Cycling 2024

RobinLFC said:
Yep, see my last post above. It's the most sensible approach at the moment, but should be encouraging for Vingegaard nonetheless that he's less behind than he apparently anticipated beforehand.

You can't rule out Evenepoel just yet either though, imo it's extremely unlikely that he won't have an offday in the entire Tour or lose significant time in one of the big mountain stages, but it's also not out of the realm of possibilities that he goes on a Floyd Landis style manhunt the day after and regains all lost time.
Click to expand...

Hopefully not exactly like Landis :lol:

Remco looked a lot better up the Galibier than I had anticipated based on how he looked in the Dauphine. He's taken major strides since then.

RobinLFC said:
I know I'm overly critical towards him sometimes, but I just don't really like his mould of riders (or riders that solely focus on the Tour in general in the past). He's like a slightly less annoying, modern version of Cadel Evans :p But he doesn't do much wrong tbh, and his racing makes sense. Just a bit of a grey mouse for me, especially compared to the other stars at the moment. Having two top riders going at it with both the mindset and personality of Pogacar would be mind blowing content for cycling.
Click to expand...

I totally get it. His personality is quite boring (typical guy from Western Jutland, to be honest), he looks a bit awkward on the bike, he rides methodically, and when on form he is simply the best Grand Tour rider right now. I'd say most Danish cycling fans generally like Mads Pedersen a lot more (I'd take a Pedersen monument win over another Vingeaard Tour win).

He can't hold a candle to Pogacar in terms excitement or likability, but I do think there is something interesting in having two contrasting styles go up against each other in the Tour. And as other's have pointed out, people would probably have gotten sick of the Pogacar domination if he hadn't been there.
 
Jev said:
I mean, Vingegaard is a super boring guy, from a personality perspective I get why he puts people to sleep. But Evans? The guy who hardly ever attacked? That’s a really harsh comparison. Vingegaard didn’t win two times by hugging Pogi’s wheel and beating him on the ITT. In 2022 Visma went all out midway through a stage, midway through the Tour. It’s only when he gets his lead that he rides unneccessarily defensively but last year’s Tour would hardly have been more entertaining if Vingegaard had put another five minutes into Pogi.
Click to expand...
That's why I said "slightly less annoying" :lol: He at least went for it when he had to and did what he had to do the last two years, so gotta give him that indeed.

Mike Smalling said:
Hopefully not exactly like Landis :lol:

Remco looked a lot better up the Galibier than I had anticipated based on how he looked in the Dauphine. He's taken major strides since then.



I totally get it. His personality is quite boring (typical guy from Western Jutland, to be honest), he looks a bit awkward on the bike, he rides methodically, and when on form he is simply the best Grand Tour rider right now. I'd say most Danish cycling fans generally like Mads Pedersen a lot more (I'd take a Pedersen monument win over another Vingeaard Tour win).

He can't hold a candle to Pogacar in terms excitement or likability, but I do think there is something interesting in having two contrasting styles go up against each other in the Tour. And as other's have pointed out, people would probably have gotten sick of the Pogacar domination if he hadn't been there.
Click to expand...
Yeah fair enough.

I also wouldn't mind a Pedersen monument win at all. Has gotten very close in all three of San Remo, Ronde and Roubaix the last few years, hopefully for him everything falls into place in one of the editions the next few years.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I'd argue it isn't similar at all. England are through to the semi-final as much by chance, as by design. They needed a 95th minute wonder-goal and a penalty shootout to be where they are. In a way the lack of quality in what England have done has increased the risk for them.

Vingegaard rides defensively in a very deliberate way to maximize his chances. I don't think Southgate's management has maximized England's chances at all.
Click to expand...

It has. Playing swashbuckling football with more talented individuals got England nowhere. Sir Gareth knows that by playing defensively he will maximize his teams chances, and it's gotten him to a WC semi, a Euro final and a Euro Semi (to be continued).
 
RobinLFC said:
Each rider is different of course, but their sentiment/expectation last year was that Pogacar would fall off a cliff in the third week because of a lack of preparation due to his injury, and now they seem to think that Vingegaard will be at his best in week 3 because of his injury. Doesn't really make sense to me.
Click to expand...

I think Visma is confident they will be able to shake Tadej on the high mountain stages, that's what I meant. They don't even seem worried about Remco or Primoz at all.
 
