportunity to put further time into Vingegaard?

Maybe. Or maybe if there is bigger group going to the top and the finish line together, Pogacar takes a good chunk of bonus seconds with Vingegaard getting nothing.

Pogacar says he has trained more for the high mountain, longer climbs, but rides like he doesn't trust his current gap to Vingegaard at all. He is in the lead but constantly on the front foot.

 

[Suedesi]

As does yours.

Apart from gaining a shit load of time back on one of the riders of the generation.

Anyway, it was more a tongue in cheek comment on pathetic comments from a bitter rider, which you among others lauded as gospel.

TIL that 1 second = a shit load of time back

 

[Suedesi]

I think Remco can be pretty satisfied with his performance today. He's not on the level of Pogacar or Vingegaard in a grand tour, but he's showing himself best of the rest. Before the Tour I thought a podium finish would be a success for him, and I still believe that, so he's on course.

Felt like a mental victory for Vingegaard and you get the feeling he'll do some damage in the high mountains. For the tension in the GC battle, that's definitely a good sign.

I think you're right. I think Pogacar is racing like a knucklehead at times - all power no brains, and since Jonas can match his power (and probably exceed W/kg in high mountains) then tactics need to play a bigger role in Team UAE if they're serious about winning the Tour.

 

[RobinLFC]

I think you're right. I think Pogacar is racing like a knucklehead at times - all power no brains, and since Jonas can match his power (and probably exceed W/kg in high mountains) then tactics need to play a bigger role in Team UAE if they're serious about winning the Tour.

He apparently did 7,25 W/kg for 12 minutes on the Col de Pertus. That's so incredible that it's hard to comprehend just HOW incredible that is

 

[B20]

He apparently did 7,25 W/kg for 12 minutes on the Col de Pertus. That's so incredible that it's hard to comprehend just HOW incredible that is

And that's why I struggle to believe this generation is clean. I just don't see how improved training and gear has them smashing records set by the EPO boys in the 90s.

If it looks superhuman, it probably is.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Oh, Roglic. Losing the GC battle to a crash, yet again. Chuffed for Girmay though. That's pretty much the green jersey wrapped up.

Also, how does Wout get boxed in on sprint so often?

 

[NotThatSoph]

Oh, Roglic. Losing the GC battle to a crash, yet again. Chuffed for Girmay though. That's pretty much the green jersey wrapped up.

Also, how does Wout get boxed in on sprint so often?

Demare relegated because of that. Cavendish as well, for another incident. Avoiding getting boxed in a sprint is of course a skill, but van Aert seems to be on the receiving end of a disproportionate amount of moves leading to relegations.

Roglic is so cursed.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Demare relegated because of that. Cavendish as well, for another incident. Avoiding getting boxed in a sprint is of course a skill, but van Aert seems to be on the receiving end of a disproportionate amount of moves leading to relegations.

Indeed. And since he came back to get 2nd spot, it seem reasonable to suggest he would have won that stage.

 

[Suedesi]

I wonder if Pogacar overcooked himself a bit on the descent, where he opened up the gap quite a bit, or if he maybe mismanaged his fueling. It really didn't take long for Vingegaard to catch him up that climb, and it's quite unusual for him to lose the sprint (apparently it's his first ever loss in a two-up sprint).

I got the feeling he bonked too - whereas Jonas kept chipping at him.

 

[Suedesi]

And that's why I struggle to believe this generation is clean. I just don't see how improved training and gear has them smashing records set by the EPO boys in the 90s.

If it looks superhuman, it probably is.

That's always a risk with cycling

 

[Suedesi]

He apparently did 7,25 W/kg for 12 minutes on the Col de Pertus. That's so incredible that it's hard to comprehend just HOW incredible that is

Yup, insane

 

[Mike Smalling]

I just want a Wout van Aert stage win. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Samid]

Come on Poga!

 

[Mike Smalling]

Come on Vingo!

 

[Mike Smalling]

Huge win for Pogacar. Massive momentum swing and confidence booster. Vingegaard could sort of maintain the gap on the steeper section, but once it flattened out a bit, Pogacar could still go all out and really expand the gap. He's really been able to use that insane explosivity at the exact right moments this year to create the gap right before ideal terrain, where Jonas hasn't been able to close it.

It seems silly to declare the Tour over after every stage, as lots can still happen, but that was big. It might take one of Pogacar's patented cracks for Vingegaard to take the lead.