Remco 34 seconds under Roglic.
Cycling 2024
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
Tadej 12 seconds behind Remco, second
Wouldn't say a disappointment, 22 seconds behind Pogacar is pretty good for him.
As I said earlier, Remco will be fine. He's clearly coming into shape and today's result (yes I know he's a TT specialist) will do him a world of good.
Argh, Mads Pedersen out after his crash the other day. Chances of a Danish stage win just went down quite a bit.
Girmay beating Philipsen on the line is a nice little way of getting back at Alpecin after what happened with MVDP last year.
Quite remarkable that Philipsen hasn’t managed a win yet after so many sprint stages. Today maybe wasn’t really his type of finish, but still.
Quite remarkable that Philipsen hasn’t managed a win yet after so many sprint stages. Today maybe wasn’t really his type of finish, but still.
Solo attack Remco at 77k from the finish. What are you doing man 
Vingegaard not making himself popular once again.
With who exactly? Evenepoel because he doesn't want to help him win the stage?
Evenepoel, Pogacar and cycling fans outside Denmark.
Right move but boring stuff.
He'd be considered an idiot by cycling fans in general if he worked with Pogacar and Evenepoel so one of them could win the stage and both of them take bonus seconds off him. He's not even on his own bike.
Nah, we’d gain some respect for him.
No chance. He doesn't have a choice, and you know it.
Yes, I already said it was the right move.
I don't get cycling fans sometimes. It's obviously not Vingegaard's best terrain, but we'd respect him if he'd go for a suicidal move that would most likely feck his own chances?
Strong Jürgen Klopp vibes. “Why didn’t Burnley play total football instead of playing for the 0-0 draw?”.
I get that sometimes defensive cycling can be a bit dull, but it would literally be moronic for him to not cycle defensively today.
The guy sticks out like a sore thumb in an era of open-minded, attacking racing. So yes, in my case, I'd have more respect for Vingegaard if he said "feck it" today and showed some balls rather than did what he did, even if he lost time (which is not a certainty either). Was Remco solo attacking a good idea or "the right choice"? No, but he still did it anyway.
Comments after the stage were poor as well that white roads "don't belong in the Tour De France". Feck off and learn to ride them, dude - not up to you to decide what should or shouldn't be included in the Tour in order to win it.
Okay, now check how many people complain about park the bus tactics when a football game is on. Not too hard to understand why people actively dislike Vingegaard then.
I think the people who complain about park the bus tactics are just as dumb as people who complain about defensive riding in the Tour de France. Teams across sports will select the tactics that give them the best chances of achieving their goals. That's not new and not worth complaining about. And I think it's even more childish when it comes from people directly associated with the sport, like the Klopp example or Evenepoels "lack of balls" comments today.
Riders like Pogacar and Evenpoel will naturally be more popular than Vingegaard, because they can do more things and ride more aggressively on a variety of stages. That's how it should be. But you can't expect Vingegaard to ruin his own chances to gain a few brownie points with the neutral fan.
Today's situation wasn't even a gray area where it maybe would have worked out for him. If that trio had caught the break, he would have just been isolated with two far more explosive riders and several gravel sections to go. It makes zero sense to whine about his tactics.
I know you're just repeating what Evenpoel said with the balls thing, but that's pretty silly. Doing something risky with no potential upside isn't "ballsy", it's just idiotic. Pogacar's and Evenpoel's attacks were risky, but they did it because it could have worked out for them. Vingegaard had nothing to gain.
I didn't expect him to ruin his own chances, nor did I whine about his tactics. I said from the beginning that it was the right move, just that he wasn't making himself popular once again. Which is simply true.
I don't agree. Using stupid tactics isn't the way to get popular. Anyway, this isn't his terrain. Let's see what he does in the Pyrenees in the weekend. Unlike the previous two years, he won't have the team to set a hard pace and then eventually drop Pogacar, so he will probably have to do something on his own eventually, if he has the legs to win it.
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He isn't making himself popular with people who've already made up their minds about him anyway. I just think some perspective is needed.
He's up against Pogacar, a two time winner of the Strade Bianche, one with a 50km solo and the other with an 80km solo and god knows how many minutes, in a gravel stage in the Tour. Isolating himself from his own team mates, against that guy, at about 75km from the finish, would be a braindead move of epic proportions.
Not to mention Vingegaard was clearly the lesser of the three during the stage itself, he already had to rely on his team mates to close a couple of gaps, and he rode half the stage on Tratnik's bike. The circumstances were completely against him.
He's just a different type of rider to Pogacar or Evenepoel. He knows his limits and he knows what he needs to do to give himself the best chances in the third week. It's understandable that other riders are more popular, but you're always so harsh on the guy, as if he doesn't deserve to be where he is or something.
Let's just say we can count our lucky stars that he's even around, because without him, the last 2 Tours would've been processions like this year's Giro. Maybe those are great for the history books, and it certainly would've been deserved, but it's not something I enjoy watching.
The Danish wheelsucker made the right call by riding defensively. Remco, Tadej, and their fans were also right to call him out for it.
Jonas is focused on winning the TDF, but fans want to see spectacular stages filled with attacks and counterattacks.
In the end, it's similar to criticizing Gareth Southgate for playing boring football—he's winning and has England in another semifinal.
English fans won't care about the quality of football if he wins the cup, while fans from other nations will be exasperated by the tedious spectacle of England's matches.
Winning and entertaining are two different goals.