Jev said:
I mean, Vingegaard is a super boring guy, from a personality perspective I get why he puts people to sleep. But Evans? The guy who hardly ever attacked? That’s a really harsh comparison. Vingegaard didn’t win two times by hugging Pogi’s wheel and beating him on the ITT. In 2022 Visma went all out midway through a stage, midway through the Tour. It’s only when he gets his lead that he rides unneccessarily defensively but last year’s Tour would hardly have been more entertaining if Vingegaard had put another five minutes into Pogi.
Click to expand...


Most cycling fans agree that Tadej is the best cyclist in the world, but Jonas is the better gran tour rider, and part of it has to do with Jumbo being a better team. From calculating each rider's macros for each stage to bringing customized mattresses for each rider that get swapped out at every hotel, they're all marginal gains and they've proved they can make a ! Tactically, they're just superior.

In 2022, they succeeded with Merijn Zeeman's master plan of using two leaders to relentlessly attack Pogacar until he cracked. Last year, they tactically dismantled UAE Team, with only Pogacar's legs keeping it close until the time trial stage. Even the bike change in the TT was a blunder. Jonas is a brilliant rider who races intelligently, while Pogi can be a bit of a knucklehead, sometimes attacking needlessly—but as a fan, that's exactly why I love him.
 
Suedesi said:
It has. Playing swashbuckling football with more talented individuals got England nowhere. Sir Gareth knows that by playing defensively he will maximize his teams chances, and it's gotten him to a WC semi, a Euro final and a Euro Semi (to be continued).
Click to expand...

It hasn’t. This discussion has been done to death elsewhere, but Southgate has gotten those results by the luck of the draw more than anything. If not for a once-in-a-career type goal, his management would have England out of the Euros in the round of 16 having only faced average teams. There is nothing deliberate about it.

And it’s not about defensive vs. attacking football. There are plenty of examples of defensive teams set up masterfully. This England team isn’t one of them.
 
The idea that Southgate's tactics are somehow effective if you need a 96th minute bicycle kick equaliser to stay in the tournament against Slovakia and another penalty shootout is laughable.

It's even more bizarre to compare that to Vingegaard. Vingegaard has won his Tours with devastating attacks that left no doubt as to who was the stronger participant on the day. When has that ever been the case for England this tournament? :lol:
 
Pogacar was complaining after the stage, in a way that is somewhat relevant to the discussion above. He was saying that Vingegaard/Visma are focusing solely on him, and underrating other riders. I'm not sure if that's true, I think it's more that after two wins in a row Vingegaard doesn't give a shit about podiums (sponsors might care more). Remco and Roglic might be seen an serious competitors, but still clearly weaker than Pogacar. If Vingegaard is strong enough to beat Pogacar, then he'll likely beat the others by default, unless it's because of a crash or illness. If he's not strong enough to beat Pogacar, then it doesn't really matter if he's strong enough to beat Remco or Roglic, so he or his team won't be investing resources into gapping them.
 
Mike Smalling said:
It hasn’t. This discussion has been done to death elsewhere, but Southgate has gotten those results by the luck of the draw more than anything. If not for a once-in-a-career type goal, his management would have England out of the Euros in the round of 16 having only faced average teams. There is nothing deliberate about it.

And it’s not about defensive vs. attacking football. There are plenty of examples of defensive teams set up masterfully. This England team isn’t one of them.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't care to discuss England on this thread - I just think Sir Gareth for all his faults has gotten decent results and has come up with a strategy that by and large has produced results, whilst not playing swashbuckling football. Kinda like Visma.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Pogacar was complaining after the stage, in a way that is somewhat relevant to the discussion above. He was saying that Vingegaard/Visma are focusing solely on him, and underrating other riders. I'm not sure if that's true, I think it's more that after two wins in a row Vingegaard doesn't give a shit about podiums (sponsors might care more). Remco and Roglic might be seen an serious competitors, but still clearly weaker than Pogacar. If Vingegaard is strong enough to beat Pogacar, then he'll likely beat the others by default, unless it's because of a crash or illness. If he's not strong enough to beat Pogacar, then it doesn't really matter if he's strong enough to beat Remco or Roglic, so he or his team won't be investing resources into gapping them.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't think they fear Roglic at all. They have all his power data and probably know Primoz better than Bora does.