Jonas is focused on winning the TDF, but fans want to see spectacular stages filled with attacks and counterattacks.
In the end, it's similar to criticizing Gareth Southgate for playing boring football—he's winning and has England in another semifinal.
English fans won't care about the quality of football if he wins the cup, while fans from other nations will be exasperated by the tedious spectacle of England's matches.
Winning and entertaining are two different goals.
It’ll be interesting to see whether Remco attacks on Jonas’ territory since he’s currently all about the balls. I like Remco but he does come across as a bit impetuous.
Remco attacks when he's feeling good, regardless of terrain or race plan. If he doesn't attack in the mountains it won't be because a lack of balls, but because he simply can't.
I didn't hear the full interview but I also don't think he called out Vingegaard for not having big balls or anything like that. He was quoting a famous Tom Boonen quote from the past and immediately followed up on that with "but I understand that gameplan doesn't always allow for that". So certainly don't think the actual quote was "sometimes you just need big balls and today Jonas Vingegaard didn't have them", which is what some media are making it out to be. Could be wrong though since like I said, didn't hear the entire thing in one go.
Okay scratch everything I said
Seems obvious to me that Remco would be fine with finishing podium in his first Tour, so I get that he was disappointed with the outcome - if they stay in front with the three of them he could've gained multiple minutes on Roglic and the other pretenders.
Vingegaard doesn't care about making up time on Roglic (or Evenepoel, for that matter, because Jorgenson didn't even pull when Evenepoel was caught behind at one point). They are solely focused on Pogacar, but makes sense given it's still likely that Remco will have at least one offday or simply won't be good enough in the mountains.
Yeah, I don't think Visma fear Remco or Roglic at all. They just know that Jonas will be able to do his thing on week 3, so they're just focused on Tadej and not losing a lot of time to him.
I'd argue it isn't similar at all. England are through to the semi-final as much by chance, as by design. They needed a 95th minute wonder-goal and a penalty shootout to be where they are. In a way the lack of quality in what England have done has increased the risk for them.
Vingegaard rides defensively in a very deliberate way to maximize his chances. I don't think Southgate's management has maximized England's chances at all.
Each rider is different of course, but their sentiment/expectation last year was that Pogacar would fall off a cliff in the third week because of a lack of preparation due to his injury, and now they seem to think that Vingegaard will be at his best in week 3 because of his injury. Doesn't really make sense to me.
I think a perspective forgotten here is also that of (amateur) cycling experts vs more casual viewers. People who really know cycling will probably understand the reasons behind Vingegaard's approach, and are therefore more likely to respect and maybe even appreciate his decision. More casual viewers might not know that and anyway might be watching mostly for the fun and action - which someone driving defensively doesn't offer.
Similarly, I think most casual football watchers hate bus parking, because it's stiffles the action (for both teams); while more tactically aware watchers might more often be able to appreciate the intricacies of the tactical game.
I don't think Jonas, Visma or anyone else knows where he will be in week 3. It's pure guess work. And I don't think they care much if he finishes 2nd, 3rd or 4th if it comes to that, and that's what they base their strategy on. If he has the legs towards the end he can challenge Pogacar, and will almost certainly take the necessary time on Roglic and Remco as well. And if he doesn't have the legs, he won't have lost GC because he didn't take a minute on Roglic on the gravel stage.
Yeah it makes sense to just limit any time loss right now to the absolute minimum when he can't follow Pogacar, and then just see where they're at in Week 3. Better to throw it all out there in Stage 20 or the last time trail in Nice rather than already losing it all in Week 1.
You're right that the Tour de France brings out all the more casual cycling viewers, of course, but my impression is that the criticism comes from fans that follow the entire calendar as well.
I found it all a bit silly, because yesterday's stage was still extremely watchable regardless of how Vingegaard rode. It's not like he nullified the racing across the entire stage.
They don’t have much choice, do they? Right now it’s pretty clear that Pogacar is a little bit better. Visma’s only real hope is that Vingegaard can ride his way into his best shape by the third week and exploit the terrain then.
Yep, see my last post above. It's the most sensible approach at the moment, but should be encouraging for Vingegaard nonetheless that he's less behind than he apparently anticipated beforehand.
You can't rule out Evenepoel just yet either though, imo it's extremely unlikely that he won't have an offday in the entire Tour or lose significant time in one of the big mountain stages, but it's also not out of the realm of possibilities that he goes on a Floyd Landis style manhunt the day after and regains all lost time.
I know I'm overly critical towards him sometimes, but I just don't really like his mould of riders (or riders that solely focus on the Tour in general in the past). He's like a slightly less annoying, modern version of Cadel Evans
But he doesn't do much wrong tbh, and his racing makes sense. Just a bit of a grey mouse for me, especially compared to the other stars at the moment. Having two top riders going at it with both the mindset and personality of Pogacar would be mind blowing content for cycling.I mean, Vingegaard is a super boring guy, from a personality perspective I get why he puts people to sleep. But Evans? The guy who hardly ever attacked? That’s a really harsh comparison. Vingegaard didn’t win two times by hugging Pogi’s wheel and beating him on the ITT. In 2022 Visma went all out midway through a stage, midway through the Tour. It’s only when he gets his lead that he rides unneccessarily defensively but last year’s Tour would hardly have been more entertaining if Vingegaard had put another five minutes into Pogi.I know I'm overly critical towards him sometimes, but I just don't really like his mould of riders (or riders that solely focus on the Tour in general in the past). He's like a slightly less annoying, modern version of Cadel Evans