I feel they’re confident in shaking Remco off in the mountainous stages, like Stage 19, for example. Their goals have been to (i) not lose meaningful time to Pogacar and (ii) frustrate him to the maximum. So far, they've done a fantastic job at both.
 
There'll be fireworks today, wonder what Pogacar has in store given the way he has the peloton chasing after the breakaway. It'll happen on the Puy Mary or (more likely imo) the Col de Pertus, both roughly 5k at 8% so no joke.
 
There goes that man... Earlier than I expected.

Remco not even able to follow Roglic and Vingegaard now either. What a bloodbath.
 
We've seen this before, where Vingegaard slowly claws back some time after a big acceleration from Pogacar. He looks in pretty good shape.
 
If he had some balls, then he could have attacked before Pogacar, worked up a lead by going deep into the red zone, and then prayed that it would hold.
 
Can't shake the feeling that Pogacar has already peaked and Vingegaard is growing into it, even if they finish in the same time today this must feel like a mental defeat for Pogacar after the way it all went down. These are the stages he should be gaining time in, although we are not sure (yet) that Vingegaard will be able to drop him in the mountains.
 
NotThatSoph said:
If he had some balls, then he could have attacked before Pogacar, worked up a lead by going deep into the red zone, and then prayed that it would hold.
Click to expand...
One of the more stupid things I've read in this thread. As if Pogacar would've let him go / wouldn't instruct the likes of Almeida and Ayuso to furiously go after him.
 
You gotta say this bodes really well for Vingegaard. Clawing back 30-35 seconds on that climb was impressive. Vingegaard's shape deep into the race will still be a question mark, but this is exactly what Visma would have wanted to see.
 
Remco should hopefully think twice about talking about balls after that pitiful performance. Maybe he can join the big boys in a few years
 
Impressive from Vingegaard. You hate to see it.

Remco also nice gain on Roglic who had his yearly Tour crash in the last descent.
 
Ralaks said:
Remco should hopefully think twice about talking about balls after that pitiful performance. Maybe he can join the big boys in a few years
Click to expand...
Sure thing mate. World champion, TT world champion, multiple monuments winner, Grand Tour winner and a stage winner in every grand Tour aged 24.

Cycling is more than the Tour alone, he has his place amongst the "big boys" as much, if not more than Vingegaard. Your location checks out though.

Exactly what kind of balls did he lack today or what kind of balls did Vingegaard show?
 
Has Vingegaard ever beat Pogacar on the line before? I can't remember it, if he has.

Roglic biggest challenge remains staying on his bike.
 
RobinLFC said:
Sure thing mate. World champion, TT world champion, multiple monuments winner, Grand Tour winner and a stage winner in every grand Tour aged 24.

Cycling is more than the Tour alone, he has his place amongst the "big boys" as much, if not more than Vingegaard. Your location checks out though.

Exactly what kind of balls did he lack today or what kind of balls did Vingegaard show?
Click to expand...

As does yours. ;)

Apart from gaining a shit load of time back on one of the riders of the generation.

Anyway, it was more a tongue in cheek comment on pathetic comments from a bitter rider, which you among others lauded as gospel.
 
Really impressive ride from Vingegaard to claw back that gap all alone. Looks like the favourite for me now. Pogacar was gassed and we’ve seen this before with Vingegaard gradually becoming stronger as the race goes on. Pogi does not look his absolute best, maybe a bit of Giro tax.
 
Ralaks said:
As does yours. ;)

Apart from gaining a shit load of time back on one of the riders of the generation.

Anyway, it was more a tongue in cheek comment on pathetic comments from a bitter rider, which you among others lauded as gospel.
Click to expand...
I literally said that I hadn't heard the actual quote in full and would be happy to hear that I was wrong, how's that lauding it as gospel? The balls quote was true regardless of what happened today, nothing wrong with that and not so hard to admit either.

Also, it was never in question that Vingegaard would be better than Evenepoel in the GC, so not sure why they are being compared. His performances should only be compared to Pogacar, that's why today was a victory for him, Remco is irrelevant for him.
 
RobinLFC said:
I literally said that I hadn't heard the actual quote in full and would be happy to hear that I was wrong, how's that lauding it as gospel? The balls quote was true regardless of what happened today, nothing wrong with that and not so hard to admit either.
Click to expand...
How was it true? Haven’t you admitted yourself that it would have been idiotic from Vingegaard to go alone with Remco and Pogacar?
 
RobinLFC said:
I literally said that I hadn't heard the actual quote in full and would be happy to hear that I was wrong, how's that lauding it as gospel? The balls quote was true regardless of what happened today, nothing wrong with that and not so hard to admit either.

Also, it was never in question that Vingegaard would be better than Evenepoel in the GC, so not sure why they are being compared. His performances should only be compared to Pogacar, that's why today was a victory for him, Remco is irrelevant for him.
Click to expand...

Okay mate

Anyways, he dishes out, I am sure he can take some banter back, even if you cant ;)
 
Jev said:
How was it true? Haven’t you admitted yourself that it would have been idiotic from Vingegaard to go alone with Remco and Pogacar?
Click to expand...
It's true in general, not just related to that stage. Vingegaard has never shown that he has the balls to actually "gung ho race" or do something which wasn't premeditated as the likes of Remco/Pogacar have.

The craziest thing I've seen him do is probably attack on the Tourmalet with 50k to go but once again that was the team's plan that day and he had multiple domestiques in front to help him should anything go awry.

It doesn't take away from his accomplishments. But he's not a rider with big balls, simple as.
 
Ralaks said:
Okay mate

Anyways, he dishes out, I am sure he can take some banter back, even if you cant ;)
Click to expand...
Remco can, yeah, no doubt. I can too, but your post was just unnecessary and not true ("pitiful performance", "join the big boys", sure). Checks out that it's your first post in this thread, some Danes only seem to come out of the woodwork once their annual cycling event is on.
 
RobinLFC said:
Remco can, yeah, no doubt. I can too, but your post was just unnecessary and not true ("pitiful performance", "join the big boys", sure). Checks out that it's your first post in this thread, some Danes only seem to come out of the woodwork once their annual cycling event is on.
Click to expand...

It was as unnecessary and not true as Remco's comments.

Like clockwork. One of my favorite times on the cafe is your yearly going on about casual tour fans, too predictable! You need new material. Its true I mainly care about posting during the tour, but I barely post in the first place anyway, but nonetheless watch most of the classics.
 
I think Remco can be pretty satisfied with his performance today. He's not on the level of Pogacar or Vingegaard in a grand tour, but he's showing himself best of the rest. Before the Tour I thought a podium finish would be a success for him, and I still believe that, so he's on course.

Felt like a mental victory for Vingegaard and you get the feeling he'll do some damage in the high mountains. For the tension in the GC battle, that's definitely a good sign.
 
RobinLFC said:
It's true in general, not just related to that stage. Vingegaard has never shown that he has the balls to actually "gung ho race" or do something which wasn't premeditated as the likes of Remco/Pogacar have.

The craziest thing I've seen him do is probably attack on the Tourmalet with 50k to go but once again that was the team's plan that day and he had multiple domestiques in front to help him should anything go awry.

It doesn't take away from his accomplishments. But he's not a rider with big balls, simple as.
Click to expand...

I see, so when Vingegaard attacks all-out halfway through a stage halfway through the Tour, it doesn’t count because it wasn’t his plan (unlike when Remco or Pogi attacks, I suppose?) and he has good teammates (unlike the other two?). Basically Vingegaard lacks balls because he doesn’t ride like an idiot.

You are just as biased as you accuse others of being and your arrogant belittling of ‘casual’ fans is not a great look.
 
Why is Roglic getting the same time as Remco? Thought that only was a rule on flat stages?
 
People just object to the "balls" stuff, because the implication is that he would have balls if he did something that isn't logical for his race. If balls means attacking left and right with little thought to what it means in the bigger picture, then yeah, he doesn't have them. That wouldn't be my definition, but who cares. Vingegaard didn't seem to mind.

In the bigger picture, this rivalry is really great for the Tour. The GC will remain pretty unpredictable going into week three, and that's really all we can ask for.
 
RobinLFC said:
Can't shake the feeling that Pogacar has already peaked and Vingegaard is growing into it, even if they finish in the same time today this must feel like a mental defeat for Pogacar after the way it all went down. These are the stages he should be gaining time in, although we are not sure (yet) that Vingegaard will be able to drop him in the mountains.
Click to expand...

I was telling my Mrs extensively that Jonas will win this tour, think he will smoke Pogi in the high mountains. Even made her listen to G’s podcast where he was saying the same :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.